Deficit Dodge Ball

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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E.J. Dionne, left-leaning and an Obama supporter, talked about the deficit in today's Post.
Link

Deficit Dodge Ball
Will Anyone Admit That Taxes Have to Rise?

By E.J. Dionne Jr.

The debate on the budget is phony, the howling on deficits a charade. Few politicians want to acknowledge that if you really are concerned about long-term deficits, you have to support tax increases.

That's why the most significant moment of President Obama's news conference on Tuesday was not his dodge of a question on AIG but his defense of the least popular tax increase in his budget: limits on the benefits wealthier taxpayers get for their charitable contributions and mortgage payments.

It has been a long time since a president was willing to defend raising taxes. You have to go back to Bill Clinton and his 1993 budget. The consequences for Democrats who voted for that budget -- no Republicans did -- were grave. Republicans swept the 1994 elections and held on to the House for 12 years. No wonder politicians are so phobic about taxes.

Obama himself is going only part of the way on tax increases. He is still arguing that he can fix things with hikes on just the top 5 percent of taxpayers.

He's right that a large share of any increase should hit those who enjoyed the biggest income gains over the past decade. But in the end, no politician (with the possible exception of libertarian Ron Paul) is willing to cut the budget enough to contain the deficit without a general tax increase down the road.
Every budget analyst knows this, and every politician knows that it's far easier to bemoan deficits in the abstract than to risk spending cuts or tax increases that hurt sizable groups of voters. "There are no more low-hanging fruit," says Tom Kahn, the staff director for the House Budget Committee. "The low-hanging fruit have already been picked. Any tax increase or spending cut is going to trigger opposition from somewhere."

In an ideal world, Obama would come right out and say we'll need broad-based tax increases. But that would be suicidal right now. Witness the reaction to his effort to put a 28 percent ceiling on deductions. His proposal would affect only 1.2 percent of taxpayers, yet even that idea seems to be dying in Congress.

Obama's proposal is based on a sound intuition: Do we really believe it's fair that when a married couple with a taxable income of $50,000 gives $1,000 to charity, they get a tax benefit of $150, while a couple earning $1 million making exactly the same contribution gets back $350? Is it fair that the higher-income couple also gets a bigger tax advantage on their mortgage payments?

The value of the deductions is currently worth more to the higher-income couple because they pay taxes at a higher rate. Obama wouldn't even close the whole gap. Applied to this example, his 28 percent cap would still let the wealthier couple deduct $280.

Yet even this modest effort to raise money to pay for health-care reform is falling under a hail of fire from those who say the president wants to hurt private charities. Obama was quite right when he said at his news conference that the effect of this change on charitable giving would be small: Using 2007 figures, the liberal Center on Budget and Policy Priorities found that Obama's change would reduce charitable contributions only marginally -- from $306 billion to $302 billion.

Is that too much for nonprofits to give up so the country can cover the costs of health care for the needy? The truth is that the opponents of making any changes in the amount the wealthy can deduct are using solicitude for the private charities to kill the whole plan.

Fine, kill it. But then, how else will we pay for health-care reform? Obama's across-the-board limits on itemized deductions would raise $318 billion over 10 years. Does anyone have a less painful way to raise that much money?

The larger problem is the emptiness of all the howling over the long-term deficits. Nibbling away at bits of Obama's proposed budget will do very little about them. Talk of "entitlement reform" is empty unless we have health-care reform -- and unless we acknowledge that we will never cut Medicare and Social Security enough to close the budget gap. In fact, Social Security is more important than ever, now that the value of so many 401(k)s has plummeted.

The task of those who genuinely care about deficits is to make the world safe for tax increases. Under current conditions, it's a whole lot easier for politicians to talk a lot about deficits, and then just let them grow.

I don't agree with his solution of dealing with deficits primarily by raising taxes, but at least he's being honest about the costs of the Obama agenda, and the seriousness of continuing deficit spending. Also, he's right - last time the Dems raised taxes ('93), they essentially laid out the red carpet for Newt Gingrich and the GOP, so unless the Dems have very, very short memories, they're not going to do it again. Any tax increase in the near future is going to be very, very small (if anything), which means large deficits for the immediate and long-term future. Obviously, that's unsustainable, but I can't realistically see any other way. No one wants to cut, no one wants to tax, and no one wants to stop spending - that's just the reality of the situation, and it's looking pretty grim.

(And BTW for the various die-hard partisans, I'm not blaming either party specifically - they've both had amble chance to prove they're fiscally irresponsible, and they're both equally guilty.)
 

