Decoding ATI's Radeon 8500 clock speed scramble **UPDATE** ATi responds on clock speed issue

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Sugadaddy

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May 12, 2000
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I don't see what the problem is, the only official GeForce2 NVIDIA chips are the:

GTS


<< Pro
Ultra
Ti 200
Go
Mx
MX200
MX400


But they are all CLEARLY labled as such and there is no despcrency. Remember, NVIDIA ONLY makes the chip. They don't make the card. What the board maker does is out of it's control. You don't see NVIDIA selling a GeForce2 Pro as an Ultra even though the clock speeds are different. They have two seperate names.

ATI should use 8500 for retail and 8200 for OEM to alleviate the problem. >>




Exactly my point. ATI isn't selling RETAIL Radeons clocked at different speeds. They have the RETAIL version, and the OEM, two different cards. They might both be called Radeon 8500, but it's up to you to see the difference between a shiny black and red box, and a brown lunch bag... ;)


And come on, you don't think the Geforce 2 Pro clocked at 366MHz when the official spec was 400MHz is just as messed up as this?
 
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RaiderJ

Diamond Member
Apr 29, 2001
7,582
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<<
<<
<<<
Low class behavior... Give me a break!
<<<

You bet it is. Selling two different cards as one and the same is very low class behavior. Like it was said earlier, if ATI sold the cards as two different ones, that would be fine. But for those of us who purchase a OEM card thinking it's just a retail card w/o all the extra packaging, it's very dissapointing.

I went from a TNT2 card to my current Radeon 64MB DDR, which I am very pleased with. However, in my next upgrade, I'm going to stick with NVIDIA. Their cards perform better, have better drivers, and NVIDIA doesn't try and push this kind of marketing past consumers.

I think ATI makes great cards, and it's really sad that they overshadow this with poor drivers and poor marketing. I think most would agree that ATI would have a happy customer base if they fixed these issues, even if they didn't beat out NVIDIA in performance tests. >>




Lower clocked OEM video cards is not new, it's been like this for a long time. And you say nVidia is better? Let's look at the Geforce 2 for example (with clock speeds in parentheses):

Geforce 2 GTS (200/333) 32 or 64 MB
Geforce 2 Pro (200/400) 64 MB
Geforce 2 fake Pro, known as the GTS Pro and not officially recognized by nVidia (200/366) 32 or 64 MB
Geforce 2 Ultra (250/460) 64 MB
Geforce 2 Ti 400 (250/400) 64MB
Geforce 2 GTS-V, not an official nVidia product (175/286) 32 MB
Geforce 2 Pro450, made by Gainward and not an official nVidia product (200/450) 64 MB


That's 9 different cards if you count the ram... Now that's a mess!

And notice that all those 9 cards (including the ones NOT officially made by NVIDIA, why did you include these?), are labelled different. My issue with ATI is that they told customers that the cards (OEM vs Retail) were one and the same, as you can see by the confusion of those out there who received a 250 Mhz board. If ATI sold the cards as two different cards, that would be fine.

Is NVIDIA better than ATI? I'm not sure. Maybe if ATI had better drivers, the 8500 could outperform the Ti500. The specs listed by ATI for the 8500 seem to sound like it could, but in the comparison tests done on the two boards, the Ti500 did better than the 8500 in most cases.

But why am I switching to NVIDIA for my next go-round? Because I disaprove of ATI's marketing practices, and their poor driver support. Nothing like bad drivers can kill a perfectly good card.
 
NFS4

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
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<< Exactly my point. ATI isn't selling RETAIL Radeons clocked at different speeds. They have the RETAIL version, and the OEM, two different cards. They might both be called Radeon 8500, but it's up to you to see the difference between a shiny black and red box, and a brown lunch bag... ;)


And come on, you don't think the Geforce 2 Pro clocked at 366MHz when the official spec was 400MHz is just as messed up as this? >>


It should be up to them to differentiate the two products and stop making vauge or misleading comments about the clock speeds on their cards. Why call a chip an 8500 when it doesn't run at full spec? At least call it an 8500LE or something like that.

And personally, I have never heard of those "other" GF2 variants that you mention. That's news to me.

Still, I have no beef with ATI, just the way they are going about this clock speed issue.
 
