Deceive, distort, break rules, create enemies

DaFinn

Diamond Member
Jan 24, 2002
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Abu Ghraib Means Triumphalism.
By Dr. Michael A. Weinstein, June 01, 2004.

As any psychiatrist or consumer of pornography will testify, the kinds of tortures (abasement rituals) documented in photographs at Abu Ghraib prison are familiar in sadistic fantasies and their representation in domination-and-bondage culture. They are deeply rooted in the psyche and readily accessible in the society, but they normally remain confined to imagination or bounded by consensual relations.

In order to have such scenarios be acted out with impunity on unwilling subjects, there must be a climate of permissiveness created by authority figures. Such permission can be granted through direct orders, condoning the behavior, or an attitude of dismissive negligence.

Whether or not the abasement rituals were a matter of explicit or suggestive policy, they occurred within an environment of dismissive negligence. Treatment of prisoners according to international standards was not a top priority of military leaders and bureaucratic defense intellectuals who conceived and have managed the occupation of Iraq. Regarding the consequences of their neglect of their own power and interests, the leaders were short-sighted.

The "scandal" of Abu Ghraib -- as it is now called most frequently in the press -- is one of the many failures of the occupation. Those failures -- most notably, the appearance of Sunni and Shi'a resistances, general insecurity and poor public services, and the lack of legitimacy of the governing authorities -- can be traced to a fundamental miscalculation of power.

During the Vietnam War, Senator J. William Fulbright famously said that the intervention was being conducted in the spirit of the "arrogance of power" -- the sense that because one believes that one has superior resources, one can override opposition and ignore criticism. Put in more neutral terms, the arrogance of power is based on an over-valuation of one's power -- an unrealistic expectation of what one can accomplish on one's own. Arrogance enters the picture as dismissiveness -- the leadership's will is indomitable, so all impediments and objections to it can be dismissed.

The sheer sense of triumphal power does not lead to attempts to exert that power unless there is a reason to do so -- it is possible to sit back and bask in the glories of one's potential supremacy and to act prudently to maintain it through deft interventions. In the case of the occupation of Iraq, the sense of triumphal power was converted into policy through a utopian ideology of American hegemony, explicitly and officially stated in the Bush administration's National Security Strategy in 2002.

The premise of that document is that the military advantage of the United States opens a window of opportunity for the country to eliminate all effective rivals to its power for several generations to come. That window will close unless the United States is willing to undertake pre-emptive wars against perceived threats to its dominance. America's high card is military might and it needs to be played. Might will insure that the rest of the world will have to acquiesce in whatever interventions are undertaken, and will guarantee their success. Iraq is the first test of the triumphalist doctrine and, perhaps, the last.

Along with the simple interest in state power, the triumphalist ideology proffers the utopian vision of a world of market democracies disciplined by American might -- a unilateralist version of globalization in which the United States plays the role of feudal lord, extracting tribute from the worldwide capitalist economy by performing the security function for it. Iraq is meant to be a made-to-order market democracy that will trigger movement toward the same paradigm throughout the Middle East.

Although the Iraq affair is primarily a test of a strategic doctrine rationalized by a utopian ideology, that doctrine could not have been applied in practice without the support of more immediate interests. The core of neo-conservative defense intellectuals who crafted the strategy and the war are a minority even in the security community. They have found allies in defense contractors, sectors of the Evangelical Christian community, segments of the petroleum industry and pro-Zionist interest groups. They have counted on generalized post-9/11 fear of terrorism -- a fear that has been persistently abetted by the administration -- to assure public acquiescence in their policies.

By dominating the policy process in the Bush administration, they have also gained support from Republican constituencies that are interested in preserving and expanding economic advantages that the administration has given them, and that they are afraid of losing under a Democratic president. The Iraq affair is a paradigm case of how a small minority can impose a policy by occupying the upper reaches of state bureaucracies and then gathering a broader coalition around it, even if that coalition is a distinct minority in the general public and that policy is unrealistic.

