Delphi files to void UAW contracts

[halik]

linkiee

"Delphi's misuse of the bankruptcy procedure to circumvent the collective bargaining process and slash jobs and wages and drastically reduce health care, retirement and other hard-won benefits or eliminate them altogether is a travesty and a concern for every American,"

Work in "liberty" and "pursuit of happines" and you have the emptiest press release statement of the year.

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: halik
linkiee

"Delphi's misuse of the bankruptcy procedure to circumvent the collective bargaining process and slash jobs and wages and drastically reduce health care, retirement and other hard-won benefits or eliminate them altogether is a travesty and a concern for every American,"

Work in "liberty" and "pursuit of happines" and you have the emptiest press release statement of the year.

It's time that Unions are killed off and more Americans plunge into the low wages with no benefits and no retirement.

America's new proud Republican class, the Working Homeless

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: halik
linkiee

"Delphi's misuse of the bankruptcy procedure to circumvent the collective bargaining process and slash jobs and wages and drastically reduce health care, retirement and other hard-won benefits or eliminate them altogether is a travesty and a concern for every American,"

Work in "liberty" and "pursuit of happines" and you have the emptiest press release statement of the year.

It's time that Unions are killed off and more Americans plunge into the low wages with no benefits and no retirement.

America's new proud Republican class, the Working Homeless

You mean the americans that made the choice to be unksilled and thereby low earners?

This has nothing to do with Republicans, it's a market price correction. Low gas prices in the past 10 years allowed the big 3 to get away with ludacris labor costs, mostly because people were buying SUVs that have huge profit margins.

Whats your solution for the problem? I'd like to hear how you'd go about running a business at loss, because your unionized assembly line workers cost 25/hr and take about 20% longer to assemble a car (compared to non union labor). Let me know when you find out an answer...

 

[dmcowen674]

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: halik
linkiee

"Delphi's misuse of the bankruptcy procedure to circumvent the collective bargaining process and slash jobs and wages and drastically reduce health care, retirement and other hard-won benefits or eliminate them altogether is a travesty and a concern for every American,"

Work in "liberty" and "pursuit of happines" and you have the emptiest press release statement of the year.

It's time that Unions are killed off and more Americans plunge into the low wages with no benefits and no retirement.

America's new proud Republican class, the Working Homeless

You mean the americans that made the choice to be unksilled and thereby low earners?

This has nothing to do with Republicans, it's a market price correction. Low gas prices in the past 10 years allowed the big 3 to get away with ludacris labor costs, mostly because people were buying SUVs that have huge profit margins.

Whats your solution for the problem? I'd like to hear how you'd go about running a business at loss, because your unionized assembly line workers cost 25/hr and take about 20% longer to assemble a car (compared to non union labor). Let me know when you find out an answer...

More BS.

There are plenty of College grads that are working poor now and those numbers are increasing. enjoy

 

[FuzzyBee]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: halik
linkiee

"Delphi's misuse of the bankruptcy procedure to circumvent the collective bargaining process and slash jobs and wages and drastically reduce health care, retirement and other hard-won benefits or eliminate them altogether is a travesty and a concern for every American,"

Work in "liberty" and "pursuit of happines" and you have the emptiest press release statement of the year.

It's time that Unions are killed off and more Americans plunge into the low wages with no benefits and no retirement.

America's new proud Republican class, the Working Homeless

You mean the americans that made the choice to be unksilled and thereby low earners?

This has nothing to do with Republicans, it's a market price correction. Low gas prices in the past 10 years allowed the big 3 to get away with ludacris labor costs, mostly because people were buying SUVs that have huge profit margins.

Whats your solution for the problem? I'd like to hear how you'd go about running a business at loss, because your unionized assembly line workers cost 25/hr and take about 20% longer to assemble a car (compared to non union labor). Let me know when you find out an answer...

More BS.

There are plenty of College grads that are working poor now and those numbers are increasing. enjoy

Nice way to answer his question. I expected nothing less.

