Definition of a Person

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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It's amazing how much thinking you can get done on long road trips when you're driving alone. :D
As some of you probably noticed, I was gone all weekend on such a road trip and basically had an argument with myself on an issue that I consider to be of fundamental importance in any society: who should be granted rights? In retrospect, I think that the conclusion is extremely obvious, though I never really thought of it before going through this exercise, so I think the obviousness of it comes somewhere during the journey. Anyway, here it is. Let me know if you agree with this assessment. If people think it's worthwhile, I'll type up the rest of the story. I don't to present it together with this because it would possibly spoil the ending, plus make it prohibitively long to read.

Many efforts have been undertaken by various parties to set out criteria by which a person (i.e. an entity who may be attributed rights) must be defined. I will lay out my own personal argument for this case here.

Many arguments have been put for asserting that humanity is not sufficient cause for the granting of personhood and, therefore, rights. The arguments typically revolve around several points regarding the abilities of the embryo/fetus. A list of these arguments is provided below.

1. An embryo/fetus is only a person when it develops a heartbeat.
? This statement infers that a person is defined by having a heartbeat. Thus, rights cannot be conferred on someone suffering from cardiac arrest. Since society confers rights on those suffering from cardiac arrest, it is obvious that this is not a necessary criterion for the conferring of rights. Further, as many animals have a heartbeat but are not given rights, it is clear that this criterion is not sufficient for personhood.

2. An embryo/fetus is only a person when it develops brainwaves.
? This statement infers that a person is defined by having brainwaves. Thus, people whose brainwaves stop for any reason would be deprived rights. Obviously, this is not the case.
i. http://www.near-death.com/experiences/evidence01.html
ii. http://www.cryonics.org/surgery.html
iii. http://my.webmd.com/hw/epileps...2249.asp?printing=true
? Since society confers rights on those suffering from a lapse in brain activity, it is obvious that this is not a necessary criterion for the conferring of rights. Further, as all animals have brainwaves but are not given rights, it is clear that this criterion is not sufficient for personhood.

3. An embryo/fetus is only a person when it develops the ability to feel pain.
? This statement infers that a person is defined by having the ability to feel pain. Thus, people who cannot feel pain would be deprived rights. Since society confers rights on those suffering from a lack of the ability to feel pain (such as those lacking brain activity and under anesthesia), it is obvious that this is not a necessary criterion for the conferring of rights. Further, as many animals have the ability to feel pain but are not given rights, it is clear that this criterion is not sufficient for personhood.

So, there must be some quality that is more innate to a person than any of these quantifiable things. It is clear that society bestows rights on the condition of human life. Indeed, rights are even accorded to the human dead in most societies. Thus, it appears that humanity is sufficient for the conferment of rights, and being a member of this species appears sufficient for personhood. However, it stands to reason that society might grant rights to an alien species that have ?intelligence? similar to our own. So, then, it is necessary to determine how to quantify ?intelligence? above and beyond the level of instinctual behavior.

One might argue that ?intelligence? is the understanding of one?s surroundings.
Objection: All animals must have some level of understanding of their surroundings to survive. Thus, this criterion is obviously insufficient for personhood.

So, perhaps ?intelligence? is the development of this understanding.
Objection: All animals develop understanding of their surroundings as they mature. Thus, this criterion is obviously insufficient for personhood.

?Intelligence? is the self-motivated development of understanding.
Objection: Survival of animals seems to motivate their development of understanding of surroundings and is therefore self-motivated. Thus, this criterion is obviously insufficient for personhood.

At this point, it is clear that some distinction between the cursory ?intellect? of the common animal be differentiated from that of a person. So, perhaps the prior terminology needs adjustment and self-motivated should be replaced with conscious. Thus, ?intelligence? is the conscious development of understanding. This seems reasonable, but is heavily dependent on the definition of conscious. As previously stated, this term is used to differentiate between the instinctual behavior of a mere animal and the behavior of a person.

What, then, is this distinction? Human and animal actions are both suggested by instinct. Thus, the difference between humans and animals must be that humans have some mechanism for acting contrary to their own instinct. This mechanism must be logic, or the ability to render a choice. Combining this realization with the previously derived result (that being a member of an intelligent species is sufficient for personhood), the conclusion is obvious: personhood is warranted by all members of a species that exhibits the ability to choose.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Sorry to burst your bubbleboy, this post IS a troll, you are no woman so get out of their uterus. Who are you to judge a woman's decison, these wedge issues are blatent desperation and noone is impressed
but others who share the same view. You are a hypocrite and are doing this country a disservice. Don't like abortion, don't have one, but that is a non-issue since you are male.
Find a real issue. this issue is pointless trollbaiting and never has gotten anyone anywhere.
 

lordtyranus

Banned
Aug 23, 2004
1,324
0
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Originally posted by: steeplerot
Sorry this post IS a troll, you are no woman so get out of their uterus. Who are you to judge a woman's decison, these wedge issues are blatent desperation and noone is impressed
but others who share the same view. You are a hypocrite and are doing this country a disservice. Don't like abortion, don't have one, but that is a non-issue since you are male.
Find a real issue. this issue is pointless trollbaiting and never has gotten anyone anywhere.

