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Dem campaign chief vows no litmus test on abortion

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Uh, no. I don't understand.

Picture a pregnant teen who doesn't want to be pregnant and is willing to have an illegal abortion to end the pregnancy, (kill the child in your parlance).

Now picture the legal system is informed by a family member or friend that she intends to have an illegal abortion.

What would you have the police/legal system do?

Do you have them intervene and if so how and for how long?

Do you have them do nothing and charge her for crime afterwards?
 
It's not peer reviewed. It's just looking at the numbers in Poland before 1990, when the most restrictive abortion law was passed post-Communism, and afterward. Abortions dropped from the hundreds of thousands to the low hundreds.

http://www.johnstonsarchive.net/policy/abortion/ab-poland.html

You could also look at the explosion of US abortions in the wake of Roe v. Wade.

This is based on a dataset created by an anti-abortion group and is not peer reviewed. I don't really think this is compelling evidence in any way. The idea that banning abortion would result in a thousandfold decrease in abortion strains credulity and is totally out of line with results we've seen anywhere else which strongly suggests their data is bad and the 'estimated' abortions part is basically made up.

What do you make of the actual peer reviewed studies I showed you? They indicate that anti-abortion laws are ineffective at stopping abortion but effective at making abortions more likely to injure or kill the mother. Does that seem like a good outcome?

If anti-abortion laws were directly causing increases in abortion, I would say they need to be changed. But I'm not convinced of any such correlation, and neither is a majority of the country. Some 60% of Americans favor a 20 week ban.

Not causing increases in abortion, not leading to DECREASES in abortion but leading to increases in the death of mothers because they are no longer able to have an abortion safely.

I sincerely doubt that the average American has considered what you're saying.
 
If abortion is made illegal, what will be the treatment for ectopic pregnancies? What about molar pregnancies? What about a woman who becomes pregnant and then is diagnosed with an invasive cancer? It has been readily established that there is no perfect moment of "personhood" during pregnancy.

These are the realities that women and medical providers face in this issue. Unfortunately, many refuse to acknowledge the meaning and significant consequences of their proposed policies.
 
That's specious reasoning. Just because the number of reported abortions dropped, doesn't mean that's a true reflection of the number of abortions.
It is well known for the case of Poland that a number of underground abortions are performed, whether performed by a provider or medications ordered online. Obviously these cases are not reported. Then, there is a well-described population of Poles leaving the country to obtain an abortion as a "medical tourist."

As posted in this thread, there are well described studies demonstrating very little impact of restrictive abortion practices in the United States. Some states observed some of the highest decreases in the number of abortions despite adding no new laws/regulations. To add to the list:

Jones RK, Jerman J. Abortion Incidence and Service Availability In the United States, 2014. Perspect Sex Reprod Health. 2017 Mar;49(1):17-27.

If reported abortions isn't a true reflection or even indicator of the true number of abortions, then where are these studies getting their numbers?
 
Research I've seen, such as from Poland before and after its anti-abortion laws in the 80s, and Ireland, doesn't support your claim.

But there's no sense ignoring the moral component here. Laws such as those banning murder are made because murder is wrong, not because they've done studies on the efficacy of such a law. New Orleans has one of the highest per capita murder rates in the country. Should our focus at any point be on maybe loosening the legal consequences of murder?

Now I see where you get your fucked up ideas from. The government isn't supposed to regulate morality. Murder is illegal because it violates another citizens rights, which has obvious consequences as eski pointed out and it would be devastating for the federal government whose main purpose is to promote the general welfare of its citizens.
 
Picture a pregnant teen who doesn't want to be pregnant and is willing to have an illegal abortion to end the pregnancy, (kill the child in your parlance).

Now picture the legal system is informed by a family member or friend that she intends to have an illegal abortion.

What would you have the police/legal system do?

Do you have them intervene and if so how and for how long?

Do you have them do nothing and charge her for crime afterwards?

If abortion is made illegal, what will be the treatment for ectopic pregnancies? What about molar pregnancies? What about a woman who becomes pregnant and then is diagnosed with an invasive cancer? It has been readily established that there is no perfect moment of "personhood" during pregnancy.