 

[Thump553]

If the UAW strikes against Delphi (and the odds are pretty strong it will) it will be a bitter and nasty strike that will severely damage GM (which lost $10 BILLION last year) and all the other US auto makers. It's a lose-lose-lose situation for UAW, Delphi and GM but Delphi's union workers feel like they have no alternative. Simple human nature won't allow them to admit that their highly paid assembly jobs are history.

We are seeing the last throes of highly paid unskilled US labor-outside of governmental employment.

It's going to be a rough summer for the auto industry in particular, but this situation won't do the US economy any good either.

 

[BarneyFife]

I agree. The days of good factory jobs are now over. About 25 years ago, a person could get a decent factory job to support a family. Sucks for the people that don't have a college degree (liberal arts majors don't count).

 

[halik]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: halik

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: halik
linkiee

"Delphi's misuse of the bankruptcy procedure to circumvent the collective bargaining process and slash jobs and wages and drastically reduce health care, retirement and other hard-won benefits or eliminate them altogether is a travesty and a concern for every American,"

Work in "liberty" and "pursuit of happines" and you have the emptiest press release statement of the year.

It's time that Unions are killed off and more Americans plunge into the low wages with no benefits and no retirement.

America's new proud Republican class, the Working Homeless

You mean the americans that made the choice to be unksilled and thereby low earners?

This has nothing to do with Republicans, it's a market price correction. Low gas prices in the past 10 years allowed the big 3 to get away with ludacris labor costs, mostly because people were buying SUVs that have huge profit margins.

Whats your solution for the problem? I'd like to hear how you'd go about running a business at loss, because your unionized assembly line workers cost 25/hr and take about 20% longer to assemble a car (compared to non union labor). Let me know when you find out an answer...

More BS.

There are plenty of College grads that are working poor now and those numbers are increasing. enjoy

First of all, the decline in wages of unskilled labor has been going on for the past 40 years and it's got nothing to do with Republicans. It's generally agreed that the increase in technology in the workplace creates the need for educated labor, which displaces the demand for unskilled labor.
link

Second of all, the wages of people with higher education have been going up steadily since the 70s
link
2nd link

Finally this is the most recent analysis Ive seen:
link

Even in the past year where we experienced the "jobless recovery", the real wage for college grads was about the same where as highschool grads and less experienced slight loss. This is completly in check with the long term indicators.

Got anything else?

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: halik

You mean the americans that made the choice to be unksilled and thereby low earners?

Is the contrary of what you're implying also true? That by choosing to become skilled one thereby becomes a high earner?

Are you thus suggesting that everyone obtained a bachelor's degree in a useful field that everyone would thus become a high wage earner? If everyone went college would we have knowledge-based high income jobs for everyone?

How do you explain the existence of unemployed and underemployed professionals, such as people with law degrees who couldn't find jobs working as lawyers? (We produce twice as many new lawyers as we need.) You could say the same thing for MBAs, computer programmers, and Ph.D. scientists.

I don't see how becoming skilled necessarily guarantees one a good income and job security--not in today's America. Student loan payments and student loan debt--it might guarantee that.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: Thump553
If the UAW strikes against Delphi (and the odds are pretty strong it will) it will be a bitter and nasty strike that will severely damage GM (which lost $10 BILLION last year) and all the other US auto makers. It's a lose-lose-lose situation for UAW, Delphi and GM but Delphi's union workers feel like they have no alternative. Simple human nature won't allow them to admit that their highly paid assembly jobs are history.

We are seeing the last throes of highly paid unskilled US labor-outside of governmental employment.

It's going to be a rough summer for the auto industry in particular, but this situation won't do the US economy any good either.