The over-valuation of power represented in the premise that the United States is a hegemon able to structure the world according to the perceived interests of its leaders without taking other powers into account leads to dismissiveness toward the political strength of opponents. If one believes oneself able to get what one wants on one's own, one is tempted to deceive, distort, break longstanding rules, reject compromise with potential allies, override opposition, create enemies, neglect consensus building, underestimate the unfavorable consequences of policies, and otherwise act with impunity. Dismissiveness passes over easily into demonization -- you're either with us or against us, and if you're against us, you're evil and unpatriotic. If, in addition, one believes that one has a monopoly on truth and goodness, one will listen only to oneself, and will ignore everyone else.

The problem for triumphalists is that interests affected adversely by their policies will not buy into the hegemonic scenario and will resist in whatever ways they can. Over-valuation of power inexorably causes backlashes that undermine visionary dreams and eventually results in loss of power in the world for the triumphalist state.

Along with triumphalism comes adventurism, in which ideological fantasy substitutes for policy based on a lucid assessment of the balance of power and the interests actuating it. The Iraq affair is a case of adventurist foreign policy -- ill-conceived, poorly planned, unsupported by world opinion, and, therefore, riddled with unpleasant surprises for its architects. When dream occludes reality, there is no way to adjust to adverse consequences but ad hoc tactical measures and abrupt reversals, such as bringing back the Ba'athists, bringing in the U.N., abandoning the Iraqi National Congress and leaving the Mehdi Army intact -- anything to patch up the leak and put out the fire temporarily, whatever the long-term consequences. Over-valuation of power breeds fantasy, which breeds adventurism, ending in ad hoc expedients that make the fantasy ever more distant from reality and generate more unpleasant surprises. That has been the story of the Iraq affair.

The abasement rituals at Abu Ghraib were most generally conditioned by the climate of impunity created by triumphalist strategy, ideology and rhetoric, which led, at least, to dismissive negligence and then cover-ups by authorities. The instigating cause of the practices appears to have been an ad hoc adjustment to policy failure -- importing the stress-and-duress regimen from Guantanamo to Abu Ghraib in order to extract intelligence from prisoners in the wake of rising resistance to the occupation in the Sunni Triangle in the summer of 2003. As can be expected from ad hoc adjustments, the stopgap measure led to a new problem -- the "scandal" of the trophy photographs and the behavior that they document, and the consequent delegitimation of the occupation.

General dismissiveness engendered a response to adversity that violated international conventions and gave at least suggestive permission for impunity at the cell-block level. There is a direct line from the over-valuation of power inscribed in the National Security Strategy to the impunity at Abu Ghraib.
 

Runner20

Senior member
May 31, 2004
478
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These people have one thing in mind: beat Bush in November. So they will try any way to throw mud at him.

There are 150,000 soldiers in Iraq. 7 of them did these horrible things. Higher then 7? Ok, I'll give you 20 then. Even if 20 soldiers did these things you cant overlook the fact that American soldiers are awesome at what they do. God Bless our servicemen and women.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Runner20
These people have one thing in mind: beat Bush in November. So they will try any way to throw mud at him.

There are 150,000 soldiers in Iraq. 7 of them did these horrible things. Higher then 7? Ok, I'll give you 20 then. Even if 20 soldiers did these things you cant overlook the fact that American soldiers are awesome at what they do. God Bless our servicemen and women.

And their superiors and those in the Pentagon and in the Bush administration who OK'd the Guantanamo Plan to be used at Abu Ghraib, against the Geneva Conventions.
 

AcidicFury

Golden Member
May 7, 2004
1,508
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The key thing, as conjur said, is that it goes against the Geneva Conventions. I don't want to hear any crap about how they're terrorists or anything, they're still covered under the all-binding treaty.
 

Runner20

Senior member
May 31, 2004
478
0
0
The Geneva conventions don't apply here. They apply for soldiers, not terrorists. Don't bring up the Geneva conventions.
 

sandorski

No Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
70,799
6,356
126
Originally posted by: Runner20
The Geneva conventions don't apply here. They apply for soldiers, not terrorists. Don't bring up the Geneva conventions.

