Decisions..Decisions....Looking for some guidence on a new build.

[Sleepingforest]

I don't know how accurate these things are, but just for Grinns & Giggles I went to Newegg's Power Calculator and this what it showed. I entered what I could to be as close to the build I have in mind.

I'm not sure why you would trust a site which has a vested interest in getting you to buy a bigger PSU over an unaffiliated 3rd party site that actually tested the power draw in a real system. There is flat-out no way two 7950s and a CPU consume nearly 900W. My overclocked i5 and GTX 670 consume 160ish watts from the wall while gaming, except during VERY demanding scenes (when the framerate drops) and even then it rarely even gets to 300W.

Even two Titans in SLI don't take up 800W. Case fans, HDDs, SSDs, and optical drives consumer very little--if you look at reviews, often between only 2 and 5 watts. Look at the actual fan specifications: they usually run at around .2 amps and 7-12 volts; since P = IV, the power consumption of a fan is only around 2 watts.

 

[Sporinator]

Never trust a power supply calculator provided by somebody who sells power supplies. 7950 CFX would be perfectly fine on a 750W PSU.

LOL

That is EXACTLY what my first thought was when I saw that thing.

Lulz

 

[Sporinator]

Great, now I can get started! Here's a solid workstation build that packs a lot into less than $2500 and avoids fear-based decision making (e.g. silly tweaker mobos and 1000W PSUs).

Xeon E3-1240V2 $275
ASUS P8C WS $240
Kingson DDR3 1600 UDIMM 32GB $284
AMD FirePro W7000 $360 AP - equivalent to 7870 for gaming
LSI 9260-8i RAID controller $485
SFF-8087 to SATA breakout x2 $40
Samsung 840 Pro 256GB $250
Reuse four existing mech. HDDs (1TB and 500GB RAID 1) $0
LG Blu-Ray burner $60
Seasonic M12II 620W $75 AP
Fractal Design R4 $80 AP
Hyper 212+ $20 AR
Total: $2169 AR AP

There's still enough left in the budget for you to add some 2-3TB drives if you need more storage. Plug the SSD and ODD (i.e. non-RAID drives) into the mobo and the RAIDed HDDs into the LSI.

Thank you VERY MUCH for taking the time to put that together for me. I'll get to going over it and seeing what I can do.

One question, shouldn't I really have a Battery Backup on the LSI RAID card? Or is the data still SAFE to run without one. I mean, the system IS hooked to the APC 1500 UPS, but if I get a BSOD for some damn reason, or the PSU bites the dust in the middle of a write, will the card still write the Cache without the Battery Backup if the system did a restart or shut down suddenly without having one?

I've never used a TRUE RAID card before due to the Price.

Thanks again.

Sincerely,

David

 

[Sporinator]

I'm not sure why you would trust a site which has a vested interest in getting you to buy a bigger PSU over an unaffiliated 3rd party site that actually tested the power draw in a real system. There is flat-out no way two 7950s and a CPU consume nearly 900W. My overclocked i5 and GTX 670 consume 160ish watts from the wall while gaming, except during VERY demanding scenes (when the framerate drops) and even then it rarely even gets to 300W.

Even two Titans in SLI don't take up 800W. Case fans, HDDs, SSDs, and optical drives consumer very little--if you look at reviews, often between only 2 and 5 watts. Look at the actual fan specifications: they usually run at around .2 amps and 7-12 volts; since P = IV, the power consumption of a fan is only around 2 watts.

Ok, I "think" I understand what you're saying.

I'm of a mind that the AMPERAGE on the rails and the efficiency of the circuits also play a role.

I did Industrial Wiring for Automated Proto-Type Machinery from the Mid 1980's to the Late 1990's.

Using Buck & Boost transformers, Power Control Boxes.A/C & D/C power integration and extensive use of PLC's. (Programmable Logic Controllers.)

I no longer have any of my Testing Equipment. (Story to NEVER be told. Lulz) But I do still remember a few things.

It is ALWAYS better to err on the side of TOO MUCH "CLEAN & STABLE" power "reserves" for peak instances with headroom, than be on the short side.

Hence me looking at the MORE efficient PSU's. Not to save on my electric bill but to get CLEAN & STABLE Power to my system. With PLENTY to spare in case I get a Wild Hair up My Arse!!