I know it will be fruitless, but if the UAW does decide to go out with a bang, perhaps it will make Americans more aware of the ravages of global labor wage arbitrage. I don't think there's anything these union workers can do to preserve their incomes because economic forces dictate that they will have to lose them, but by going on strike and generating large amounts of national publicity and by protesting global labor wage arbitrage perhaps they can persuade more Americans to join the battle to save the American middle class.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: BarneyFife
I agree. The days of good factory jobs are now over. About 25 years ago, a person could get a decent factory job to support a family. Sucks for the people that don't have a college degree (liberal arts majors don't count).

It also sucks for people with college degrees, too, because now everyone will want to go to college but the economy will only support a certain number of college-education-requiring jobs as a fraction of the total number of jobs available.

The result? The Education Arms Race. That bachelor's degree will only be the equivalent of a high school diploma soon. Wanna get ahead? That BA/BS isn't worth much! Gotta go spend more time and money getting a Master's degree! Then soon everyone will get Master's degrees. Then people will go get Ph.D.'s. Then they'll combine degrees and get dual Master's degrees. Then they'll tack on professional degrees (the MS Engineering-MBA), etc.

At the end of the day, however, if all of the horses run faster only three horses can finish in the top three.

I suspect that we'll discover that we've wasted a huge amount of time and money educating people for jobs that don't exist and that a very large percentage of the populace will thus be unemployed. We'll discover that education is not a substitute for good economic policy. We'll discover that spending time and money on education does not magically create jobs.

Sadly, education is the polticians' opiate of the masses. Politicians need only say that we need more education and that our problem is that our education system isn't good enough and voila--people believe it! People gobble that garbage down hook, line, and sinker!

Don't believe me? Go down to your local research university, find the science labs, and talk to some American postdoctorates--smart people with science Ph.D.'s working 65+ hours/week at gypsy scientist jobs for few (if any) benefits with no job security for about $30,000/year in the hopes that one day their virtual post-Ph.D. degree (the postdoc) will allow them to get a real job. (Don't talk to the foreigners who are just happy to be in the U.S., talk to the Americans.) The media, the government (like the National Science Foundation), and the education establishment have been selling Americans on science as a career for decades. Some people bought into the hype (and the claim of a shortfall of a couple hundred thousand chemists, for example). Talk to some of those people and discover the fact that education in a technical field that develops solid problem solving and analytical skills does not guarantee a good career.

 

[umbrella39]

Excellent commentary WS. Bravo. Almost into my 40's I realized last year my two degrees (Art & Science) just weren't cutting it. So back in college and back in debt to hopefully be one of those 3 horses you mentioned when the race is over. Thankfully they have not figured out a way to outsource respiratory therapists, yet.

 

[Ferocious]

Originally posted by: halik
Whats your solution for the problem? I'd like to hear how you'd go about running a business at loss, because your unionized assembly line workers cost 25/hr and take about 20% longer to assemble a car (compared to non union labor). Let me know when you find out an answer...

The solution is quite simple. Plan long term and not only for the next annual report...and make products that people want to buy!

Automakers in South Korea, Europe and Japan are all heavily unionized. The UAW is really a non-issue...except to delay the inevitable (with concessions) when management and engineering can't do its job year after year. Even GM's management has said the union isn't the problem now.

Oh and GM currently has 3 of the top 5 (including #1) most productive assembly plants in the North America. However they have so many old ones that need more capital investments if they are to be competitive. But because of managment's poor choices over the years...they will probably need to be closed due to lost market share.

But again all a moot point if they make products nobody wants.

 

[3chordcharlie]

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Originally posted by: halik
Whats your solution for the problem? I'd like to hear how you'd go about running a business at loss, because your unionized assembly line workers cost 25/hr and take about 20% longer to assemble a car (compared to non union labor). Let me know when you find out an answer...

The solution is quite simple. Plan long term and not only for the next annual report...and make products that people want to buy!

Automakers in South Korea, Europe and Japan are all heavily unionized. The UAW is really a non-issue...except to delay the inevitable (with concessions) when management and engineering can't do its job year after year. Even GM's management has said the union isn't the problem now.