S

Sugadaddy

Banned
May 12, 2000
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<< And notice that all those 9 cards (including the ones NOT officially made by NVIDIA, why did you include these?), are labelled different. My issue with ATI is that they told customers that the cards (OEM vs Retail) were one and the same, as you can see by the confusion of those out there who received a 250 Mhz board. If ATI sold the cards as two different cards, that would be fine. >>



Hello, nVidia doesn't make ANY video cards!!!


And the Radeon 8500 aren't named the same, one is called OEM and the other is called RETAIL, not the same word. From your reasoning, I could say all those nVidia cards are named Geforce 2's, why aren't they all clocked the same?


And I already I agreed that ATI shouldn't have said that all OEM cards would be clocked at 275/275, but that's not what the original subject of this thread was.
 
NFS4

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
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<< And the Radeon 8500 aren't named the same, one is called OEM and the other is called RETAIL, not the same word. >>


Everyone has a general IDEA of what OEM means. ATI is the only one that faulters from that standard.

An OEM 1.4GHz Athlon performs like a Retail 1.4GHz Athlon
An OEM 2.0GHz P4 performs like a Retail 2.0GHz P4
An OEM IBM hard drive performs the same as a retail IBM hard drive.

Get my drift? Simply calling them OEM and Retail ain't gonna cut it for the Radeon b/c they do not perform the same
 
S

Sugadaddy

Banned
May 12, 2000
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NF4, the Visiontek GTS-V and Gainward Pro 450 are both sold at Newegg...


And I don't care either, I just think it's weird for people to be calling ATI the antichrist for something that's been done in the video card industry for a long time. After seeing the review of the Ti200 and Ti500, I was almost sure I'd be getting a Radeon 8500. When I learned that SOME OEM cards were clocked lower, I didn't freak out, I just told myself I'd make sure to get the real retail version, no big deal. At least this way I was sure to get a 275/275 card...


But all that doesn't matter now since my next card should be a Ti200 or plain GF3. :)
 
rbV5

rbV5

Lifer
Dec 10, 2000
12,632
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<< An OEM 1.4GHz Athlon performs like a Retail 1.4GHz Athlon >>



Only if you add a HSF, otherwise it'll perform like a keychain.
 
S

Sugadaddy

Banned
May 12, 2000
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<<

<< And the Radeon 8500 aren't named the same, one is called OEM and the other is called RETAIL, not the same word. >>


Everyone has a general IDEA of what OEM means. ATI is the only one that faulters from that standard.

An OEM 1.4GHz Athlon performs like a Retail 1.4GHz Athlon
An OEM 2.0GHz P4 performs like a Retail 2.0GHz P4
An OEM IBM hard drive performs the same as a retail IBM hard drive.

Get my drift? Simply calling them OEM and Retail ain't gonna cut it for the Radeon b/c they do not perform the same >>




I know, but it's been done with video cards before...

BTW, I remember some hard drives having a smaller buffer. And the CPU example is a little weak since we use their clock speed to differentiate them. If they clock it lower, it's not a 2GHz anymore... ;)
 
NFS4

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
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91


<<

<< An OEM 1.4GHz Athlon performs like a Retail 1.4GHz Athlon >>



Only if you add a HSF, otherwise it'll perform like a keychain. >>


LOL :)

But you get the point :)
 
S

Sugadaddy

Banned
May 12, 2000
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<<

<< An OEM 1.4GHz Athlon performs like a Retail 1.4GHz Athlon >>



Only if you add a HSF, otherwise it'll perform like a keychain. >>




LMAO :D


See, it's missing something... ;)
 
S

Sugadaddy

Banned
May 12, 2000
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<< Geez...retail or oem... i'm not buying either one unless they fix those drivers. :) >>




Thank you, the voice of reason has spoken.


...And I'm hungry.
 
NFS4

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
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<< Geez...retail or oem... i'm not buying either one unless they fix those drivers. :) >>


Well, the said mid-november so I guess we'll see :)
 
C

CTho9305

Elite Member
Jul 26, 2000
9,214
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see their quake3 cheat? they drop the quality on Quake3 to raise the FPS. the driver recognizes the name "quake 3" to do its evilness
 
R

Remedy

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 1999
3,981
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I don't get it, if your not going to buy an ATi Radeon 8500 then why bother popping up new threads about it? There must be just as many threads on ATi issues with just as many post i have logged. How many times does this forum need to discuss the clock issue? Its not going to get any better so why discuss for everyday? ATi did the samething last year with the first radeon's. The retail was 183sync and the oem was 166 i think and didn't kyle drop a bomb on them last year over it? Remember when S3 brought the savage2000 with T&L but yet ppl bought it and found out other wise "Look Ma no TnL" . Anyways my point is if your not going to buy the card or you don't have it then why stress it? It shouldn't matter to you in the first place. I'm not pointing anyone out just don't understnd the purpose of so many threads on the same issue.
 