These are the realities that women and medical providers face in this issue. Unfortunately, many refuse to acknowledge the meaning and significant consequences of their proposed policies.

Same as buckshot literally does not give a shit about natural biology, atreus21 & co doesn't about the implications of abortion in this world.
 
Honest question. Has it ever occurred to you to consider republican ideas on the merits, rather than dismissing them because they come from republicans?

And if you have, has it occurred to you that two perfectly reasonable people can come to different conclusions, and yet maintain respect towards each other? If I were to take your statement above seriously, I would have to think you consider the Republican party as the embodiment of evil; that they really do want people to suffer and die. Is it at all possible that, just like the Democrats, Republicans are stumbling about trying to do the best they can with what they think they know?

I've had the same argument against those of my own camp, who are convinced beyond hope that abortion supporters really do like the idea of dead babies, and would devolve to cannibalism but for the influence of Christianity.

It's cheap and easy to denounce your opponents as monsters. It's much more difficult and mature to engage them as human beings, and not dismiss them as monsters if you fail to convince them of your ideas.

It absolutely has occurred to me -- my argument revolves around the rationality of the issues at hand, not who the issues are coming from. If you think that policies likely to result in a loss of innocent life are always wrong, why support a party that has not only made a habit out of pursuing those policies, but pursues them on larger scales than the party you're so vehemently against?

I don't think the pro-Trumpcare Republican politicians are setting out to kill innocent people; they just consider the risk of killing innocent people to be perfectly acceptable as long as they fulfill their ultimate objectives (courting lobbyists and donors, realizing their privatized health care dreams, scoring political points with the base). And yes, they know exactly what they're doing. When you push forward with a bill after you're told it will strip health care from 22 million people, many of whom can't afford a private replacement, you know full well that thousands of people are likely to die due to their inability to afford treatment. It's simple math. That's not "stumbling about" -- that's knowing, wilful cruelty. At a certain point you just have to accept that yes, sometimes politicians will consciously do reprehensible things in the name of greed.

Say what you will about the pro-choice camp, but at least they're coming from a better place. They care for someone besides themselves. I don't want to cast Republicans as monsters, and I know that there are plenty of reasonable politicians and supporters on that side of the fence (otherwise, the bills wouldn't have failed). But I'm not going to sugarcoat inexcusably vile things to please people who don't like hearing hard truths, especially not when it reflects their hypocrisy. You know the saying: you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
 
If reported abortions isn't a true reflection or even indicator of the true number of abortions, then where are these studies getting their numbers?
You posted about Poland. Why should we trust their data as a true demonstration of the abortion rate given the known facts about women's health care in that country? You chose a crappy dataset to base your argument on, not me.

The US doesn't have the same issues... because the obvious, abortion is not illegal in the 50 states. Plus the US can measure alternative outcomes, including mortality during birth.
 
Honest question. Has it ever occurred to you to consider republican ideas on the merits, rather than dismissing them because they come from republicans?

And if you have, has it occurred to you that two perfectly reasonable people can come to different conclusions, and yet maintain respect towards each other? If I were to take your statement above seriously, I would have to think you consider the Republican party as the embodiment of evil; that they really do want people to suffer and die. Is it at all possible that, just like the Democrats, Republicans are stumbling about trying to do the best they can with what they think they know?

I've had the same argument against those of my own camp, who are convinced beyond hope that abortion supporters really do like the idea of dead babies, and would devolve to cannibalism but for the influence of Christianity.

It's cheap and easy to denounce your opponents as monsters. It's much more difficult and mature to engage them as human beings, and not dismiss them as monsters if you fail to convince them of your ideas.
The Republican Party has a well established history of carrying out evil so it makes sense that I view them as evil. From war crimes to treason to environmental destruction to looting the treasury, the Republican Party has a history that I will not ignore. They are monsters and they are monsters by choice. Moral, informed, Republican: pick two because you can't be all three.
 
It absolutely has occurred to me -- my argument revolves around the rationality of the issues at hand, not who the issues are coming from. If you think that policies likely to result in a loss of innocent life are always wrong, why support a party that has not only made a habit out of pursuing those policies, but pursues them on larger scales than the party you're so vehemently against?