Oh and GM currently has 3 of the top 5 (including #1) most productive assembly plants in the North America. However they have so many old ones that need more capital investments if they are to be competitive. But because of managment's poor choices over the years...they will probably need to be closed due to lost market share.

But again all a moot point if they make products nobody wants.

Some people forget that capital investment has more to do with 'average labour cost per car' than any real differences in how hard people work; Big3 employees may have 'interesting' attitudes about work, etc, but the fact is once the line starts rolling, the cars get made; I've seen one of the better lines (Oshawa #2) and it's amazing how fast a 55 yo with a beerbelly can move😉

The myth that labour is the direct problem at Big-3 plants is just that, a myth; there may be some obstructionism in terms of process improvements (that could lead to job-cuts), but 'lazy' isn't a major problem. Add to this that most foreign plants in North America are less than 10-15 years old, and of course they would tend to appear productive; they're all highly modern facilities.

 

[IdaGno]

Originally posted by: WhipperSnapper

That bachelor's degree will only be the equivalent of a high school diploma soon.

Hello & welcome to 1970.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Originally posted by: halik
Whats your solution for the problem? I'd like to hear how you'd go about running a business at loss, because your unionized assembly line workers cost 25/hr and take about 20% longer to assemble a car (compared to non union labor). Let me know when you find out an answer...

The solution is quite simple. Plan long term and not only for the next annual report...and make products that people want to buy!

Automakers in South Korea, Europe and Japan are all heavily unionized. The UAW is really a non-issue...except to delay the inevitable (with concessions) when management and engineering can't do its job year after year. Even GM's management has said the union isn't the problem now.

Oh and GM currently has 3 of the top 5 (including #1) most productive assembly plants in the North America. However they have so many old ones that need more capital investments if they are to be competitive. But because of managment's poor choices over the years...they will probably need to be closed due to lost market share.

But again all a moot point if they make products nobody wants.

Some people forget that capital investment has more to do with 'average labour cost per car' than any real differences in how hard people work; Big3 employees may have 'interesting' attitudes about work, etc, but the fact is once the line starts rolling, the cars get made; I've seen one of the better lines (Oshawa #2) and it's amazing how fast a 55 yo with a beerbelly can move😉

The myth that labour is the direct problem at Big-3 plants is just that, a myth; there may be some obstructionism in terms of process improvements (that could lead to job-cuts), but 'lazy' isn't a major problem. Add to this that most foreign plants in North America are less than 10-15 years old, and of course they would tend to appear productive; they're all highly modern facilities.

The problen does not lie directly with those working the line, but in the union itself. The union cares more about headcount than the workers. The union shops(read the big 3) takes 25% more manhours to assemble a car, engine and transmission than nonunion shops. I would assume that remains the same for smaller parts as well. So the big 3 do have higher labor costs.

They also cannot automate as much because their is no cost saving as they cant lay off the workers. If workers are laid off due to automation, they go the gen pool where they get 90% of their salary and benefits forever. The big3 are paying over 10,000 uaw workers to do nothing.

the uwa is causing extra labor costs.

 

[Ferocious]

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Originally posted by: halik
Whats your solution for the problem? I'd like to hear how you'd go about running a business at loss, because your unionized assembly line workers cost 25/hr and take about 20% longer to assemble a car (compared to non union labor). Let me know when you find out an answer...

The solution is quite simple. Plan long term and not only for the next annual report...and make products that people want to buy!

Automakers in South Korea, Europe and Japan are all heavily unionized. The UAW is really a non-issue...except to delay the inevitable (with concessions) when management and engineering can't do its job year after year. Even GM's management has said the union isn't the problem now.

Oh and GM currently has 3 of the top 5 (including #1) most productive assembly plants in the North America. However they have so many old ones that need more capital investments if they are to be competitive. But because of managment's poor choices over the years...they will probably need to be closed due to lost market share.

But again all a moot point if they make products nobody wants.