Newsflash: It's not for you to decide what is and is not an issue.
 

jtusa

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2004
4,188
0
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Originally posted by: steeplerot
Sorry to burst your bubbleboy, this post IS a troll, you are no woman so get out of their uterus. Who are you to judge a woman's decison, these wedge issues are blatent desperation and noone is impressed
but others who share the same view. You are a hypocrite and are doing this country a disservice. Don't like abortion, don't have one, but that is a non-issue since you are male.
Find a real issue. this issue is pointless trollbaiting and never has gotten anyone anywhere.

I think women should keep their legs closed as opposed to slaughtering kids they "don't feel like having."
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: jtusa4

I think women should keep their legs closed as opposed to slaughtering kids they "don't feel like having."

So can I safely assume you have never had, and never would have, sex outside of marriage?
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Originally posted by: steeplerot
Sorry to burst your bubbleboy, this post IS a troll, you are no woman so get out of their uterus. Who are you to judge a woman's decison, these wedge issues are blatent desperation and noone is impressed
but others who share the same view. You are a hypocrite and are doing this country a disservice. Don't like abortion, don't have one, but that is a non-issue since you are male.
Find a real issue. this issue is pointless trollbaiting and never has gotten anyone anywhere.
As I've said before, my being a male gives me an impartial, disaffected perspective on the issue. If you're not going to discuss the ideas presented, kindly GTFO.
 

jtusa

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2004
4,188
0
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Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: jtusa4

I think women should keep their legs closed as opposed to slaughtering kids they "don't feel like having."

So can I safely assume you have never had, and never would have, sex outside of marriage?

Your assumption would be incorrect. If you can't be safe about it, don't do it.
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: jtusa4

Your assumption would be incorrect. If you can't be safe about it, don't do it.

There is no 100% safe and effective means of birth control. I think you should stop having sex altogether, as opposed to fathering children you "don't feel like having."
 

jtusa

Diamond Member
Aug 28, 2004
4,188
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Originally posted by: DonVito
Originally posted by: jtusa4

Your assumption would be incorrect. If you can't be safe about it, don't do it.

There is no 100% safe and effective means of birth control. I think you should stop having sex altogether, as opposed to fathering children you "don't feel like having."

Then so be it. But killing babies isn't the answer.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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Sorry to bother the dissemblers, but does anyone care to actually read and address what I posted above?
 
Feb 10, 2000
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Sorry to bother the dissemblers, but does anyone care to actually read and address what I posted above?

Sorry but no. It reads like an inelegant version of a George Berkeley proof, and you, sir, are no George Berkeley! :)

In all seriousness, I am VERY tired but not sleepy, and don't have the attention span at the moment. Kudos to you for bringing some thought to it, and maybe I'll check it out tomorrow by the light of day.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
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I believe that Koko the gorilla, if that is the correct spelling of her? name will tell you when she wants an apple or an orange. I think animals choose all the time and do so with great volition. And what is instinct but a sort of frozen choice.

The fundamental problem I think you have is that you don't know who you are and that is why you think so much. I myself am a chimp and don't think about stuff like this. You want to be moral and I want to share a banana and swing through the trees.

I found this comment rather revealing:

"Thus, the difference between humans and animals must be that humans have some mechanism for acting contrary to their own instinct."

Hehe, we see this profoundly differently I think, but I do agree. The difference between man and animals is that we do in fact act contrary to our instinct. Before Knowledge of Good and Evil we lived in the Garden of Eden with a single unified consciousness and we were completely and totally real. We were nothing but instinct, nothing but the human animal that we are. We were the universe, the totality of our conscious experience, no I was there to analyze and separate and name. Everything was us and we were everything. We were perfect in unity and one with the universe or God, if you like that idea.

With the advent of language we named and invented that which has no counterpart in reality, the concept of opposites and duality. Now there was I and thou, the tree the limb the branch, and the good and the bad. We named our children and called them evil. Poor little children now knew and experienced psychic death, the hate and contempt of what they were born to be. We repressed those memories and became an animal that lives in sleep. We became the false ego, looking always to be good to deny that feeling of self loathing.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
...
So do you believe that there are no right or wrong actions, and that assigning right-ness or wrong-ness is merely a human construct?

[edit]I suppose I should address the rest of your post as well. It's late. :p

The reason I think so much about such things is that I believe life has meaning. That meaning is not as we define it. Instead, that meaning is existing and we must discover it. So, when I get done studying math for 12 hours, I guess my brain gets stuck in logic mode and I try to figure out a couple pieces of the greater puzzle. :p I believe that in determining this purpose or meaning, I can more actively work towards it and therefore give something back to the greater community. How significant that contribution is depends largely on how early in life I can discover what it is I should be doing. It varies person to person based on what their own talents are.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
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To put what I said before directly toward your question, there is no such thing as a person. A person is an illusion. There is only the infinite universe undivided and you and I are one. The self disappears in the Infinite Love of God when the true self shines forth with infinite Love.

