• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Debt ceiling brawl threatens economy, consumers

Washington is gearing up for a battle over how many trillions the federal government can borrow to pay its bills, and it's shaping up to be an even bigger brawl than the one just resolved over funding the government for the next six months.

While investors viewed last week's budget brinksmanship as a minor event, they are beginning to grow concerned that many lawmakers and ordinary Americans, fail to grasp the implications of even suggesting the United States would default on its debt obligations.

What is a political football to Congress could end up flattening the economy and hurting consumers by lowering the nation's pristine credit rating and sending interest rates sharply higher.

The Treasury is warning it will reach its $14.3 trillion limit on borrowing, known as the debt ceiling, in early May. Instead of a straight up-or-down vote on raising the cap, Republicans are threatening to attach policy measures on issues such as abortion funding and environmental regulation. Such "riders" were the main sticking point's in last week's budget showdown.
Anything that threatens to derail or delay the process of raising the debt ceiling is a red flag for markets. The longer it takes and the deeper the divide in Washington, the more markets will worry that the United States, the world's largest debtor nation, will default on its debt obligations with economy-rattling consequences.

On Saturday, House Speaker John Boehner told reporters that President Barack Obama had asked him for a "clean bill" on raising the debt ceiling.

"Well, guess what, Mr. President, not a chance you're going to get a clean bill," said Boehner. "And I can just tell you this. There will not be an increase in the debt limit without something really, really big attached to it."

Negotiations over lifting the debt ceiling will also be complicated by the debate over bigger spending cuts for the upcoming fiscal year. The White House is expected to offer up its plan Wednesday to cut the $1.5 trillion federal deficit.

Raising the debt ceiling will require the approval of at least some Republicans in both the House and Senate. As the GOP plots strategy, its hard-line stand has strong voter backing.

According to a recent NBC/Wall Street Journal poll, only 16 percent of voters said Congress should raise the debt ceiling, while some 46 percent said they were opposed. When told that would mean the U.S. could default on its debt, 32 percent supported raising the limit. But 62 percent said they opposed lifting the cap even if it meant the Treasury would not making good on its debt payments.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/42536397/

There's more at the link. Boehner's big talk is worrisome. Those poll numbers are more worrisome. That's why I post this. Let's all be aware of what playing around with the debt ceiling means.
 
We won't default.

But the debt ceiling may have a powerful influence on the next budget. By limiting the debt ceiling you limited the budget.

Fern
 
It's actually sick that the nation has come to this point that now not raising the debt ceiling again (has been done literally dozens of times in past several decades) is considered the problem. That is not the problem, it is a symptom. The government spends almost twice what it brings in. THAT is the problem, the ceiling is a symptom.
 
It's actually sick that the nation has come to this point that now not raising the debt ceiling again (has been done literally dozens of times in past several decades) is considered the problem. That is not the problem, it is a symptom. The government spends almost twice what it brings in. THAT is the problem, the ceiling is a symptom.
This, oh this!
 
The time to be sick of this was 5 years ago when the government wasn't doing its job regulating the financial system, or running surpluses to save up for rainy day.
 
We won't default.

But the debt ceiling may have a powerful influence on the next budget. By limiting the debt ceiling you limited the budget.

Fern
I think you have that a bit reversed. The GOP was so proud of itself for making inconsequential budget cuts and passing the budget. They have therefore already decided that that is the amount of money that needs to be spent. Not raising the debt ceiling after making such a declaration is equivalent to admitting that the budget was impossible and that they were completely wrong to pass it in the first place. The money is already spoken for - it's just a matter of whether or not the government will pay its bills.
 
It's actually sick that the nation has come to this point that now not raising the debt ceiling again (has been done literally dozens of times in past several decades) is considered the problem. That is not the problem, it is a symptom. The government spends almost twice what it brings in. THAT is the problem, the ceiling is a symptom.


You should turn your argument on its head:

The government only brings in half of what it spends.

Despite being the wealthiest country in the world the US has always had some of the lowest income taxes in the developed world and now after decades of neglect everything from our roads to our electrical grid is ready to fall apart. You buy cheap, you get cheap and sometimes that means you pay through the nose somewhere down the road. You insist on lower taxes and insist on making the next generation pay your way and then bitch about having to pay the price when it all comes crashing down.
 