Some people forget that capital investment has more to do with 'average labour cost per car' than any real differences in how hard people work; Big3 employees may have 'interesting' attitudes about work, etc, but the fact is once the line starts rolling, the cars get made; I've seen one of the better lines (Oshawa #2) and it's amazing how fast a 55 yo with a beerbelly can move😉

The myth that labour is the direct problem at Big-3 plants is just that, a myth; there may be some obstructionism in terms of process improvements (that could lead to job-cuts), but 'lazy' isn't a major problem. Add to this that most foreign plants in North America are less than 10-15 years old, and of course they would tend to appear productive; they're all highly modern facilities.

The problen does not lie directly with those working the line, but in the union itself. The union cares more about headcount than the workers. The union shops(read the big 3) takes 25% more manhours to assemble a car, engine and transmission than nonunion shops. I would assume that remains the same for smaller parts as well. So the big 3 do have higher labor costs.

They also cannot automate as much because their is no cost saving as they cant lay off the workers. If workers are laid off due to automation, they go the gen pool where they get 90% of their salary and benefits forever. The big3 are paying over 10,000 uaw workers to do nothing.

the uwa is causing extra labor costs.

The most productive plant is unionized (as are 3 of the top five)...but the union is really a non-issue there as well....as already stated.

LOL...the current contract allows for the 90% pay labor pool deal. ...The contract lasts till next year....NOT forever....and that provision might not even last that long. You really ought to get a clue.

 

[charrison]

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Originally posted by: charrison

Originally posted by: 3chordcharlie

Originally posted by: Ferocious

Originally posted by: halik
Whats your solution for the problem? I'd like to hear how you'd go about running a business at loss, because your unionized assembly line workers cost 25/hr and take about 20% longer to assemble a car (compared to non union labor). Let me know when you find out an answer...

The solution is quite simple. Plan long term and not only for the next annual report...and make products that people want to buy!

Automakers in South Korea, Europe and Japan are all heavily unionized. The UAW is really a non-issue...except to delay the inevitable (with concessions) when management and engineering can't do its job year after year. Even GM's management has said the union isn't the problem now.

Oh and GM currently has 3 of the top 5 (including #1) most productive assembly plants in the North America. However they have so many old ones that need more capital investments if they are to be competitive. But because of managment's poor choices over the years...they will probably need to be closed due to lost market share.

But again all a moot point if they make products nobody wants.

Some people forget that capital investment has more to do with 'average labour cost per car' than any real differences in how hard people work; Big3 employees may have 'interesting' attitudes about work, etc, but the fact is once the line starts rolling, the cars get made; I've seen one of the better lines (Oshawa #2) and it's amazing how fast a 55 yo with a beerbelly can move😉

The myth that labour is the direct problem at Big-3 plants is just that, a myth; there may be some obstructionism in terms of process improvements (that could lead to job-cuts), but 'lazy' isn't a major problem. Add to this that most foreign plants in North America are less than 10-15 years old, and of course they would tend to appear productive; they're all highly modern facilities.

The problen does not lie directly with those working the line, but in the union itself. The union cares more about headcount than the workers. The union shops(read the big 3) takes 25% more manhours to assemble a car, engine and transmission than nonunion shops. I would assume that remains the same for smaller parts as well. So the big 3 do have higher labor costs.

They also cannot automate as much because their is no cost saving as they cant lay off the workers. If workers are laid off due to automation, they go the gen pool where they get 90% of their salary and benefits forever. The big3 are paying over 10,000 uaw workers to do nothing.

the uwa is causing extra labor costs.

The most productive plant is unionized (as are 3 of the top five)...but the union is really a non-issue there as well....as already stated.

Yes, but their average is well below the non union shops. This is not even a debatble issue.

LOL...the current contract allows for the 90% pay labor pool deal. ...The contract lasts till next year....NOT forever....and that provision might not even last that long. You really ought to get a clue.

I would not be surprised is the gen pool disappeared in 07 as the big 3 cannot afford to keep it. And you say that they dont have labor problems.