I don't know what interest Asus has in Promoting Power Supplies. Haven't searched their entire Product line or Subsidiaries and relationships with other companies/partners, but here is their sorta limited option Calculator results.

Then there is the Extreme Calculator Light, (I know I shouldda paid the $1.99 for the Pro Calculator to get the Amperes figured in, but screw giving them a credit card account or messing with PayPal right now.) which shows this: (It's in two parts so ALL the fields can be seen.)

Second half. (Hmmm...just saw that I mistakenly put 120mm fans when I'll be using 140mm. I'm sure that'll make a difference. lol)

I'm OLD & stubborn I guess.

If I did anything, it would be buy a smaller PSU for the Pentium D and put that 750 watt Modular in the new build. But, since it's over 4 years old now I will NOT put that into a new build due to Capacitance Degradation. The new build will get a nice & fresh PSU.

I DO thank you for taking the TIME to show me the error of my thinking though. Really, I do.

Since 1986 everyone has told me my PSU's were too large for my systems. I can honestly say that they MAY have been correct and you MOST LIKELY "ARE" CORRECT.

But, I have NEVER EVER had a system FAIL due to the PSU or even have a PSU fail on me for that matter. And I have always run most my systems 24/7.


I'm getting GRIEF from my Programmer Buddy who does builds about my "Narcissistic PSU Theories" and NOT listening to him or the rest of the world in that department.

He thinks I'm "lacking" somewhere and trying to compensate for it with a WAY TOO LARGE PSU for it's intended purpose!! LOL

He's kidded me about NOT using cases with windows or open boxes since he figures that I would want to ADMIRE my HUGE underutilized, money burning, overpriced Power Supplies!! ROFL


Again, I REALLY do Thank You for taking the time to help Guide me in this build.


Sincerely,

David


P.S. Should I be concerned about these temps? (In particular the Video Card in Yellow Highlight.) My TV is the second monitor on this box and keeps flikering WHITE every few hours or so. I only have an Antec 500 watt Earthwatts PSU in it.

Hmmmm....the upload Captcha wanted me to type in "Head Case" to upload this pic. Is the Universe trying to tell me something or just the Interwebs?

LOL

 

[xXdragonbatXX]

I am using a XFX pro 550w PSU and it is overkill for a 7950 graphics card

 

[Sporinator]

I am using a XFX pro 550w PSU and it is overkill for a 7950 graphics card

I just looked the partial specs of your system in your sig:

Mushkin Enhanced Radioactive 8GB/Seagate Barracuda 500GB/ASUS M5A97 R2.0/AMD FX-6300/XFX Radeon HD 7950 3GB/XFX PRO550W/Windows 7 Home Premium

I see only 1 HDD, 1 Video card, and 8GBS of RAM. I'm asuming maybe only one DVD or Blu Ray drive as well.


You have 1/4 the RAM, 1/6 the number of HDD's, and 1/2 (Well, actually I'll only have like 1.3 7950 cards in mine.) the video cards I'll have. Plus I'll have Pcie x1 and Pcie 2.0 slots filled along with the Pcie 3.0 slot.

I'm glad you have PLENTY of power for your rig.

There is NO WAY that "I" would even "think" of a 500 watt PSU for this Workstation Build.

Thanks again though.

Sincerely,

David

 

[xXdragonbatXX]

I was just saying that 7950 was good on a 550w and pretty sure because I talk to my uncle,who has been a computer programmer/it for 20 years, that I won't have a problem when I add my 16gb more of ram, my ssd, and my other hdd. So gee sorry...

 

[Sleepingforest]

A 7950 can only draw 225W electrically. The two six-pin connectors can only supply 75W each and the PCIe slot can supply another 75W (this applies to add-on cards too--they draw 75W maxiumum). An HDD is going to consume at most 10W, again, according to real reviews. As I've said, if you do the actual P=IV calculation for fans, even exceptionally fast ones (2000RPM ones) run at only 0.2A and 12V; that's only 2.16W (size does not particularly matter). The Xeon series of CPUs, as seen in real reviews, only takes 150W max. RAM draws only 3 or so watts per DIMM (the amount of GB doesn't matter), according to Dell. Motherboards only consume 40W or so.