I don't think the pro-Trumpcare Republican politicians are setting out to kill innocent people; they just consider the risk of killing innocent people to be perfectly acceptable as long as they fulfill their ultimate objectives (courting lobbyists and donors, realizing their privatized health care dreams, scoring political points with the base). And yes, they know exactly what they're doing. When you push forward with a bill after you're told it will strip health care from 22 million people, many of whom can't afford a private replacement, you know full well that thousands of people are likely to die due to their inability to afford treatment. It's simple math. That's not "stumbling about" -- that's knowing, wilful cruelty. At a certain point you just have to accept that yes, sometimes politicians will consciously do reprehensible things in the name of greed.

Say what you will about the pro-choice camp, but at least they're coming from a better place. They care for someone besides themselves. I don't want to cast Republicans as monsters, and I know that there are plenty of reasonable politicians and supporters on that side of the fence (otherwise, the bills wouldn't have failed). But I'm not going to sugarcoat inexcusably vile things to please people who don't like hearing hard truths, especially not when it reflects their hypocrisy. You know the saying: you're entitled to your own opinions, but not your own facts.
The Republican Party has a well established history of carrying out evil so it makes sense that I view them as evil. From war crimes to treason to environmental destruction to looting the treasury, the Republican Party has a history that I will not ignore. They are monsters and they are monsters by choice. Moral, informed, Republican: pick two because you can't be all three.

In all fairness the middle-ages conservatives are looking to conserve is only monstrous by post-enlightenment standards.
 
Science has yet to conclude when life begins so prior to viability let the individual decide.

We steadily make progress towards test tube babies.... "viability" is marching towards the moment of conception. Not a bar you want to set.
 
People with the means to raise a kid also have the means to travel where they need to have an abortion, if they so choose. So by banning abortion in your state, you are essentially forcing people who can't even afford to buy a bus trip out of state to be parents. Be ready to support those kids as tax payers, because their parents can't even support themselves.

That won't be happening, if the GOP can gut the safety net such unfortunate women will have basically one choice, enter a home for unwed mothers & sign the baby over to the highest bidders...err adoptive parents.

Think of all the cash, lawyers, adoption agencies & maternity homes will be raking in. Mom to be have a drug problem? Slam her in a for hire prison, she'll get clean, her baby will be sold & she'll work for the state for years as a prisoner.
 
That won't be happening, if the GOP can gut the safety net such unfortunate women will have basically one choice, enter a home for unwed mothers & sign the baby over to the highest bidders...err adoptive parents.

Think of all the cash, lawyers, adoption agencies & maternity homes will be raking in. Mom to be have a drug problem? Slam her in a for hire prison, she'll get clean, her baby will be sold & she'll work for the state for years as a prisoner.

They better start praying since conservative "christians" aren't going to do much for them.
 
That won't be happening, if the GOP can gut the safety net such unfortunate women will have basically one choice, enter a home for unwed mothers & sign the baby over to the highest bidders...err adoptive parents.

Think of all the cash, lawyers, adoption agencies & maternity homes will be raking in. Mom to be have a drug problem? Slam her in a for hire prison, she'll get clean, her baby will be sold & she'll work for the state for years as a prisoner.
Worked for the Irish.
 
We steadily make progress towards test tube babies.... "viability" is marching towards the moment of conception. Not a bar you want to set.
I think even as the goal-posts of viability and prematurity shift, there still is a fundamental problem. Depending on when/how one defines a pregnancy, up to 50% of fertilized eggs never make it to term. There are issues with implantation, chromosomal abnormalities, etc that causes spontaneous abortion. Then from the other end of the spectrum, twinning occurs days up to a week or two after fertilization of the egg, making conception another flawed logical starting point. I think it will be very difficult to find an objective starting point of viability/personhood/etc given these nuances.
 
