Debt Limitapalooza 2023!

[fskimospy]

Oof the conservative takes I am reading that think Biden using the 14th/coin is going to be politically devastating for him are pretty out there. Same people thought the Rs would pay no political price for SCOTUS overturning Roe. More convinced than ever that the public at large is not going to give a fuck how a default is avoided just that it is.

This was always obvious - Biden will pay no political price. It’s like when republicans blockaded Merrick Garland. Nobody cared.

He should mint the coin and declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional and then dare republicans to stop him.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Honestly, it's just as likely that the Biden administration will have to mint a platinum coin.

I'm not saying a final minute deal can't be struck, but what you're suggesting isn't very realistic. The problem is McCarthy sold his own ass to the "Freedom" Caucus to get elected Speaker by the narrowest of margins, and that's all he fucken cares about. They do not care if the economy tanks, because they mostly don't care about the middle class and many are fixated on the dream of "starving the beast" (the federal government, except the military of course).

I guess there's a universe where if Sen. McConnell leans hard enough, you could find a handful of moderate House members to cross the aisle and pass a compromise bill. But there are almost no moderate House GOP members left; and outside of obstruction, Mitch doesn't really have powers of persuasion. You can make the case that if push came to shove, McCarthy cares more about being Speaker than averting a completely manufactured economic crisis. If he even tries to pass a reasonable bill (let's say Dems offer up some minor concessions), he knows Freedumb will kick his ass to the curb.

You might be right that the GQP may ultimately cave days or weeks after a damaging default has already occurred, but in light of the looming June 1st deadline, their list of wants is completely unreasonable when compared to prior clean debt limit increases. FFS look at the U.S. Chamber of Commerce claiming that the executive branch invoking the 14th Amendment is as bad as an actual default:

https://www.cnn.com/2023/05/19/economy/chamber-of-commerce-14th-amendment/index.html

The main axiom of American politics is the rich can feel no pain ever, and McCarthy leading the nation to a default will crush the stock market and thus make the rich bleed. So it's probably an empty threat.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Heres a crazy idea, lets repay some of the national debt. Aren't debts meant to be repaid, not accumulated? Yet old man Biden wants to pile on even more because of reckless spending.

Fuck off, you're just parroting right wing talking points. Reckless tax cuts for the rich and the corporations are how we keep blowing up the deficit every time one of you right wing nuts gets into the white house.

 

[Jaskalas]

This was always obvious - Biden will pay no political price. It’s like when republicans blockaded Merrick Garland. Nobody cared.

He should mint the coin and declare the debt ceiling unconstitutional and then dare republicans to stop him.

He should.
But then he said this.
Seems that, while there ARE solutions, the people at the top are clueless.

“I think we have the authority. The question is, could it be done and invoked in time that it could not – would not be appealed?” Biden asked, calling the question of whether an appeal could be solved before the default deadline “unresolved.”

Pressed by CNN’s Phil Mattingly to clarify whether he thought he could invoke the 14th Amendment as a serious and tangible option, the president made clear that maneuver would not be successful given the short window remaining.

“We have not come up with unilateral action that could succeed in a matter of two weeks or three weeks. That’s the issue. So it’s up to lawmakers. But my hope and intention is to resolve this problem,” he said.

 

[ivwshane]

Heres a crazy idea, lets repay some of the national debt. Aren't debts meant to be repaid, not accumulated? Yet old man Biden wants to pile on even more because of reckless spending.

The funniest thing about your post is that “paying our debts” literally requires raising the debt ceiling! Not raising the debt ceiling is not paying our debts!

 

[quikah]

All though you quoted the first part of the first sentence of section 4 of the 14th amendment, in one of your previous responses, you must not have read beyond that. Or, you don't understand what it is telling you.

Could you stop dancing around trying to play gotcha and speak plainly. I am of the opinion that the debt described in the 14th only refers to bonds or other monetary instruments used to borrow money. The 14th debt was referring to the civil war era bonds the US issued. They added the last sentence so they didn't have to pay out the confederate bonds as well when those states reentered the union.

Budget obligations do not count as debt. I may be wrong, but that is my opinion.

 

[fskimospy]

Could you stop dancing around trying to play gotcha and speak plainly. I am of the opinion that the debt described in the 14th only refers to bonds or other monetary instruments used to borrow money. The 14th debt was referring to the civil war era bonds the US issued. They added the last sentence so they didn't have to pay out the confederate bonds as well when those states reentered the union.