So you're looking at, with 6 HDDs (and a RAID card to go with it), 4 RAM sticks, a single 7950, a motherboard, 4 or so fans, and a CPU. That's 60W + 75W + 12W + 225W + 40W + 8W + 150W = 570W draw at the most (and the GPU idles most of the time unless you're gaming or running something off OpenCL). Even accounting for 15% extra room, that's only 650W needed.

 

[Torn Mind]

Hard drives make up an minor part of the power usage, with about 10 watts, give or take a little. Likewise with RAM and controller cards, which probably use even less power.

What is funny is that somehow a "calculator" is favored over approximations from empirical evidence.

It was nice that you did Industrial Wiring and I respect the knowledge you have regarding that particular subject, but that gives you little advantage of the rest of us when you leave that area of expertise and venture into the outside, as you were unable to avoid being ignorant of the power consumption of hard disks, RAM, or controller cards.

As far as I'm know, when it comes to electricity, it does not "wear out" what it passes through something. If it is within the allowed limits, the components that manage wattage (Schottky rectifiers or MOSFETS) will last indefinitely. It's the heat that eventually causes the PSU to fail eventually.

 

[Sporinator]

Hard drives make up an minor part of the power usage, with about 10 watts, give or take a little. Likewise with RAM and controller cards, which probably use even less power.

What is funny is that somehow a "calculator" is favored over approximations from empirical evidence.

It was nice that you did Industrial Wiring and I respect the knowledge you have regarding that particular subject, but that gives you little advantage of the rest of us when you leave that area of expertise and venture into the outside, as you were unable to avoid being ignorant of the power consumption of hard disks, RAM, or controller cards.

As far as I'm know, when it comes to electricity, it does not "wear out" what it passes through something. If it is within the allowed limits, the components that manage wattage (Schottky rectifiers or MOSFETS) will last indefinitely. It's the heat that eventually causes the PSU to fail eventually.

I never said anything about having any advantage over anyone. Here or elsewhere concerning electrical systems.

Your statement about Schottky rectifiers and MOSFETS lasting indefinitely is PURELY THEORETICAL. Sorry, but the Physics of Planet Earth put a Real World Damper on that theory.

Ok, I'll put it into sub laymen terms, what produces more heat....a 15 watt light bulb or a 500 watt Halogen Light Bulb?

What causes that heat? Is it Amplitude or Voltage that creates resistance in a circuit? Does electrical resistance create heat or no?

I are 90% of all solids on this planet in a frozen state or not?


If you REALLY think that the friction & heat caused/created by excited electrons in an electrical current have no degrading affect on the materials used in MOST Micro Circuitry have NO DEGRADING affects on the components in that circuitry you are dead wrong.

As far as my "ignorance" of all modern materials and their implementation in elcetronics , only ceramic and certain Bucky Ball based Carbon Fiber Composite Circuitry can last significantly longer than current production materials.

Begin your "Journey of Edification" here

I have already stated that "I" always use a MUCH larger PSU than what is actually needed in my builds. Always have and always will.

As said in an earlier post, good for you guys who use smaller and less expensive PSU's in your builds.

I even dug on myself already about it.

As far as not knowing what the power draw of each of my components are, I gauge my Power Supply needs off the Manufacture's Spec page for the PEAK wattage and amperage for the components I'll be using and then give myself 50 to 100% headroom.

I was an Audiophile back when I was a kid. So, here's an excerpt from this link.

"Generally a professionally designed sound system will use amplifiers that are substantially larger than the speakers' rating. That allows the speakers to be driven to capacity without a danger of the amplifiers being over driven. A 400W speaker will often be driven by an amplifier with a rating of 600W - 800W."

I know I'll hear Cries of Foul and not related.

So be it.

I find it interesting that I've already said that EVERYONE who has responded to my thread and brought up the PSU size is CORRECT and that it is ME who has the Large PSU Fetish.

As far as the PSU calculators go, I had NEVER used on before starting this new build. Never even knew they existed really. Yes, I am a Dinosaur who DOES live under a Rock.

I've just found it interesting that those calculators were all within 10 to 20% of what "I" would choose based on the MFG specs for my build components.

