Democrats face a pretty bleak future

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desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101

Some areas the primary is more competitive than the general.

HRC never say, started small, like Sarah Palin. As they say, the first million is the hardest to get. The first few elected seats where you're in charge of a small town, then state, is the hard part.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
LOL. New York, which had a deep bench of candidates, and the only candidate who dared oppose Hillary was Lazio, a DINO.

Competitive election not found.

Off into the post-truth twilight zone, huh?

You said she ran unopposed, which is false. Deal with it.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Off into the post-truth twilight zone, huh?

You said she ran unopposed, which is false. Deal with it.
Lazio was not opposition. My point still stands. She has never won a competive election. The Clinton fan club is the reason we have a Trump Presidency. Deal with it.

I guarantee Obama is starting to question his decision to get in bed with the Clintons. His legacy is now at stake because it was her turn.
 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
Lazio was not opposition. My point still stands. She has never won a competive election. The Clinton fan club is the reason we have a Trump Presidency. Deal with it.
Hello, Lazio was a 4 term Republican Congressman from Long Island. He was the Republican nominee for the seat. Do you understand how elections work? He stepped in after mayor 9-11 decided to not challenge Clinton after he got prostate cancer. Lazio spent 40 million against her, in one of the most expensive NY Senate races to date. He sent a fundraiser which said .... my name is Rick Lazio and I am running against Hillary Rodham Clinton. Please send me money.

The voters are responsible for Trump and he good or bad along with George W Bush will be the face of the modern GOP for decades.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Hello, Lazio was a 4 term Republican Congressman from Long Island. He was the Republican nominee for the seat. Do you understand how elections work? He stepped in after mayor 9-11 decided to not challenge Clinton after he got prostate cancer. Lazio spent 40 million against her, in one of the most expensive NY Senate races to date. He sent a fundraiser which said .... my name is Rick Lazio and I am running against Hillary Rodham Clinton. Please send me money.

The voters are responsible for Trump and he good or bad along with George W Bush will be the face of the modern GOP for decades.
Do you know how NY politics work? What do you call a candidate who has no ties to a geography or electorate, but moves there solely to run for office. I believe carpet bagger is the word.

Clinton carpetbagged into the Democrat nomination. Guiliani perhaps would have given Clinton a run for her money given his popularity and name recognition at the time.

Lazio didn't stand a chance in hell for Moynihan's seat.
 

chowderhead

Platinum Member
Dec 7, 1999
2,633
263
126
Do you know how NY politics work? What do you call a candidate who has no ties to a geography or electorate, but moves there solely to run for office. I believe carpet bagger is the word.

Clinton carpetbagged into the Democrat nomination. Guiliani perhaps would have given Clinton a run for her money given his popularity and name recognition at the time.

Lazio didn't stand a chance in hell for Moynihan's seat.

I understand the difference between "DINO" and a Republican House member from Long Island.
I also understand that the voters of New York saw both candidates and voted for the one they wanted to represent them. New York also has one of the largest population of people from other states and other countries. It is a state where people move to so I am sure the electorate was receptive to people moving there from other places. She faced 40 million dollars, the NY media, a credible opponent, and she won.
She lost this 2016 election and she is probably done for electoral politics so I don't get the fixation and hatred.
Republicans should focus their energy on kicking people off health care, tax cuts for their cronies, banning abortions and throwing doctors in jail, and making laws about which bathrooms people need to use. They won and they should start doing the things they have been telling their supporters what they planning to do.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
I understand the difference between "DINO" and a Republican House member from Long Island.
I also understand that the voters of New York saw both candidates and voted for the one they wanted to represent them. She faced 40 million dollars, the NY media, a credible opponent, and she won.
She lost this 2016 election and she is probably done for electoral politics so I don't get the fixation and hatred.
Republicans should focus their energy on kicking people off health care, tax cuts for their cronies, banning abortions and throwing doctors in jail, and making laws about which bathrooms people need to use. They won and they should start doing the things they have been telling their supporters what they planning to do.
Ohhh. The DINO was a typo. I had started to type a point about Moynihan being a DINO given some of his distate for the emergent progressive left. Looking back at what I wrote now I see the confusion.
My mistake.

Moynihan was a great man. I met him a few times as I did not grow up far from one of his NY offices. He was very active with NY high school students interested in military service. I met him when debating between Navy and Army service.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
Lazio was not opposition. My point still stands. She has never won a competive election. The Clinton fan club is the reason we have a Trump Presidency. Deal with it.

I guarantee Obama is starting to question his decision to get in bed with the Clintons. His legacy is now at stake because it was her turn.

Your point is a faceplant & your unwillingness to man up to it a really huge facepalm.

Hillary hate is a disease of the mind still strongly affecting the vulnerable even though she's now out of the picture. Get over it.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Your point is a faceplant & your unwillingness to man up to it a really huge facepalm.