Budget obligations do not count as debt. I may be wrong, but that is my opinion.

If you are bound by law to pay someone $100 is that a debt? If so, budget obligations are debts.

 

[manly]

Yeah. Joe Biden has his pulse on the debt ceiling. He admits there isn't even enough time to utilize a unilateral action

"Pressed by CNN's Phil Mattingly to clarify whether he thought he could invoke the 14th Amendment as a serious and tangible option, the president made clear that maneuver would not be successful given the short window remaining.

"We have not come up with unilateral action that could succeed in a matter of two weeks or three weeks. That's the issue. So it's up to lawmakers. But my hope and intention is to resolve this problem," he said."

From the horses mouth.

This administration flunked this huge test. They have no idea what they're doing.

They not only didn't spend this time framing the narrative, they were clueless about how to message the 14th amendment/coin options because they hadn't even been planning properly. What a joke.

It's crazy that fskimospy thinks we should "Afghanistan" this shit and call the GQP's bluff. Biden's approval ratings tanked around AF withdrawal and have never recovered, despite most Muricans already having forgotten about AF. Although I don't agree with you that it's all about messaging, the messy AF withdrawal demonstrated that the administration was reactive instead of proactive and let a bad situation fester and turn worse. Only a successful last-moment military evac averted total disaster.

I credit Biden for getting the hell out of Dodge, and it's not his fault Trump and the Taliban dealt us a shitty hand. But we had months to prepare, and that time wasn't well spent. Now we've known all along what the House GOP conference would do with the debt limit. And although I don't doubt the administration has game-planned the fuck out of this for a while, it's sad how our team is seemingly discouraging most options except the worst one (some form of capitulation).

Maybe some of this is gamesmanship, but it doesn't feel like it. If they honestly can't mint a coin in 2 weeks because the lawyers don't have enough time to prepare, then yeah they done fucked up.

 

[Jaskalas]

Maybe some of this is gamesmanship, but it doesn't feel like it. If they honestly can't mint a coin in 2 weeks because the lawyers don't have enough time to prepare, then yeah they done fucked up.

Seems they refuse to take action without first passing it through a committee of naysayers and namby pambies who wouldn't dare do anything bold to help America. Sounds more like avoiding blame and responsibility and passing the buck to "lawyers" who wouldn't authorize unprecedented action to face off against unprecedented times. If that is what counts for leadership, this country is well and truly dead.

When Republicans attack, inaction is no substitute for action. The debt ceiling is a means of attack, and bypassing it is his duty as President.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Good idea, let’s raise taxes to pay our bills. We can start with the capitalist parasites that sponge off the workers.

This is outrageous! The lower classes should be required to shoulder more of the burden since they get nearly all the benes.

 

[IronWing]

This is outrageous! The lower classes should be required to shoulder more of the burden since they get nearly all the benes.

What a pussy ass bitch! Pay your taxes, parasite!

 

[FelixDeCat]

The funniest thing about your post is that “paying our debts” literally requires raising the debt ceiling! Not raising the debt ceiling is not paying our debts!

That is the same game we always played..

This time we need to match outgo with income and not borrow the rest.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Any thoughts about why Republicans didn’t cut any of that reckless spending when they controlled all branches of government in 2017?

I opposed that as well, and as usual, nobody listened.

I will always oppose raising the debt ceiling no matter who is in office.

 

[Pens1566]

I'd now put odds of default at higher than any of the other possible outcomes. GQP won't just give a clean increase (obviously), and they keep trying to squeeze more blood from the D's negotiation stone than is possible. Meanwhile, I feel that the admin is too timid to use the 14th/coin to get past it.

So, we do nothing and get hit with default.

 

[MrSquished]

We, or some of us should have known, the Republican party is horrific.. they aren't going to get better, just worse. So it's up to the other party to get things done, set up the framework, message it be consistent, and be ready to execute.

Biden failed at all of them from all the evidence we see. It's embarrassing this is the best Dems can do and this is also the best nominee the Dems can put forward in 2024.

Right now it seems the best hope is for somehow for six Republicans to switch their vote and that should never have been part of the plan. Obviously they really had no plan anyway.

 

[Amused]

Heres a crazy idea, lets repay some of the national debt. Aren't debts meant to be repaid, not accumulated? Yet old man Biden wants to pile on even more because of reckless spending.

Right on queue...

 

[brycejones]

This is outrageous! The lower classes should be required to shoulder more of the burden since they get nearly all the benes.

