Delayed gratification with crows and apes.

[William Gaatjes]

There was something i was wondering about that i read in the news.

It seems that crows (corvus genus) exhibit a sense of time because they show delayed gratification.

The researchers tested this with a transparent tube with some food in it. Both ends of the tube are open. The idea behind the experiment is that when the crow picks at the food (slightly rotting fruit) right away and ignoring the transparent wall, it has no understanding of delayed gratification. As it seems, the crows look at the food and the transparent tube and the crows go directly for the open ends.

Here is something that got me wondering, if the crow would just use sense of smell as well, would it not sense a stronger scent of food at the open ends and draw the conclusion that that is where the food is ?
I know crows are smart, but what makes sense is that crows use as much sensory input as available.

How do the scientists make sure that the sense of smell is not used and that the puzzle to be solved is primarily solved through vision and learning alone ?

 

[disappoint]

Maybe I'm not understanding this experiment well but that sounds like a horribly bad experiment to showcase delayed gratification.

They aren't delaying gratification at all. It's possible they just realize the way to get to the food right away is to go for the open ends because they can see reflections off the tube and realize it's impenetrable.

Instead, a better experiment for delayed gratification would be to have a mechanism release more food if they wait to activate it than if they activate it right away.

If I had to take a guess, and I really shouldn't, but if I did anyway because I feel like it...(yeah psychologists go on and have a field day with that one...)

If I had to take a guess I would say the "scientists" might have tried that and didn't get the results they wanted to fit their agenda so modified the experiment to get results that are, for lack of a better term, more clickbaity...ok attention grabbing would be a better term...

But of course I shouldn't have guessed because I don't have enough information having read only your OP to make that leap. Which is one of the reasons when I reference a scientific experiment or article I usually try to provide a link for more information to the reader of my post so they can ignore it and post funny cat pics rolling their eyes to get a laugh instead...

I like ellipses and occasionally take guesses when I know I shouldn't. Don't judge me.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Maybe I'm not understanding this experiment well but that sounds like a horribly bad experiment to showcase delayed gratification.

They aren't delaying gratification at all. It's possible they just realize the way to get to the food right away is to go for the open ends because they can see reflections off the tube and realize it's impenetrable.

Instead, a better experiment for delayed gratification would be to have a mechanism release more food if they wait to activate it than if they activate it right away.

If I had to take a guess, and I really shouldn't, but if I did anyway because I feel like it...(yeah psychologists go on and have a field day with that one...)

If I had to take a guess I would say the "scientists" might have tried that and didn't get the results they wanted to fit their agenda so modified the experiment to get results that are, for lack of a better term, more clickbaity...ok attention grabbing would be a better term...

But of course I shouldn't have guessed because I don't have enough information having read only your OP to make that leap. Which is one of the reasons when I reference a scientific experiment or article I usually try to provide a link for more information to the reader of my post so they can ignore it and post funny cat pics rolling their eyes to get a laugh instead...

I like ellipses and occasionally take guesses when I know I shouldn't. Don't judge me.

I fully agree, that seems a good idea to me as well. To use time as a variable in the experiment like you describe. It would greatly show the learning capabilities.
If there is one thing that is linked with intelligence, then it is the ability to track a lot of sensory input over a larger amount of time. Because that gives the ability to plan/simulate and predict. And i would think the ability to do that is a real sign of (higher) intelligence.

I found it strange as well, i just copied what i read in the news.

 

[William Gaatjes]

I have no doubt that a crow could do it. There is some research that even some species of jumping spiders (stereoscopic sight) are able to observe, plan/simulate and predict to capture their prey.
They plan their best shortest path to their prey from a distance. That means they need to have memory.
If that research about jumping spiders is true, then surely the amount of neurons needed may be less than what is currently expected.
But then again, there many different types of neurons.

 

[Moonbeam]

There was something i was wondering about that i read in the news.

It seems that crows (corvus genus) exhibit a sense of time because they show delayed gratification.

The researchers tested this with a transparent tube with some food in it. Both ends of the tube are open. The idea behind the experiment is that when the crow picks at the food (slightly rotting fruit) right away and ignoring the transparent wall, it has no understanding of delayed gratification. As it seems, the crows look at the food and the transparent tube and the crows go directly for the open ends.

Here is something that got me wondering, if the crow would just use sense of smell as well, would it not sense a stronger scent of food at the open ends and draw the conclusion that that is where the food is ?
I know crows are smart, but what makes sense is that crows use as much sensory input as available.