Oh well, enough of kicking this dead horse.

 

[Sporinator]

I'm OFFICIALLY THANKING everyone, especially mfenn and DSF, for offering their suggestions and guidance on this build of mine.


My build budget took an unexpected hit due to a serious illness in the family which will take me out of town here shortly.

So I placed my order this morning between Amazon and Newegg. It came to $2,424.06.

I deemed the two new monitors and batteries for my UPS's to be more important than a RAID card for now. So, as soon as I get the money up for it I'll be getting a RAID card with either a Flash Memory Backup or regular Battery Backup, a few more WD RE4 HDD's, and a Blu Ray Burner. (A little over $1,000.00 I'm figuring.)

Thanks again everyone.

Sincerely,

David

Here's the Parts list:

 

[mfenn]

What is funny is that somehow a "calculator" is favored over approximations from empirical evidence.

Agree 100%. The 7870 in this chart approximates what the OP's PC would draw with one HDD. Add 100W for a crazy 10 HDD array and you're taling 410W.

 

[mfenn]

What's done is done I suppose. That PSU is ridiculous overkill for your system (by a factor of ~2.5x), but you know that. The rest looks fine to me except that you are missing a case!

 

[mfenn]

Thank you VERY MUCH for taking the time to put that together for me. I'll get to going over it and seeing what I can do.

One question, shouldn't I really have a Battery Backup on the LSI RAID card? Or is the data still SAFE to run without one. I mean, the system IS hooked to the APC 1500 UPS, but if I get a BSOD for some damn reason, or the PSU bites the dust in the middle of a write, will the card still write the Cache without the Battery Backup if the system did a restart or shut down suddenly without having one?

I've never used a TRUE RAID card before due to the Price.

Thanks again.

Sincerely,

David

As long as the RAID card has power, then writes will be flushed to disk, no matter what the state that the OS is in. So, since your system is on a UPS, the only SPOF you have is the PSU. Adding the BBU to the RAID card would not help in a normal desktop because the drives themselves will lose power if the PSU fails! Having the power to flush writes doesn't do too much good if the drives aren't able to receive them.

 

[Sporinator]

Holy overkill PSU, Batman!


3) Since most of your storage is NAS and external drives, why such a huge box for this rig? You could very easily move to a smaller case. Well-designed mid tower cases are a lot easier to work in than many of them used to be.

I hope you don't take this the wrong way, because I only mention it to improve the feedback you get.


As far as heat it's really not an issue with a single video card and zero or modest overclocking. I have the Define R4 with a 3570K and a 7950. I could overclock if I wanted to without temp issue and my house is also around 73F ambient.

Those were TWO of the first four replies on 4/24/2013 to my thread that I started on that date.

Take a look at the DATE and what I bought.

What's done is done I suppose. That PSU is ridiculous overkill for your system (by a factor of ~2.5x), but you know that. The rest looks fine to me except that you are missing a case!

In the Wee Morn'n hours of the 25th I got a notice of a Promo Code for the OP Box. So, I pulled the trigger.

I couldn't very well start off bucking SOUND Advise now could I?


Oh..........wait.......I kinda started out and finished on that PSU Bucking Bronc didn't I? Lulz


Anyhow, I got the case first and here's order:

I know I should have counted that cost into the build, BUT I paid for that outta my PayPal Slush Fund and sort of forgot to post it earlier.

 

[Sporinator]

As long as the RAID card has power, then writes will be flushed to disk, no matter what the state that the OS is in. So, since your system is on a UPS, the only SPOF you have is the PSU. Adding the BBU to the RAID card would not help in a normal desktop because the drives themselves will lose power if the PSU fails! Having the power to flush writes doesn't do too much good if the drives aren't able to receive them.

ROFL

Thanks for JINXING ME!! LOL

I've already stated that I've never ever had a PSU fail on me.

When I wrote that post I figured it would come back to bite me in the butt.

Thanks again for sharing your VERY SOUND knowledge with me.

Sincerely,

David

P.S. Thanks for straightening me out on the RAID Card Battery Backup. It'll save me around $160.00.

 

[mfenn]

No problem, I hope your build goes well. Feel free to update this thread if you run into trouble!

