Democracy Wins in Pakistan

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
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It wasn't the result most of the elite and overseas Pakistanis were hoping for, but despite moderate success, Imran Khan has won the nation. Imran Khan's party was expected to give PML-N (Nawaz Sharif's party--who was exiled by Musharraf) a tough fight--and it did. Although Nawaz Sharif has won almost half of all 272 seats up for grabs, this election proves why democracy is Pakistan's future.

One thing is now certain--if a politician does not perform, people power will topple him. The ruling party, which has been deemed to be one of Pakistan's most corrupt has suffered a heavy defeat. They had two Prime Ministers in their last term. The first one was disqualified and banned from politics for five years. His sons and brothers--all five of them--lost their seats. The second PM lost his as well. The People's Party only managed to win 30 seats and only won in its stronghold, interior Sind. All their main men have lost their bid to get into the parliament. Their most senior politicians have resigned from their posts in the Senate, foreign office and party positions. To most PPP is a dead party. How the corrupt fall from grace.

The new winners PML-N were always favourites. Although I don't agree with their proposed policies, if they act upon what they said they would, Pakistan will be a much better place. The Prime Minister-elect seems to have learned from his previous two stints where who was toppled, first by a civilian president and later by Musharraf. He seems to have matured. We will soon find out.

However, the biggest change in Pakistan has been bought by Imran Khan. He won just one seat in 2002 and boycotted the elections in 2008. This time though, in Punjab (largest province), it wasn't a traditional fight between the PML-N and PPPP. In fact, even though the PTI (Imran's party) won just 30 seats, it managed to come second in almost all seats won by PML-N. Furthermore, it has won in major urban centers like Pindi/Islamabad, Peshawar, and some areas of Lahore.

The PTI is going to form the government in the restive province of Khyber Pakhoonkhwa and it will be interesting to see how they perform. The new federal government will be under severe pressure to perform and in theory corruption will be heavily scrutinized by the opposition lead by PTI.

The elections weren't free and fair everywhere. In fact, the Election Comission of Pakistan has accepted that they failed to hold free and fair elections in Pakistan's biggest and most problematic city--Karachi. I am from Karachi. Although, there was massive rigging by the MQM (secular party of Indian immigrants), people have have decided enough is enough. Karachi is one of the least safest cities to live in. The Taliban have set up no-go areas where even police refuse to go. However, the MQM has been causing most of the bloodshed here. They extort, torture and kill. They rigged the elections in Karachi. In my constituency, some polling stations opened just before voting was to end while there was no voting at others. In previous elections, people gave up--nobody stood up to the MQM. This time it was different. The old and young of Karachi came to vote inspired by Imran Khan. They had a candidate they wanted to win. They stood in the 40C heat for hours waiting for ballot boxes (which had been hijacked by MQM) to arrive.

At my mom's polling station, an armed thug belonging to MQM attempted to barge in. He was beaten up by the people and taken away by the police. The audacity they had. My constituency is made up of the richest people in Pakistan. We managed to get a reelection here. But, people from all over the city have joined our protest demanding reelection in all 20 constituencies on the city.

What baffles me though, is despite the United Kingdom's tough stance against Islamist terrorism, it has turned a blind eye towards Altaf Husain. Altaf Husain is a British national who runs MQM. He has been implicated in several crimes before escaping from Pakistan. A few days ago, the people of Karachi were peacefully protesting at the "three swords" monument in Karachi. Later that night, Altaf Husain said on national television that if he orders his workers, they will turn the "three swords" into real swords to mince. These threats were poorly thought out. Altaf Husain has picked a fight with the wrong people. There have been at least 10,000 phone calls to the UK police and terrorism unit complaining against Altaf Husain under the UK terror law 2000. Pakistan must declare him an enemy of state and he must be sent to Guantanamo bay.

It's going to be an interesting time in Pakistan, especially Karachi. Hopefully we can get rid of the MQM and Taliban threat and move towards prosperity. I was skeptical about democracy but now that I have seen the power of people I say "Democracy is the best revenge."
 
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woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
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How can "democracy win" when according to your own analysis, the election was not "free and fair" at least in sizable parts of the country? If you're going to have any sort of democracy, free and fair elections are the first thing you have to get right.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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this election proves why democracy is Pakistan's future.

As long as there is a muslim majority, democracy will not be stable. There is no other law besides the quran.

Democracy is nothing more then mob rules anyway.

People are stupid when it comes to voting. If you want an example just look at the income tax. What idiots our forefathers must have been to approve a tax on income.

Then factor the religious zealots in Pakistan,,, yea,, good luck with that.
 
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Murloc

Diamond Member
Jun 24, 2008
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How can "democracy win" when according to your own analysis, the election was not "free and fair" at least in sizable parts of the country? If you're going to have any sort of democracy, free and fair elections are the first thing you have to get right.
well it's the first transition between 2 civilian political governments that ever happened in Pakistan, and they managed to avoid a civil war after the elections. That's more than many third world countries get and it's a progress. Armed people messing with polling stations and corruption is systemic and won't change fast, but that doesn't undermine the stability of the system if they don't go overboard (e.g. talibans getting too close).