Just because you say so doesn't make it so.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
It is interesting how WE define a belligerent to our objectives. We call him a terrorist. As if one must afford a uniform and have a recognized command structure and perhaps red uniforms with big wide white leather ammunition belts defining the wearer as a target.

Francis Marion was such a terrorist. An Atypical warrior utilizing the best of all war methodologies. That is what the folks are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan today. Using their best strategy in an attempt to thwart a major power. Much the same a Bin Laden did against the USSR and we supported this "Freedom Fighter" to the hilt. Today he is a terrorist because his sights are on us.

So we now say that the Geneva Accords apply only to sophisticated military personnel. OK! Let that be as it may. Let us not look upon the treatment of our captured personnel as heinous if it compares to our own actions against the 'terrorist' captives...

I think there ought to be an Earthaversal agreement regarding the treatment of human as well as other life forms whether in battle, peace or asleep.

To seek Peace is Patriotic. To defend our Peace is Patriotic. To disrupt Peace is now also Patriotic. The activity within the borders of a sovereign nation is for them to regulate... and for the UN (if a member) to decided what action, if any, is warranted and does not justify our unilateral intervention.
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
Originally posted by: Runner20
The Geneva conventions don't apply here. They apply for soldiers, not terrorists. Don't bring up the Geneva conventions.

70-90% were innocent according to US military sources.

What is worse is that the Abu Ghraib scandal lends credibility to what has been reported by those who have been released from Gitmo too.
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
Originally posted by: LunarRay
It is interesting how WE define a belligerent to our objectives. We call him a terrorist. As if one must afford a uniform and have a recognized command structure and perhaps red uniforms with big wide white leather ammunition belts defining the wearer as a target.

Francis Marion was such a terrorist. An Atypical warrior utilizing the best of all war methodologies. That is what the folks are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan today. Using their best strategy in an attempt to thwart a major power. Much the same a Bin Laden did against the USSR and we supported this "Freedom Fighter" to the hilt. Today he is a terrorist because his sights are on us.

So we now say that the Geneva Accords apply only to sophisticated military personnel. OK! Let that be as it may. Let us not look upon the treatment of our captured personnel as heinous if it compares to our own actions against the 'terrorist' captives...

I think there ought to be an Earthaversal agreement regarding the treatment of human as well as other life forms whether in battle, peace or asleep.

To seek Peace is Patriotic. To defend our Peace is Patriotic. To disrupt Peace is now also Patriotic. The activity within the borders of a sovereign nation is for them to regulate... and for the UN (if a member) to decided what action, if any, is warranted and does not justify our unilateral intervention.

I don't get how any sane individual can use the definition terrorist to describe those who are fighting an occupying force either.

Would someone please give me the definition of a terrorist?
 

chess9

Elite member
Apr 15, 2000
7,748
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Klixxer:

You are a terrorist if we say you are a terrorist. Who is going to constrain the Executive Branch in time of war? We are hoping the Supremes do it, but no one is betting the farm.

That's a nicely themed and written piece-a sort of neocon Manifest Destiny in the 21st Century.

-Robert
 

Klixxer

Diamond Member
Apr 7, 2004
6,149
0
0
Originally posted by: chess9
Klixxer:

You are a terrorist if we say you are a terrorist. Who is going to constrain the Executive Branch in time of war? We are hoping the Supremes do it, but no one is betting the farm.

That's a nicely themed and written piece-a sort of neocon Manifest Destiny in the 21st Century.

-Robert

Oh, ok then, let's hope i don't piss off the wrong people then. ;)
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,784
6,770
126
The Neocons need to stand trial before the world court. Arrogance and dismissiveness are the other face of deep psychological fear. These men and those who support them are among humanities sickest members. The desire to dominate springs from massive insecurity and repressed childhood trauma. Abusers grow up to abuse and the seek out power to do so.