Hillary hate is a disease of the mind still strongly affecting the vulnerable even though she's now out of the picture. Get over it.
See post 159. The only faceplant was on election night, and it was vindicating.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
126
What's weird is GOP is having such a hard time coming up with a successful health care plan, when there are dozens of countries with successful health care plans they could just copy. I mean it's a party that not just can't come up with a plan, but can't even copy someone else's.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
What's weird is GOP is having such a hard time coming up with a successful health care plan, when there are dozens of countries with successful health care plans they could just copy. I mean it's a party that not just can't come up with a plan, but can't even copy someone else's.
Which one should we copy?
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
The big problem with Obamacare imo is the regulations which cover a variety of things which are best left for the private market. For instance, while no one would object for insurance for cancer or heart disease, there is reason to object to transgender treatment being put into the pool of mandated coverages, which Obamacare does. It also mandates coverage of birth control--now, while I am in favor of it for population control reasons, birth control is one of those non-essential things that Obamacare mandates, and which is better left to the private market for purchase individually.
 

Starbuck1975

Lifer
Jan 6, 2005
14,698
1,909
126
Pick one. Swiss? Or they are socialists too?
Preaching to the choir. I lived in Europe for many years and was amazed by the quality of life and relative government efficiencies of their services and health care. Germany, Switzerland, Sweden perhaps. Was curious which one you find most appealing.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The big problem with Obamacare imo is the regulations which cover a variety of things which are best left for the private market. For instance, while no one would object for insurance for cancer or heart disease, there is reason to object to transgender treatment being put into the pool of mandated coverages, which Obamacare does.

False-

https://www.healthcare.gov/transgender-health-care/

It also mandates coverage of birth control--now, while I am in favor of it for population control reasons, birth control is one of those non-essential things that Obamacare mandates, and which is better left to the private market for purchase individually.

It's better left to the private market because (insert "reasons" here).
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
It's better left to the private market because (insert "reasons" here).

Because paying for stuff via insurance is more expensive than paying for it out of pocket, and so what insurance pays for should be limited to catastrophic events like cancer and not for recurring fairly small sum things like birth control.

Effectively it does mandate, or did mandate, gender reassigment surgery.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/02/politics/obamacare-transgender-protection/

Also from that link, there is this little gem:

"These transgender health insurance exclusions may be unlawful sex discrimination. The health care law prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex, among other bases, in certain health programs and activities."

which of course is a pedestrian-worded threatening phrase.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
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Because paying for stuff via insurance is more expensive than paying for it out of pocket, and so what insurance pays for should be limited to catastrophic events like cancer and not for recurring fairly small sum things like birth control.

You cite facts not in evidence & make false assignations as to the purposes of health insurance. Decent employer sponsored plans have been a lot more comprehensive than that since forever.

Effectively it does mandate, or did mandate, gender reassigment surgery.

http://www.cnn.com/2017/01/02/politics/obamacare-transgender-protection/

Also from that link, there is this little gem:

"These transgender health insurance exclusions may be unlawful sex discrimination. The health care law prohibits discrimination on the basis of sex, among other bases, in certain health programs and activities."

which of course is a pedestrian-worded threatening phrase.

You asserted that the ACA covers transgender surgery. I linked to the horse's mouth, the govt site, which specifically states that's not necessarily true at all. "May be unlawful" isn't much of a threat, either.
 

desura

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2013
4,627
129
101
You cite facts not in evidence & make false assignations as to the purposes of health insurance. Decent employer sponsored plans have been a lot more comprehensive than that since forever.



You asserted that the ACA covers transgender surgery. I linked to the horse's mouth, the govt site, which specifically states that's not necessarily true at all. "May be unlawful" isn't much of a threat, either.

The regulations and subsequent court rulings likely did increase transgender coverage.

As for paying for things via insurance, it is common knowledge that paying through insurance is more expensive than paying out of pocket. Which is why insurance is used for unforseen accidents and not for predictable and recurring events most of the time. For instance, car insurance doesn't pay for routine car maintenance.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,681
136
The regulations and subsequent court rulings likely did increase transgender coverage.

Mere assertion.

As for paying for things via insurance, it is common knowledge that paying through insurance is more expensive than paying out of pocket. Which is why insurance is used for unforseen accidents and not for predictable and recurring events most of the time. For instance, car insurance doesn't pay for routine car maintenance.

As for the existing model of group healthcare insurance in America you're all wet. It's never worked that way.
 

MrSquished

Lifer
Jan 14, 2013
21,271
19,762
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The regulations and subsequent court rulings likely did increase transgender coverage.

As for paying for things via insurance, it is common knowledge that paying through insurance is more expensive than paying out of pocket. Which is why insurance is used for unforseen accidents and not for predictable and recurring events most of the time. For instance, car insurance doesn't pay for routine car maintenance.

auto mechanics and medical coverage are not the same thing.

I use my insurance primarily to cover a single prescription drug that would be over $1,000 a month without insurance. My other couple drugs aren't much, but will also be cheaper per month. After my monthly insurance premium, the co-pay for the drugs, I make out significantly. At the same time it's also something to have in case of an emergency like an ER visit, god forbid. But it will still mitigate the cost of doctors visits and things like that along the way.