I think even as the goal-posts of viability and prematurity shift, there still is a fundamental problem. Depending on when/how one defines a pregnancy, up to 50% of fertilized eggs never make it to term. There are issues with implantation, chromosomal abnormalities, etc that causes spontaneous abortion. Then from the other end of the spectrum, twinning occurs days up to a week or two after fertilization of the egg, making conception another flawed logical starting point. I think it will be very difficult to find an objective starting point of viability/personhood/etc given these nuances.
No reason we can't charge women with criminal negligence for that.
 
I think even as the goal-posts of viability and prematurity shift, there still is a fundamental problem. Depending on when/how one defines a pregnancy, up to 50% of fertilized eggs never make it to term. There are issues with implantation, chromosomal abnormalities, etc that causes spontaneous abortion. Then from the other end of the spectrum, twinning occurs days up to a week or two after fertilization of the egg, making conception another flawed logical starting point. I think it will be very difficult to find an objective starting point of viability/personhood/etc given these nuances.

Aye, thank you for raising that. My own take... we have to compromise for the sake of the child. Unrestricted abortions up to an arbitrary point, such as before the second trimester. Then restrict it down to medical needs from there. That's just how I view the matter. I would have an issue with someone wanting unrestricted third trimester abortions, but it's not a priority issue. America has so many bigger problems.
 
Research I've seen, such as from Poland before and after its anti-abortion laws in the 80s, and Ireland, doesn't support your claim.

Try considering "research" from countries that aren't predominantly catholic, there's your problem.

Oh no that's right, you're a catholic single issue voter who cherry picks data to fit your world view.

Nevermind.
 
Aye, thank you for raising that. My own take... we have to compromise for the sake of the child. Unrestricted abortions up to an arbitrary point, such as before the second trimester. Then restrict it down to medical needs from there. That's just how I view the matter. I would have an issue with someone wanting unrestricted third trimester abortions, but it's not a priority issue. America has so many bigger problems.


Are late term abortions for reasons other than medical happening in any sort of frequency? Do you have some data on that? Otherwise arbitrary restrictions doesn't seem like a good basis for creating laws.
 
This is based on a dataset created by an anti-abortion group and is not peer reviewed. I don't really think this is compelling evidence in any way. The idea that banning abortion would result in a thousandfold decrease in abortion strains credulity and is totally out of line with results we've seen anywhere else which strongly suggests their data is bad and the 'estimated' abortions part is basically made up.

And the increase of abortions in the wake of Roe v. Wade? Does that also strain credulity?

What do you make of the actual peer reviewed studies I showed you? They indicate that anti-abortion laws are ineffective at stopping abortion but effective at making abortions more likely to injure or kill the mother. Does that seem like a good outcome?

Of course it's not a good outcome. I'm not in favor of mothers killing themselves while trying to kill their children.

Do these studies deal with countries before and after abortion laws are passed or struck down?

I guess I have a hard time accepting the conclusion that penalties have no effect on practice, which is what these studies are saying in essence.
 
I honestly don't care about early or late term abortions. Not sure why we keep as a society focusing on niche issues that have minimal societal impact but ignore huge glaring things that are affecting us all.
 
Picture a pregnant teen who doesn't want to be pregnant and is willing to have an illegal abortion to end the pregnancy, (kill the child in your parlance).

Now picture the legal system is informed by a family member or friend that she intends to have an illegal abortion.

What would you have the police/legal system do?

Require the girl to give birth to the child rather than kill it.

Do you have them intervene and if so how and for how long?

I don't see why they'd have to intervene.

Do you have them do nothing and charge her for crime afterwards?

Yes. Killing one's own child ought to be illegal. Just like murder is.

There are multitudes, scads of organizations that support pregnant teens like this.
 
I think even as the goal-posts of viability and prematurity shift, there still is a fundamental problem. Depending on when/how one defines a pregnancy, up to 50% of fertilized eggs never make it to term. There are issues with implantation, chromosomal abnormalities, etc that causes spontaneous abortion. Then from the other end of the spectrum, twinning occurs days up to a week or two after fertilization of the egg, making conception another flawed logical starting point. I think it will be very difficult to find an objective starting point of viability/personhood/etc given these nuances.

Conception is a much less arbitrary starting point than viability.
 
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