How do the scientists make sure that the sense of smell is not used and that the puzzle to be solved is primarily solved through vision and learning alone ?

Word is crows don't rely on a sense of smell as much as some other birds. The olfactory nerve can be deadened or cut, etc. Why are crows black is what I want to know. Can you imagine how wonderful life would be if they were colored like parrots.

 

[William Gaatjes]

Word is crows don't rely on a sense of smell as much as some other birds. The olfactory nerve can be deadened or cut, etc. Why are crows black is what I want to know. Can you imagine how wonderful life would be if they were colored like parrots.

Crows are omnivores. If i remember correctly, birds have hardly any taste. So a sense of smell about what they are about to eat would be handy.


I guess crows would be unhappy to only be colorful but not being able to control their colors like other intelligent animals alike squids and octopuses. Chameleons do not count, they have no sense of self. They are like a lot of great concepts of nature bolted together without an interface.

 

[runzwithsizorz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmJ3xuJrUcM

 

[William Gaatjes]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QmJ3xuJrUcM

I was wondering, there is a difference between trial and error and trying until you get it right, or observing, trying once, thinking about it (simulating/planning) and then executing the idea in real life.
In reality it is a bit of both, at least for humans.
It is a bit like branch prediction in a cpu, keeping a history of the chosen path, makes it possible to do a prediction. The more often it is successful, the more likely it is successful if you take that path again.
But can a crow plan ahead for a delayed gratification ?
And it seems crows do have a sense of smell.
These videos show crows have excellent memory.

 

[CZroe]

What looked like a giant freakin' raven dive-bombed my passenger side window when I was driving ~80MPH yesterday afternoon. His brains are still smeared across. It startled the hell out of my passenger but we both were collected enough to look and see the mass of mangled black feathers tumbling through the air behind us.

Stupid smart birds.

 

[William Gaatjes]

What looked like a giant freakin' Raven dive-bombed my passenger side window when I was driving ~80MPH yesterday afternoon. His brains are still smeared across. It startled the hell out of my passenger but we both were collected enough to look and see the mass of mangled black feathers tumbling through the air behind us.

Stupid smart birds.

Maybe it was ill and disorientated... :\

 

[werepossum]

There was something i was wondering about that i read in the news.

It seems that crows (corvus genus) exhibit a sense of time because they show delayed gratification.

The researchers tested this with a transparent tube with some food in it. Both ends of the tube are open. The idea behind the experiment is that when the crow picks at the food (slightly rotting fruit) right away and ignoring the transparent wall, it has no understanding of delayed gratification. As it seems, the crows look at the food and the transparent tube and the crows go directly for the open ends.

Here is something that got me wondering, if the crow would just use sense of smell as well, would it not sense a stronger scent of food at the open ends and draw the conclusion that that is where the food is ?
I know crows are smart, but what makes sense is that crows use as much sensory input as available.

How do the scientists make sure that the sense of smell is not used and that the puzzle to be solved is primarily solved through vision and learning alone ?

Pretty sure any gratification with crows and apes is illegal in Tennessee . . .

I like disappoint's version better. Build a mechanism that cycles through colors or shapes, with a door opening and a different amount (or type) of food depending in which flag is showing. See if the crow learns to wait until the "best" flag is showing before it strikes the stop button.

Word is crows don't rely on a sense of smell as much as some other birds. The olfactory nerve can be deadened or cut, etc. Why are crows black is what I want to know. Can you imagine how wonderful life would be if they were colored like parrots.

The Carolina Parakeet would like to advise the crow to be careful what it wishes for. In any case, crows have their own beauty.

Crows are omnivores. If i remember correctly, birds have hardly any taste. So a sense of smell about what they are about to eat would be handy.

I guess crows would be unhappy to only be colorful but not being able to control their colors like other intelligent animals alike squids and octopuses. Chameleons do not count, they have no sense of self. They are like a lot of great concepts of nature bolted together without an interface.

lol I know some people like that.

 

[William Gaatjes]

lol I know some people like that.

Well, it is true. I had seen a documentary over chameleons and a tiny chameleon just hatched from the egg will act all territorial towards a full grown chameleon and challenge the full grown chameleon. If chameleons would be smart, they would know that they end up like lunch very quickly with such behavior when they do not have the mass to back up their behavior. Which happens a lot.