Nothing worrisome about Boehner's "big talk". Spending must be cut. If riders have to be attached to every bill coming out of Congress to achieve that, so be it. Somebody has to take on a position of responsibility.

Who said the following?

"Raising the debt limit is the last thing we should do. It would weaken the country. It would hurt the economy." He said, "If my Republican friends believe that increasing our debt by almost $800 billion today and more than three trillion over the last five years is the right thing to do, they should be up front about it. They should explain why they think more debt is good for the economy. How can the Republican majority in this Congress explain to their constituents that trillions of dollars in new debt is good for our economy? How can they explain that they think it's fair to force our children, our grandchildren, our great-grandchildren to finance this debt through higher taxes? That's what it will have to be. Why is it right to increase our nation's dependence on foreign credit?"

That was Harry Reid in 2006. This is how totally fucked up DC is.
 
Last edited:
Nothing worrisome about Boehner's "big talk". Spending must be cut. If riders have to be attached to every bill coming out of Congress to achieve that, so be it. Somebody has to take on a position of responsibility.


After all these decades of refusing to take responsibility, amping up the rhetoric, and drawing lines in the sand you suddenly expect people to act like adults? Good luck.
 
This is what happens when HALF of GDP is govt borrowing and spending.
http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/#usgs302a

When 2/3 of people depend on Govt to eat. Not just direct checks and contractors either... how many walmarts are open to cash SS and UE checks? How many small Business set up around military bases?

Our whole economy has moved offshore and Govt is the only thing preventing us from recognizing our fail of non production.

But you WILL recognize one day.
 
Last edited:
Let Boehner default on the national debt.

Obama will be blamed for it. This is a great poker strategy by the GOP.


I think you have that a bit reversed. The GOP was so proud of itself for making inconsequential budget cuts and passing the budget. They have therefore already decided that that is the amount of money that needs to be spent. Not raising the debt ceiling after making such a declaration is equivalent to admitting that the budget was impossible and that they were completely wrong to pass it in the first place. The money is already spoken for - it's just a matter of whether or not the government will pay its bills.

Versus having no ceiling and O+Congress =

751animated-obama-money.gif
 
It's actually sick that the nation has come to this point that now not raising the debt ceiling again (has been done literally dozens of times in past several decades) is considered the problem. That is not the problem, it is a symptom. The government spends almost twice what it brings in. THAT is the problem, the ceiling is a symptom.

Yes, corruption of the system by the rich, so that the rich are undertaxed (skyrocketing their share of the society's income and wealth), and massive overspending on the corrupted industries, directly (e.g., defense) and indirectly (e.g., Wall Street being allowed to be a leech or, a la Matt Taibbi, a 'giant vampire squid wrapped around the face of America' - those are the problems and the rest are symptoms. Cutting the relatively cheap items that benefit the public is bad. The right simply wants to win a class war.
 
Last edited:
Obama should veto any non-clean bill. The debt ceiling should be determined by the free markets, not Boehner.

What do you mean free markets? The super wealthy want us in as much debt as possible. it's tax free income to them and enslaves us working people.

They would have us paying 100% of our tax dollars to service them if they could.

If interest rate changes to a more normal 6% we will pay 50% right now.

DEBT DOES YOU NO FAVORS ANYONE WHO THINKS SO IS A GOD DAMN FOOL.
 
Last edited:
Yes, corruption of the system by the rich, so that the rich are undertaxes (skyrocketing their share of the society's income and wealth), and massive overspending on the corrupted industries, directly (e.g., defense) and indirectly (e.g., Wall Street being allowed to be a leech or, a la Matt Taibbi, a 'giant vampire squid wrapped around the face of America' - those are the problems and the rest are symptoms. Cutting the relatively cheap items that benefit the public is bad. The right simply wants to win a class war.

You look at those 9000 earmarks on the Stimulus Bill and see how many of those things are cheap items that benefit the public.
 
You look at those 9000 earmarks on the Stimulus Bill and see how many of those things are cheap items that benefit the public.

Earmarks are a mix of good and terrible. But they total just under $16 billion a year, in a budget over three trillion dollars, with defense alone nearly $700 billion and the extension of tax cuts for the rich $70 billion per year.
 
Back
Top