NFS4

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
47
91


<< I don't get it, if your not going to buy an ATi Radeon 8500 then why bother popping up new threads about it? There must be just as many threads on ATi issues with just as many post i have logged. How many times does this forum need to discuss the clock issue? Its not going to get any better so why discuss for everyday? ATi did the samething last year with the first radeon's. The retail was 183sync and the oem was 166 i think and didn't kyle drop a bomb on them last year over it? Remember when S3 brought the savage2000 with T&L but yet ppl bought it and found out other wise "Look Ma no TnL" . Anyways my point is if your not going to buy the card or you don't have it then why stress it? It shouldn't matter to you in the first place. I'm not pointing anyone out just don't understnd the purpose of so many threads on the same issue. >>


I'm not going to buy a P4. Does that mean that I shouldn't post a topic about the P4? Where's the logic in that??

The Tech Report posted a new article on clock speeds, and I posted a link. If you have a problem with that, then that's YOUR problem :)
 
R

Remedy

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 1999
3,981
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I don't have a problem with you or your threads, I just don't understand the post in most of the threads. Its mostly bash ATi this and bash VIA that. I haven't seen anything to a benefit of learning something about this topic with post in here. I look at the majority of the post in the threads on this topic and the only ones i see having a good discussion on it is you and sugar daddy. My point and understanding is way off so carry on.
 
NFS4

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
47
91


<< I don't have a problem with you or your threads, I just don't understand the post in most of the threads. Its mostly bash ATi this and bash VIA that. I haven't seen anything to a benefit of learning something about this topic with post in here. I look at the majority of the post in the threads on this topic and the only ones i see having a good discussion on it is you and sugar daddy. My point and understanding is way off so carry on. >>


Well, I think that most are just upset over the issue. It doesn't really bother me as I don't have an 8500, but that doesn't mean that the issues shouldn't be discussed. But I see your point.
 
R

Remedy

Diamond Member
Dec 1, 1999
3,981
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0
BTW, what did you do with your AIW Radeon 32meg? I notice you went and actually(me blinks rapidly) bought an Nvidia Ti200? Hmm since we are bothing hogging the same blackguy icon:), Can i have your old AiW? I mean we are brothers here....
 
NFS4

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
47
91


<< BTW, what did you do with your AIW Radeon 32meg? I notice you went and actually(me blinks rapidly) bought an Nvidia Ti200? Hmm since we are bothing hogging the same blackguy icon:), Can i have your old AiW? I mean we are brothers here.... >>


LOL, the AIW went back home ;) I picked the Ti200 up from the boarding house a few weeks ago...he may see a trip back home on down the road :D
 
LintMan

LintMan

Senior member
Apr 19, 2001
474
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I just took a look over at the DELL web site for their radeon 8500 deal. Nowhere in their description does it mention 'oem' or 'retail'. If you order from them, which do you get? How can you tell? All it says is "Radeon 8500". Most people here are guessing OEM, but how is someone who isn't quite so knowledgable supposed to know that. (For that matter, people buying there might not even know what OEM means)

That's part of the problem with just using oem vs retail to distinguish performance - it's not always specified.
 
NFS4

NFS4

No Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
72,636
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ATI reponds to OEM card controversy


<< 3) When introducing its new 7500/8500 product naming scheme, did ATI ever consider assigning a different name to its 250/250MHz cards, like "Radeon 8200" or "Radeon 8500 LE"? Why did ATI decide against providing this kind of product differentiation information to its customers?

ATI looked at a number of subbranding variants and has settled on a name for the RADEON 8500-based chip that it will sell to OEMs, ODMs and AIBs. That announcement will be made shortly by the Company. The name we have settled on will serve to clearly differentiate ATI's RADEON 8500 275/275 offering from its 250/250 offering. We apologize for any confusion that may have occurred amongst our various publics as a result of assisting our AIB partners to quickly penetrate the market with our technology. There will be complete clarity soon. Stay tuned. >>


About time ;)
 
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