Texashiker, most people don't think an income tax is stupid. Focalising on a single democratic decision you don't agree with is no reason to say people are stupid.
 
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The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
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How can "democracy win" when according to your own analysis, the election was not "free and fair" at least in sizable parts of the country? If you're going to have any sort of democracy, free and fair elections are the first thing you have to get right.

They were free and fair for the most part. Karachi was an exception and that the people protested is huge numbers is a testament to the fact that they want to exercise their power of vote. They're not giving up. The first thing to get right is the will of the people to stand up for their rights.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
35,928
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How can "democracy win" when according to your own analysis, the election was not "free and fair" at least in sizable parts of the country? If you're going to have any sort of democracy, free and fair elections are the first thing you have to get right.

He's saying the government was changed via election. That is a success when revolution occurs via voting instead of violence.
 

sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
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How can "democracy win" when according to your own analysis, the election was not "free and fair" at least in sizable parts of the country? If you're going to have any sort of democracy, free and fair elections are the first thing you have to get right.

A step towards achieving that goal is always a win.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
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As long as there is a muslim majority, democracy will not be stable. There is no other law besides the quran.

Democracy is nothing more then mob rules anyway.

People are stupid when it comes to voting. If you want an example just look at the income tax. What idiots our forefathers must have been to approve a tax on income.

Then factor the religious zealots in Pakistan,,, yea,, good luck with that.

The two religious parties combined only managed to win 13 seats out of 272. They even lost in Waziristan. The PML-N and PTI are both center-right. The losing PPP is leftist.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
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What about Indonesia and Turkey?

What groups of islam compose each nation, Sunni or Shia? Is sharia law enforced in those nations?

Is the US government doing drone strikes in Indonesia and Turkey?

Do the people of Indonesia and Turkey see their government as a puppet of the United States?


Really? You don't know? For real?

Because our forefathers were stupid and believed what they were told, period.
 

fskimospy

Elite Member
Mar 10, 2006
88,063
55,570
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What groups of islam compose each nation, Sunni or Shia? Is sharia law enforced in those nations?

Is the US government doing drone strikes in Indonesia and Turkey?

Do the people of Indonesia and Turkey see their government as a puppet of the United States?

You said the problem was with a Muslim majority, not drone strikes, not the presence or absence of sharia, and not the presence or absence of the population viewing the US in a particular way.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
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You said the problem was with a Muslim majority,

I mispoke on that post.

As I have said in numerous other post, the problem is not islam in general, but with radical islam.

We should not classify a group of people through the actions of a few.
 

Jaskalas

Lifer
Jun 23, 2004
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No matter the new Pakistani government's feelings towards the United States, their success and well being is a welcomed opportunity to strengthen a system of government in a dangerous part of the world. That strength may yield future opportunities for peace and stability. Not just for them, but their relation towards others as well.

You have my best wishes Green Bean.
 

Texashiker

Lifer
Dec 18, 2010
18,811
198
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their success and well being is a welcomed opportunity to strengthen a system of government in a dangerous part of the world.

Democracy is not a strong system.

Democracy only works when you have an educated voting populace, and freedom of the press.

EDIT

Democracy only works when religious zealots do not make up the majority.

What did democracy give us? Slavery, no equal rights in marriage, outlawed cannabis, third class citizenship based on race, color, sexual preference and religion.

As long as your viewpoints, race, religion,,, are in the majority, then everything is fine in a democracy.
 
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sunzt

Diamond Member
Nov 27, 2003
3,076
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Democracy is not a strong system.

Democracy only works when you have an educated voting populace, and freedom of the press.

EDIT

Democracy only works when religious zealots do not make up the majority.

What did democracy give us? Slavery, no equal rights in marriage, outlawed cannabis, third class citizenship based on race, color, sexual preference and religion.

As long as your viewpoints, race, religion,,, are in the majority, then everything is fine in a democracy.

Good thing then that "The two religious parties combined only managed to win 13 seats out of 272. They even lost in Waziristan. The PML-N and PTI are both center-right. The losing PPP is leftist. "
 

kage69

Lifer
Jul 17, 2003
31,504
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Democracy there doesn't really mean much as long as the military gets to function as it's own country.

I applaud the fight the populace is putting up, but until something is done about the corruption there how much change can we really expect?
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
16,242
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He's saying the government was changed via election. That is a success when revolution occurs via voting instead of violence.

Yeah, I do understand that point. I don't think a sham election is much better than changing regimes by violence, because violence is around the corner when election results cannot be trusted. However, I see now that he is saying it was mostly fair, so it's a step in the right direction.
 

The Green Bean

Diamond Member
Jul 27, 2003
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is this the same party of that woman who got assassinated?

Her party lost.

Apart from Karachi, they are recounting votes in up to 25 constituencies. There have been errors, but I wouldn't blame anyone--Florida's recount changed the course of American history in 2000.
 

finglobes

Senior member
Dec 13, 2010
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Pakistan was better off with a benevolent dictator like Pervez Musharraf. I remember when he got dumped (with help from his US/UK "friends") and not long after the Taliban were a few miles outside Islamabad. I recall someone in Pakistan posting here being fairly nervous about that.