That is why, when sanity rules, it is vital that we lay out in law, as LunarRay suggests, our highest ideals. The psychologically illness that Neocon suffer is present in almost all men to some degree. We need law and clear guidance for the day when we are tempted. When the psychotic dream weaver spins his ideology of strength and power all too many will fall. Nazi Germany happened in a very advanced country because the illness was there waiting for the piano player to play. Now it's our turn.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Klixxer
Originally posted by: LunarRay
It is interesting how WE define a belligerent to our objectives. We call him a terrorist. As if one must afford a uniform and have a recognized command structure and perhaps red uniforms with big wide white leather ammunition belts defining the wearer as a target.

Francis Marion was such a terrorist. An Atypical warrior utilizing the best of all war methodologies. That is what the folks are doing in Iraq and Afghanistan today. Using their best strategy in an attempt to thwart a major power. Much the same a Bin Laden did against the USSR and we supported this "Freedom Fighter" to the hilt. Today he is a terrorist because his sights are on us.

So we now say that the Geneva Accords apply only to sophisticated military personnel. OK! Let that be as it may. Let us not look upon the treatment of our captured personnel as heinous if it compares to our own actions against the 'terrorist' captives...

I think there ought to be an Earthaversal agreement regarding the treatment of human as well as other life forms whether in battle, peace or asleep.

To seek Peace is Patriotic. To defend our Peace is Patriotic. To disrupt Peace is now also Patriotic. The activity within the borders of a sovereign nation is for them to regulate... and for the UN (if a member) to decided what action, if any, is warranted and does not justify our unilateral intervention.

I don't get how any sane individual can use the definition terrorist to describe those who are fighting an occupying force either.

Would someone please give me the definition of a terrorist?

My meek vocabulary seems to produce a definition that includes the use of terror by the actioning party in the application of its strategy in a violence scenario... Sorta like dropping a MOAB in down town Baghdad. Or threat of nuclear device usage or even the threat of a conventional invasion... all these are intended to not only kill the objective but to terrorize into submission any objection to the agenda.

edit to correct a spelling error... :)
 

InfectedMushroom

Golden Member
Aug 15, 2001
1,064
0
0
Originally posted by: Runner20
The Geneva conventions don't apply here. They apply for soldiers, not terrorists. Don't bring up the Geneva conventions.

You must be a retarded little fvck who never read anything.
Here are some excerpts from the Geneva Convetion, read and see if you can understand:

Where in occupied territory an individual protected person is detained as a spy or saboteur, or as a person under definite suspicion of activity hostile to the security of the Occupying Power, such person shall, in those cases where absolute military security so requires, be regarded as having forfeited rights of communication under the present Convention.

In each case, such persons shall nevertheless be treated with humanity, and in case of trial, shall not be deprived of the rights of fair and regular trial prescribed by the present Convention. They shall also be granted the full rights and privileges of a protected person under the present Convention at the earliest date consistent with the security of the State or Occupying Power, as the case may be.


you can find the whole thing to read Here.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
0
Originally posted by: Runner20
The Geneva conventions don't apply here. They apply for soldiers, not terrorists. Don't bring up the Geneva conventions.

Look everyone! A new Bush-God fanboi troll!
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The Neocons need to stand trial before the world court. Arrogance and dismissiveness are the other face of deep psychological fear. These men and those who support them are among humanities sickest members. The desire to dominate springs from massive insecurity and repressed childhood trauma. Abusers grow up to abuse and the seek out power to do so.

That is why, when sanity rules, it is vital that we lay out in law, as LunarRay suggests, our highest ideals. The psychologically illness that Neocon suffer is present in almost all men to some degree. We need law and clear guidance for the day when we are tempted. When the psychotic dream weaver spins his ideology of strength and power all too many will fall. Nazi Germany happened in a very advanced country because the illness was there waiting for the piano player to play. Now it's our turn.