 

[Sporinator]

No problem, I hope your build goes well. Feel free to update this thread if you run into trouble!

Thanks. I'll even update if....Er... Uhm....WHEN it DOES goes/GO well!! (Knocks on WOOD Desktop after typing.) LOL

I've only had like 3 builds in my entire life that went together like Lego's and just Purr'd from the Git-Go.

BTW, that was an AWESOME find on the AMD FirePro W700!! And the Rebate is still active.

I was literally "Twitching" here in my office chair when I saw it.

That was the exact VERY FIRST video card I looked at once I decided to go with the Xeon since I was getting the two Display Port Dell Monitors.

I liked that it was a Single slot card with 4GB of ram and REGULAR Display Port outputs. But, the $750 price kinda took it outta my mind. (I don't remember seeing that Promo a few weeks ago when I looked at it. Else-wise, it would have been in my OP list rather rather than the Sapphire Flex.)

Then you made that list with a price of $360 for it, my Mental Data Bank was sensing corruption, so that was the FIRST thing from your build I went to look at. But after reading the Promo details I couldn't pull it off. But I wanted to DESPERATELY!!!

I just couldn't cut $419.00 worth of parts from the build at the time of purchase to pay the $749.99 up front and then WAIT 45 days or so for the prepaid $375 VISA card to then go back and get the rest of the build.

I know, I know.....had I just gone with your list I'd have been FINE!! But, I only had EXACTLY $2,500 available to me now.

Your list would have ACTUALLY been $2559.00 up front. My situation change is at fault. You put together a fantastic list based on me having $4,000.00 available at the time of the OP and saying that I'd be comfortable only spending $2,500. So you figured I could afford the up front which makes sense.

If I could have used the FULL $4,000.00 that I planned on, it would have been great.




Thanks again.



I'll post up after I get the build done. It won't be until next Saturday the 10th that I have all the parts here. Unless they arrive early.

I'll have the Newegg stuff trickle in here today, tomorrow, and this Saturday.

But the MB, PSU, and Monitors will be coming in next week throughout the week from Amazon. (I cheeped out on the $54 shipping or I would've had them here this week too most likely. Needed that shipping money to get at least 1 set of replacement batteries for the APC 1500UA UPS that I'll be using on the New Box.)



TTFN (Ta Ta For Now.....for those who aren't familiar with TIGGER!!! lol )

 

[Sporinator]

It's even Cool as a Cucumber with the STOCK CPU cooler right now. (I won't run Prime on it until I have the RMA'd cooler back and installed though.)

Had to RMA the Dark Knight II. Bad threads on on of the standoffs and loose top fin on the heatsink.

Didn't want to wait on it to get the system setup so just used the stock heatsink for now.

Though, I did have an IRRITATING problem that was so minor that it was borderline ABSURD.

I even started a thread in the computer help section for it last night. LOL

My NEW Mantra now is "Jiggle the Cable!!" ROFL


Anyhow, just popping back in to say that ALL components are "Playing" VERY WELL together!!!


Thanks again to everyone for the help & suggestions!!


Sincerely,

David

TTFN

 

[mfenn]

Glad everything went well!

 

[Sporinator]

Glad everything went well!

Hmmm......3 days up & running and I just got a 3.3 volt RED warning popup from my Asus Monitoring program.

But when I opened up the monitor, this is what it showed:

So, I have NO CLUE as to whether it was an under voltage or an over voltage.

I did have a couple of VM's running and was in the Host OS when it popped up.

All I know is that my Platinum Plus WAY TOO BIG PSU had best NOT be flaking-out on the low end.

Lulz

 

[Sleepingforest]

It's actually totally possible, depending on how oversized it is. PSUs hate putting out small loads, and the meaning of small scales with the size of the PSU.

If you don't have lots of stuff going on, I bet that the PSU is having trouble. I'd suggest running the monitoring program while at idle and while putting on light, medium, and heavy loads just to see when the problem pops up exactly (rather than just pulling voltage around and praying).

 

[mfenn]

I honestly wouldn't worry about it. Voltage sensors on motherboards are infamously flaky. Most likely the sensor just wigged out for a bit (technical term). If you are really concerned, hook up a DMM that keeps track of max/min voltages to the 3.3V rail of your PSU.