He who dies in His name shall find eternal life.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
...
So do you believe that there are no right or wrong actions, and that assigning right-ness or wrong-ness is merely a human construct?

Not on your life. As recent experiments with monkeys have shown, monkeys understand justice and will refuse to cooperate with you if you treat them unfairly. If you give one monkey a hard job to do and give him a small reward and give another a large reward for doing something easy, the first monkey will not play. He knows he's getting screwed. :D

And besides if you have ever been around anybody out of whom infinite love is pouring you know that every action they make is the Will of God. I think you are a Christian, so for you that model should be Christ.
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
And besides if you have ever been around anybody out of whom infinite love is pouring you know that every action they make is the Will of God. I think you are a Christian, so for you that model should be Christ.
Agreed. But the point of what I'm trying to do here is develop a definition that transcends religion, as religious-based arguments are dismissed out of hand by members of other religions. In my previous post, I wasn't trying to infer that I am searching for a model for my life. Instead, searching more for a specific plan of action or end goal.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,812
6,777
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Originally posted by: CycloWizard
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
...
So do you believe that there are no right or wrong actions, and that assigning right-ness or wrong-ness is merely a human construct?

[edit]I suppose I should address the rest of your post as well. It's late. :p

The reason I think so much about such things is that I believe life has meaning. That meaning is not as we define it. Instead, that meaning is existing and we must discover it. So, when I get done studying math for 12 hours, I guess my brain gets stuck in logic mode and I try to figure out a couple pieces of the greater puzzle. :p I believe that in determining this purpose or meaning, I can more actively work towards it and therefore give something back to the greater community. How significant that contribution is depends largely on how early in life I can discover what it is I should be doing. It varies person to person based on what their own talents are.

Every lover who loves to his limit is infinite in his love.

I tried to do what you are doing and I failed. I examined everything I could find in my search for truth. Perhaps unfortunately for me I met no real Christians and so I lost my faith and every thing I held dear. I found in the end that life is totally without meaning. There is no way that thought can find truth or prove there is anything good. It broke my heart and my life went black. I lived with the certain knowledge that I would always be utterly and completely unhappy.

I chanced to find a book on Zen that contained two expressions that were to my mind a powerful shock, suggestions that life is perfect without meaning. This enraged me unimaginably. What sort of freaks were these. How can they know what I know and laugh. Deep in thought on this problem in the middle of the night the wind a blast of wind hit the house and there I was as perfect as can be.

When everything is taken from you that can be taken, what is left is what can't be taken. In a split second I went from misery to something I can't describe, silent awake total consciousness and self disappearance into wind. I got it all in an instant. The fact that life is meaningless is totally meaningless. The puppy dog wags its tail and the monkey swings in the tree. The thing that the mind cannot touch is the love that's in the heart. It is what is left when everything is taken and you let go of what you have lost.

 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
6
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Good stuff here if you can get it wrapped around reminds me of one of my favorite quotes besides the staring at the stars one:


"There is no line between the 'real world' and 'world of myth and symbol.' Objects, sensations, hit with the impact of hallucination."
-William Burroughs


cool I am going to change my sig now that I got inspired here...
 

CycloWizard

Lifer
Sep 10, 2001
12,348
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Originally posted by: Moonbeam
...
That's the most heartfelt sincere post I've read by far. :beer:

I have to say that my own life, experiences, and thoughts are the exact opposite of your own. I have come to know many good Christians. I have never, nor will I ever, met a perfect Christian. But it is these imperfections that make us perfect. If everyone were perfect or even generally good in all of his actions, it would be easy to love unconditionally. The challenge arises to love despite the evil or wrongdoing. Thus, it is due to these imperfections that I see perfection shining through - maybe not in an individual, but in people in general. For example, I'm living in a new city and I moved here less than two months ago not knowing anyone within 200 miles. The only people I know on campus are the five people in my class. None of them are hard-core Christian - one Hindu from India, one Buddhist from China, and three pseudo-Christians (not exactly sure how they would define themselves, but they're not church-goers). But on my b-day last week, they all got together and took me out for pizza after class. In this small act of kindness of virtual strangers, I realized the greatness of the human spirit. I realize it almost every day in one manifestation or another - any time someone performs some small sacrifice or deed to uplift someone else when they could just as easily ignore them. So, I believe that life can have meaning and that that meaning is not dependent on one's particular religion or philosophy. Instead, it is actually common to all religions and philosophies.
 

Steeplerot

Lifer
Mar 29, 2004
13,051
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I'm glad to see the thread tone down but I know you mean well being worried about the smallest of all.
But this is just one of those issues Americans are going to have to agree to disagree about.
I and many people in this country feel war is murder also.
I don't think there is a way to truely argue or talk this issue out.
It's black and white and almost always is impossible to carry out a rational debate since it is all literal to each of us.
I can see that it is important to you and see why.
But this doesen't work,
we could focus on so much more need nowdays in USA and still let everyone have their way on these "wedge" issues. (If you find these things immoral then do not participate.)
It is the way this country works best.
If all decisions were based off of one point of view no matter how justified to one large majority we would not have a democracy would we?