Well. Awhile back the 'reasonable powers' recognized the chaos that would ensue if super power nations were not controlled in some fashion from exercising their own Manifest Destiny. They created the UN and all members adopted, by treaty, that entity's charter as part of the their individual national law. Us included.
Failing the presence of a 'Gort' to keep the peace with out emotional or alliance disruptions we are forced to debate and negotiate as reasonable diplomats. Doing so with the full agreement and understanding that each member is a sovereign nation. Their borders are sacrosanct. Allowing each member to form and maintain what ever form of government, commerce and religion (among others) they choose or denigrate into. And that is the point, I think. The formation of government within a sovereign nation may not occur through democratic process. It may occur in many ways and each way possible is OK... maybe not to our way of thinking but, OK none the less. Member nations of the UN are subject to Sanctions of varying degree for Charter violations occurring within that nation's border... sorta the way to insure the basics for all of humanity. The sanctions imposed may not be quick nor fully remedy the situation and that is OK too. It is OK because the UN membership of the Security Counsel said so! And we and other members agreed that it was OK.
This then brings us to the indictment of the individuals responsible for the actions taken by the US and 'The Willing' in Iraq - the most recent invasion. That statement presupposes that the actions taken regarding the invasion and all subsequent loss of life and property are and were illegal. Illegal regardless of arguing the Article 51 'self defense' or the Resolution 1441 'inference' or even the post invasion absence of UN condemnation of the US and the 'Willing'. There has been posted in other threads the body of legal opinion regarding our actions in Iraq. Keep in mind that an indictment does not indicate guilt but, rather, that there is evidence that may indicate guilt. It ought to be for the World Court to determine this. To set precedent for future expeditions of this kind and reaffirm the sanctity of national borders and to obviate the self serving predatory nature of power.
 

Moonbeam

Elite Member
Nov 24, 1999
74,784
6,770
126
Originally posted by: LunarRay
Originally posted by: Moonbeam
The Neocons need to stand trial before the world court. Arrogance and dismissiveness are the other face of deep psychological fear. These men and those who support them are among humanities sickest members. The desire to dominate springs from massive insecurity and repressed childhood trauma. Abusers grow up to abuse and the seek out power to do so.

That is why, when sanity rules, it is vital that we lay out in law, as LunarRay suggests, our highest ideals. The psychologically illness that Neocon suffer is present in almost all men to some degree. We need law and clear guidance for the day when we are tempted. When the psychotic dream weaver spins his ideology of strength and power all too many will fall. Nazi Germany happened in a very advanced country because the illness was there waiting for the piano player to play. Now it's our turn.

Well. Awhile back the 'reasonable powers' recognized the chaos that would ensue if super power nations were not controlled in some fashion from exercising their own Manifest Destiny. They created the UN and all members adopted, by treaty, that entity's charter as part of the their individual national law. Us included.
Failing the presence of a 'Gort' to keep the peace with out emotional or alliance disruptions we are forced to debate and negotiate as reasonable diplomats. Doing so with the full agreement and understanding that each member is a sovereign nation. Their borders are sacrosanct. Allowing each member to form and maintain what ever form of government, commerce and religion (among others) they choose or denigrate into. And that is the point, I think. The formation of government within a sovereign nation may not occur through democratic process. It may occur in many ways and each way possible is OK... maybe not to our way of thinking but, OK none the less. Member nations of the UN are subject to Sanctions of varying degree for Charter violations occurring within that nation's border... sorta the way to insure the basics for all of humanity. The sanctions imposed may not be quick nor fully remedy the situation and that is OK too. It is OK because the UN membership of the Security Counsel said so! And we and other members agreed that it was OK.
This then brings us to the indictment of the individuals responsible for the actions taken by the US and 'The Willing' in Iraq - the most recent invasion. That statement presupposes that the actions taken regarding the invasion and all subsequent loss of life and property are and were illegal. Illegal regardless of arguing the Article 51 'self defense' or the Resolution 1441 'inference' or even the post invasion absence of UN condemnation of the US and the 'Willing'. There has been posted in other threads the body of legal opinion regarding our actions in Iraq. Keep in mind that an indictment does not indicate guilt but, rather, that there is evidence that may indicate guilt. It ought to be for the World Court to determine this. To set precedent for future expeditions of this kind and reaffirm the sanctity of national borders and to obviate the self serving predatory nature of power.

Like we preached for the last 60 years untill POS Bush took a huge dump on the nation.