BoberFett

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
37,562
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"No republic has long outlived the discovery by a majority of its people that they could vote themselves largesse from the public treasury." - Alexander Tytler


Everyone wants the government to provide their benefits but nobody wants to pay the bill.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
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Democrats are tax and spend, republicans are spend and borrow. Maybe Obama can be the first republican democrat, but I doubt it. Ultimately taxes will likely go up to help pay for this huge increase in government under Obama.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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Obama's proposal is based on a sound intuition: Do we really believe it's fair that when a married couple with a taxable income of $50,000 gives $1,000 to charity, they get a tax benefit of $150, while a couple earning $1 million making exactly the same contribution gets back $350? Is it fair that the higher-income couple also gets a bigger tax advantage on their mortgage payments?

If its fair that Couple A pays 15% while B pays 35%? Yeah.
 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
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I think he is forgetting Hillarycare also hurt Democrats and Clintons arrival was full of scandals from his picks.

I think the 94 election was more than just people pissed about a tax increase.
 

heyheybooboo

Diamond Member
Jun 29, 2007
6,278
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Originally posted by: Genx87
I think he is forgetting Hillarycare also hurt Democrats and Clintons arrival was full of scandals from his picks.

I think the 94 election was more than just people pissed about a tax increase.

This.

Those anti-health care spots (Harry and Louise) were devastating in 1994. The only more effective spot I've ever seen from a political standpoint were the Jesse Helm's ""White Hands"" and Bush 41's ""Willie Horton"".

Much more effective than the 'Swift-boating'

 

GTaudiophile

Lifer
Oct 24, 2000
29,767
33
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I wonder what would happen if Obama brought Ron Paul on as an advisor?

Forget about deficits. I will vote for anyone who seriously commits to reducing and eliminating our federal debt.

Debt is slavery. Debt is the tie that binds our feet in our march towards progress. Debt is the rock that drowns us.

Obama could truly achieve greatness if he were to free us from the bondage of debt and set us free as a nation.

The savings as a result of no debt interest payments alone would do wonders for funding.

Short term pain for long term progress I say. Even if this pain means raising taxes, bringing just about all aspects of government to a halt, laying off masses of government employees, stopping wars, cutting defense, etc.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Someone remind this guy that we balanced the budget in the 90s by controlling spending and a slight increase in taxes.

In 1991 government spending was 22.3% of GDP by 2000 it was down to 18.4%. A 4% decrease.

Government revenue we from 17.5% to 20% near the end of the decade.

The problem we are going to have with Obama's budget is that he wants spending to hit something like 23% of GDP or more.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Democrats are tax and spend, republicans are spend and borrow.

That's really not true, at least in my lifetime. Democrats are sometimes honest enough to admit a willingness to raise taxes to close the budget gaps, but how often do they really do it? They might not have controlled the White House most of the past 40 years, but they've controlled Congress a good part of that time, and never really made a serious push (outside of the '93 increases, which blew up in their faces) to increase taxes to close budget shortfalls. Both parties are borrow and spend.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Democrats are tax and spend, republicans are spend and borrow.

That's really not true, at least in my lifetime. Democrats are sometimes honest enough to admit a willingness to raise taxes to close the budget gaps, but how often do they really do it? They might not have controlled the White House most of the past 40 years, but they've controlled Congress a good part of that time, and never really made a serious push (outside of the '93 increases, which blew up in their faces) to increase taxes to close budget shortfalls. Both parties are borrow and spend.
Both are primarily borrow and spend, but looking at the increase in deficit during republican administrations over the past few decades, clearly notwithstanding what is likely with Obama, the debt grows wildly under republicans. It pretty much grows under both, though, just not to the same degree.

 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: heyheybooboo
Originally posted by: Genx87
I think he is forgetting Hillarycare also hurt Democrats and Clintons arrival was full of scandals from his picks.

I think the 94 election was more than just people pissed about a tax increase.

This.

Those anti-health care spots (Harry and Louise) were devastating in 1994. The only more effective spot I've ever seen from a political standpoint were the Jesse Helm's ""White Hands"" and Bush 41's ""Willie Horton"".

Much more effective than the 'Swift-boating'

I don't agree. Yes, Hillarycare died in August/Sept. '94, before the elections, but it also never came to a full up-or-down vote in either chamber, so individual Dems couldn't be said to have actually voted for it. From what I remember of the time, most of the attack ads run by the GOP at the time against individual Dem incumbents focused on those that voted for the tax increases (which was a majority). That was really what turned the tide on the Congressional Dems.

Regardless of how one interprets the '94 elections, the author is right that tax increases are about as popular as Ann Coulter at a NOW convention (see the huge resistence to the modification of the charitable deduction already note above), and no meaningful effort will be made to close the budget deficits with significant tax increases.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
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Mursilis, there was a vote on Hillarycare in the Senate where it went down 99-0 I believe.