 

[Starbuck1975]

The result? The Education Arms Race. That bachelor's degree will only be the equivalent of a high school diploma soon. Wanna get ahead? That BA/BS isn't worth much! Gotta go spend more time and money getting a Master's degree! Then soon everyone will get Master's degrees. Then people will go get Ph.D.'s. Then they'll combine degrees and get dual Master's degrees. Then they'll tack on professional degrees (the MS Engineering-MBA), etc.

Not entirely true...technology is moving at a far more rapid pace today then it was even 20 years ago...having the ability to adapt, change and learn new skills is critical to remaining competitive.

Spending time and money on education does not create jobs, but I don't know many people having trouble finding jobs who are able to match their education to a solid career development plan and a little patience.

There are a lot of new college hires in my company...most of them drive brand new luxury cars, which is an indicator of their capacity for long range planning...I make a comfortable salary, but still drive the Honda I bought 10 years ago out of college...the problem is not that current salaries are inadequate, it is that Americans today piss away their money on non-essential materialistic status symbol items that ultimately prevent them from getting ahead in the long run.

Talk to some of those people and discover the fact that education in a technical field that develops solid problem solving and analytical skills does not guarantee a good career.

I know quite a few people, myself included, who found that pursuit of a Masters degree in engineering/manufacturing, of all fields, opened quite a few career opportunities.

 

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally posted by: umbrella39
Excellent commentary WS. Bravo. Almost into my 40's I realized last year my two degrees (Art & Science) just weren't cutting it. So back in college and back in debt to hopefully be one of those 3 horses you mentioned when the race is over. Thankfully they have not figured out a way to outsource respiratory therapists, yet.

They could import them into the country on foreign work visas, such as the H-1B and L-1.

Being in a field that can't be outsourced would certainly help, but in the end you'll still suffer some from the ravages of global labor wage arbitrage. Firstly, the American middle class will have less money with which to pay for your services, and secondly, other people will have the same idea as the flood into the few remaining good fields, increasing the supply of labor in those fields and driving down the wages and job opportunities. It will be good until the market catches up with you in 10-20 years.

My point is that this hurts everyone--the overwhelming majority of Americans have a selfish interest in having a healthy and growing middle class and a strong, vibrant economy and employment market. Even the people who feel secure because they think that they are in fields that are insulated from this will feel it in all sorts of ways as our society begins to suffer from economic collapse.

 

[Feldenak]

Originally posted by: dmcowen674

Originally posted by: halik
linkiee

"Delphi's misuse of the bankruptcy procedure to circumvent the collective bargaining process and slash jobs and wages and drastically reduce health care, retirement and other hard-won benefits or eliminate them altogether is a travesty and a concern for every American,"

Work in "liberty" and "pursuit of happines" and you have the emptiest press release statement of the year.

It's time that Unions are killed off and more Americans plunge into the low wages with no benefits and no retirement.

America's new proud Republican class, the Working Homeless

Ya know...I could have sworn I saw a thread started by you claiming that unions have out lived their usefulness and should be abandoned. Your hypocricy knows no bounds, does it?

 

[Svnla]

Originally posted by: Thump553
If the UAW strikes against Delphi (and the odds are pretty strong it will) it will be a bitter and nasty strike that will severely damage GM (which lost $10 BILLION last year) and all the other US auto makers. It's a lose-lose-lose situation for UAW, Delphi and GM but Delphi's union workers feel like they have no alternative. Simple human nature won't allow them to admit that their highly paid assembly jobs are history.

We are seeing the last throes of highly paid unskilled US labor-outside of governmental employment.

It's going to be a rough summer for the auto industry in particular, but this situation won't do the US economy any good either.

If Delphi is on strike, GM could be shutdown in a few days. The strike could push GM into bankruptcy. Don't take my words for it. Fortune magazine did a long article about GM and its problems.

The Tragedy of GM