Actually it's the rich that get the benefit dumb ass.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

I'd now put odds of default at higher than any of the other possible outcomes. GQP won't just give a clean increase (obviously), and they keep trying to squeeze more blood from the D's negotiation stone than is possible. Meanwhile, I feel that the admin is too timid to use the 14th/coin to get past it.

So, we do nothing and get hit with default.

I don't see it. If 2020 showed us anything the stock market will be propped up at all possible costs, and a US default would crush the stock market.

 

[fskimospy]

It's crazy that fskimospy thinks we should "Afghanistan" this shit and call the GQP's bluff. Biden's approval ratings tanked around AF withdrawal and have never recovered, despite most Muricans already having forgotten about AF. Although I don't agree with you that it's all about messaging, the messy AF withdrawal demonstrated that the administration was reactive instead of proactive and let a bad situation fester and turn worse. Only a successful last-moment military evac averted total disaster.

I credit Biden for getting the hell out of Dodge, and it's not his fault Trump and the Taliban dealt us a shitty hand. But we had months to prepare, and that time wasn't well spent. Now we've known all along what the House GOP conference would do with the debt limit. And although I don't doubt the administration has game-planned the fuck out of this for a while, it's sad how our team is seemingly discouraging most options except the worst one (some form of capitulation).

Maybe some of this is gamesmanship, but it doesn't feel like it. If they honestly can't mint a coin in 2 weeks because the lawyers don't have enough time to prepare, then yeah they done fucked up.

It’s not crazy, it’s just the right thing to do.

If you keep giving in to debt ceiling extortion they will keep doing it, and doing it more. They will eventually come up with a demand Democrats won’t meet and then we will default anyway. Since default is inevitable, might as well do it before surrendering on multiple policy fronts.

 

[fskimospy]

I opposed that as well, and as usual, nobody listened.

I will always oppose raising the debt ceiling no matter who is in office.

Great, so no reason to vote for republicans then.

Did you think this through?

 

[MrSquished]

It’s not crazy, it’s just the right thing to do.

If you keep giving in to debt ceiling extortion they will keep doing it, and doing it more. They will eventually come up with a demand Democrats won’t meet and then we will default anyway. Since default is inevitable, might as well do it before surrendering on multiple policy fronts.

So you have changed your stance from Biden should have ended the debt ceiling in Congress's hands for good using one of the two tools potentially at his disposal, and now doing the right thing is to take the hit by letting us default. Interesting adjustment.

Did you reach that change in position because the Biden administration fumbled this so damn bad?

 

[ivwshane]

That is the same game we always played..

This time we need to match outgo with income and not borrow the rest.

So then you now say we shouldn’t pay our debts?

Maybe come up with a coherent position before posting.

 

[NWRMidnight]

Could you stop dancing around trying to play gotcha and speak plainly. I am of the opinion that the debt described in the 14th only refers to bonds or other monetary instruments used to borrow money. The 14th debt was referring to the civil war era bonds the US issued. They added the last sentence so they didn't have to pay out the confederate bonds as well when those states reentered the union.

Budget obligations do not count as debt. I may be wrong, but that is my opinion.

Wait, what you are saying what is the US constitution only applied to that period of time, and doesn't apply to debt beyond that period? Are you a fucking idiot?

If your budget at home includes expenditures beyond what you take in (planned or unplanned), it turns into debt, correct? Wouldn't the same hold true for the government budget, or do you use common core math, where somehow, when your expenditures go beyond what you take in, it doesn't turn into debt, but just disappears?

 

[NWRMidnight]

I don't see it. If 2020 showed us anything the stock market will be propped up at all possible costs, and a US default would crush the stock market.

The stock market was propped up by the Feds, not congress, the same feds who are currently raising interest rates, but started dropping them to the floor in 2019, before 2020. It didn't start in 2020, it started in 2019 to a tune of nearly 1 trillion the last half of 2019, along other measures to keep the economy artificially inflated in hopes to prevent a recession.. it failed.. it was announced we went into a recession February 2020, before COVID. From 2020 thru 2021, the feds dumbed another 3 Trillion into the stock market because of COVID which primarily benefited the rich.

Not disputing what you are saying about they (Congress) won't let us default on our debt because of what it would do to the stock market, just clarifying some facts.

 

[zinfamous]

This is outrageous! The lower classes should be required to shoulder more of the burden since they get nearly all the benes.

that's a fucking lie.