It was actually introduced by a Republican as a way to make a point about how bad her plan really was.
 

winnar111

Banned
Mar 10, 2008
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Someone remind this guy that we balanced the budget in the 90s by controlling spending and a slight increase in taxes.

In 1991 government spending was 22.3% of GDP by 2000 it was down to 18.4%. A 4% decrease.

Government revenue we from 17.5% to 20% near the end of the decade.

The problem we are going to have with Obama's budget is that he wants spending to hit something like 23% of GDP or more.

And this year's growth in non-defense discretionary spending is growing at 10%. HE talks about reducing it while increasing it at the same time.

Shrug.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Mursilis, there was a vote on Hillarycare in the Senate where it went down 99-0 I believe.

It was actually introduced by a Republican as a way to make a point about how bad her plan really was.

I remember some procedural votes about forcing it out of committee, etc., but I don't remember any votes on the legislation itself. As far as I remember (and I'm not pretending to be certain), the legislation never came to a full vote in either chamber.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
7,756
11
81
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Originally posted by: Mursilis
Originally posted by: Skoorb
Democrats are tax and spend, republicans are spend and borrow.

That's really not true, at least in my lifetime. Democrats are sometimes honest enough to admit a willingness to raise taxes to close the budget gaps, but how often do they really do it? They might not have controlled the White House most of the past 40 years, but they've controlled Congress a good part of that time, and never really made a serious push (outside of the '93 increases, which blew up in their faces) to increase taxes to close budget shortfalls. Both parties are borrow and spend.
Both are primarily borrow and spend, but looking at the increase in deficit during republican administrations over the past few decades, clearly notwithstanding what is likely with Obama, the debt grows wildly under republicans. It pretty much grows under both, though, just not to the same degree.

I'm tempted to quibble about the role Congress plays in crafting fiscal policy, but I'll just leave it by agreeing with you on the bolded part, which is common ground and the sad truth.
 

ElFenix

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Mar 20, 2000
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Originally posted by: GTaudiophile

The savings as a result of no debt interest payments alone would do wonders for funding.

wat?
 

BansheeX

Senior member
Sep 10, 2007
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Originally posted by: Skoorb
Democrats are tax and spend, republicans are spend and borrow. Maybe Obama can be the first republican democrat, but I doubt it. Ultimately taxes will likely go up to help pay for this huge increase in government under Obama.

It's far more trivial a difference than that. They both do pretty much the same thing, the only difference is Dems campaign on it being a good thing, then do it, while Republicans campaign on it being a bad thing, then do it. The voter hasn't quite figured out how to spot the sincere Republican when it's actually a pretty easy litmus test: do they receive campaign financing from a lobby group? If so, they are not sincere.

Taxes (physical appropriations) serve more of a redistribution purpose, they don't have much to do with the cost of government in a fiat environment unless the cut in taxes corresponds with a cut in spending. This is why it is accurate and common to hear libertarians say that the cost of government is not what it taxes, but what it spends. One of the funny sleight of hands Bush did was lower taxes slightly, but borrow and inflate way, way more than that. It gave him the appearance of being Santa Claus to the sheeple, but in reality the amount he was giving back in the present was negated and then some by the amount he was taking from the future.
 

JS80

Lifer
Oct 24, 2005
26,271
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Originally posted by: BoberFett
"No republic has long outlived the discovery by a majority of its people that they could vote themselves largesse from the public treasury." - Alexander Tytler


Everyone wants the government to provide their benefits but nobody wants to pay the bill.

Technically China's paying the bill and we can ultimately demand they buy US goods with their dollar reserve or stiff them on their treasury holdings.
 

Mursilis

Diamond Member
Mar 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: LTC8K6
How can they be very, very wrong?

Those trillions are real...

Still projections, not actual numbers. Could be better, could be worse.
 

frostedflakes

Diamond Member
Mar 1, 2005
7,925
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Taxes are definitely going to have to go up, the lower and middle class folks who thought we could pay for all of these programs by taxing only the rich will be in for a rude awakening. I'd expect we'll see an overall income tax increase sometime during his second term (obviously it would be political suicide if he tried to push it through in his first).
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
They balanced the budget in the 90's by cutting back to a leaner meaner military that was not even large enough to control the country of Iraq. This was with every known national guard and reserve unit being called up to active duty. The Military level is not important till you need them. Heaven forbid the United States was ever attacked. It is kind of obvious that we need more infantry and more support troops. As the gangs down in Mexico get more active we may need to consider military troops along our southern border.

Imagine working for 10 months just to pay off the Interest on the budget.

The problem with Tax increases is that there is a tendency for the Federal Government to spend every dime they have. This is what destroyed Social Security.

What we need most are Term Limits.