I can imagine others who have illnesses that require them to go to multiple doctor visits per year plus other expensive care, as well as their prescriptions. Now that you can't deny coverage for pre-existing conditions.

Sure some people just use insurance only for large unforseen events. Like my friend, who got one of the most basic bronze plans this year. Just to cover a catastrophic event. So yes that can be a primary usage.

But not for all, by any means.
 

senseamp

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,195
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Preaching to the choir. I lived in Europe for many years and was amazed by the quality of life and relative government efficiencies of their services and health care. Germany, Switzerland, Sweden perhaps. Was curious which one you find most appealing.
I think Swiss or German would be good. But they have individual mandate, and Republicans have demagogued that to death, and of course cost controls instead of the blank checks GOP likes to write.
 
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Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
33,445
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It can't be too bright. If you erect too many safety nets you will inevitably block out the sun, and yet you're celebrating making them wider.

Then we will fight in the shade. /ref

Economics is quite a large and imposing subject. I too first thought that cutting government and lifting people's freedom from it would be a rising tide. That sounds good and tickles my Libertarian heart. Turns out, like most wealth, any increased profits from that policy is largely collected and siphoned off. Workers feeling just a trickle, if anything. As a trend that has continued since before my birth, I'm confident that it has both failed and lead us to this point.

First, you need some perspective... a sense of history. My parents speak of how well paid labor was in the 60s. Working as a machinist back then supposedly resulted in more value to that single worker than a low 6 figure income today. They "ate and lived better" on a single worker's income. Impossible you say? Inequality For All verifies the essential parts. Both with case samples, and in totality. The value of labor has, and continues to, decline sharply.

"But the world is still moving along just fine!" You might say. Hah, no it is not. There were 3 major coping mechanisms that have forestalled economic collapse. Women entered the workforce to turn single worker households into dual worker. This dramatically increased their wealth.... for a time. In the 90s they worked longer hours to keep up with rising prices. In the 2000s more people plunged into poverty, but those who could afford it played a shell game with housing and debt. In 2008 their bubble burst. Today.... is our reckoning. No more spouses to enlist, no more extra hours or extra jobs to grab. No more free housing, loans are scarce, and debts are being called in. The dot com bust followed by the Great Recession marks the next stage of a long and arduous decent into poverty and welfare. Unchecked, it will lead to economic collapse.

Second, our future is to continue this trend. By virtue of its own merits, Capitalism is the journey to achieve efficiency. That is why jobs flee to Mexico, to Japan, Korea, China, etc Capital will always follow the cheapest labor, globally. So long as there's people in poverty, slave wages will exist and you will compete against them. Wage suppression is quite real in a global economy, until you're willing to both work and live like Foxconn "employees". Hence my documenting labor's decline in value. That trend simply does not stop, how would you propose to stop it?

There's more. Human labor is not efficient. As automation increases it will not be viable to keep humans participating in the economy via employment The trend is for labor's value to decline until it is literally worth nothing. It'll come in waves... first it'll be simple labor, and driving. Followed by more complex tasks. There will be a great economic shift, lots of turmoil as people struggle to make worthwhile wages. Minimum wage is a band-aid on a severed limb, you'll still compete against slaves and automation. Not enough money in labor today, even less tomorrow. The future is a no win scenario for anyone thinking labor and employment are going to keep our people fed and housed.

Third, you need to appreciate stimulus. The effect of "full employment", and our need for everyone to participate in the economy. As a matter of living, especially to maintain a certain quality of life, humans need to purchase and consume products. As they make those purchases they move money to the producer and their employees. This flow of money is a liquidity upon which stable economies depend. Everyone depends on everyone else spending money.

Ah, you say. I just spoke of automation breaking that chain. Money moves from spender to producer... no employee. No employees, no consumer. It's a vicious cycle which also relates to why recessions and depression hurt so god !@#$ much. Economic contraction is always a painful interrupt in the supply chain, and the free flow of money. Repressed wages and automation will also trigger seismic shocks to our system. Only those shocks are longer lasting, and growing.

To conclude, make no mistake we are in a serious funk. "Welfare" grows by the year, our people's need for it parallels that growth. There's a lot of red tape and BS standing between us and the continued free flow of money to keep our economy properly stimulated for all the products to produce, sell, and consume. We need to ensure that everyone, regardless of circumstance, is able to participate in keeping the goods moving. In keeping others employed by those sales. By having a universal basic income. $1,000/mo can be done for 65% of today's budget.

It works be taxing producers and ensuring that they have the same economic impact as if they had employees, even if they don't.
It works by being simpler and straight forward than the current hodgepodge of tax credits, benefits, programs, stamps, and welfare.
It safeguards a certain minimum of economic activity from recession, or slave labor, or even automation.
And through that safety net our people can be secured, economically.

My proposal is no bigger than the needs of our people. Block out the sun? No. I mean to plug the hot gates and stop us from falling.
Democrat? Progressive? I will work with whoever I need and call myself whatever it takes to see this done.
 
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