Debt Ceiling 2014: GOP already painting themselves into a corner.

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theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
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No matter what you think, there would have been no default. There was plenty of tax revenue to pay our bills, without raising the debt ceiling. The debt ceiling continues to be raised to pay for the ever increasing entitlements and for all these pork projects.

What do you consider bills? If a law that Congress passed says, the government shall pay someone a certain amount for some services, and the government doesn't pay it, it's in default on those obligations.
Saying as long as the government pays interest on the treasuries it's not in default is like saying a corporation that pays interest on its bonds but not its payroll is not in default, or if an individual pays their credit card bill but not their rent is not in default. You either pay all your legal obligations, or you don't. There is no in between.
 

Jhhnn

IN MEMORIAM
Nov 11, 1999
62,365
14,686
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No matter what you think the money was spent congress passed the budget or continuing CR. The debt limit is just how we cover the expenses already incurred.

Absolutely correct & well said.

OTOH, it's become a hostage situation the last few years and an opportunity for posturing & pandering at the same time. It was always the latter, rarely the former.

Extortion seems to have backfired on the perps, which is as it should be.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
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We have a president who doesn't know how to get along with the other kids and play nice. We got a president with a head full of bad ideas, making a mockery of America, and we have 535 members of congress. There is going to be pushback. The best thing this president could do for this country is to admit he is a poor leader and step down. He's one dude wielding way too much power and narcissism (read- acts like he's king) and people can't understand how congress has been rendered helpless? I get it. It's like a CEO of a large corporation getting called to a come to Jesus meeting to discuss poor performance and him saying, "It's not me....nope....everyone of the employees is inferior". It doesn't wash and never will with me. Fucking community organizer....like sending in a little girl to do the job of several men. Unbelievable!
 
Jan 25, 2011
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We have a president who doesn't know how to get along with the other kids and play nice. We got a president with a head full of bad ideas, making a mockery of America, and we have 535 members of congress. There is going to be pushback. The best thing this president could do for this country is to admit he is a poor leader and step down. He's one dude wielding way too much power and narcissism (read- acts like he's king) and people can't understand how congress has been rendered helpless? I get it. It's like a CEO of a large corporation getting called to a come to Jesus meeting to discuss poor performance and him saying, "It's not me....nope....everyone of the employees is inferior". It doesn't wash and never will with me. Fucking community organizer....like sending in a little girl to do the job of several men. Unbelievable!

You owe me thirty seconds of my life back for making me read that absolute nonsense.
 

BUnit1701

Senior member
May 1, 2013
853
1
0
Roll over on the last debt ceiling increase, roll over on the budget, the Repubecans will roll over this time too. If we want to see change, some of these incumbents will need to be staying home in 2015.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
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Roll over on the last debt ceiling increase, roll over on the budget, the Repubecans will roll over this time too. If we want to see change, some of these incumbents will need to be staying home in 2015.

They will roll over, the only question is how much damage they'll do to their party brand before doing it.

They are still trying to figure out what they want:
http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-mon...ave-little-time-to-form-debt-ceiling-strategy
Republican leaders have yet to figure out what they want to get out of the debt limit fight, just weeks before risking a default.

GOP lawmakers of all stripes have been adamant that Democrats will have to give something in exchange for a boost to the $16.7 trillion borrowing cap. But exactly what is still a big question.
Good luck explaining to people that you are risking US default over "something" you don't even know what it is.
 

rudeguy

Lifer
Dec 27, 2001
47,351
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at what point do we say we have borrowed so much that we can't pay it back?

At what point do we stop borrowing until we can make a plan to pay it all back?

At what point does the rest of the world realize that we won't be able to pay all of it back?
 

Siddhartha

Lifer
Oct 17, 1999
12,505
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http://www.politico.com/blogs/polit...forecast-battle-over-debt-ceiling-181901.html
The battle lines are being drawn are the same as for the last debt ceiling increase fight, on which the GOP got decisively whipped.
White House:

GOP:


Again, the Republicans want to get "something" out of a debt ceiling fight. Of course now it's election year, and it's in the Republicans' political interest to put this behind them as quickly as possible, and in Obama's political interest for it to drag out so that the GOP is made to look like idiots who never learn, and move on from Obamacare issues. But the problem for Republicans is they can't act in their party's long term interest, because there are primaries coming up, they are under the gun. So again, they are painting themselves into a corner, except in an election year.

I have a friendly two beer bet that the GOP would shut the Federal government down again this year. I figured that I would lose the bet because the Republicans can't be stupid enough to go down that path again especially in an election year. Maybe they want to lose even more House seats in this year's election.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
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at what point do we say we have borrowed so much that we can't pay it back?
You can say whatever you want whenever you want.
At what point do we stop borrowing until we can make a plan to pay it all back?
At the point when we pass spending bills, not debt ceiling increases.
At what point does the rest of the world realize that we won't be able to pay all of it back?
That's up to them, but I would guess never, since we borrow in our own currency. The only way we won't be able to pay our bills is if we choose not to by not raising the debt ceiling.
 
Feb 4, 2009
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I have a friendly two beer bet that the GOP would shut the Federal government down again this year. I figured that I would lose the bet because the Republicans can't be stupid enough to go down that path again especially in an election year. Maybe they want to lose even more House seats in this year's election.

What City do live in/near. I might take you up on this bet.
 

bshole

Diamond Member
Mar 12, 2013
8,315
1,215
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The House should fund everything except Obamacare. Let Harry Reid have another hissy fit and shut down the government again and watch Obama make another ass out of himself by making life as hard as possible for veterans and park visitors. Funny shit!

So you WANT veterans to suffer for your own amusement? I have no doubt that your sentiments are consistent with the conservative base that these politicians are pandering to. I just wish that the right wing politicians themselves (not just their constituents) would come out and say that they enjoy watching veterans suffer.
 

BUnit1701

Senior member
May 1, 2013
853
1
0
They will roll over, the only question is how much damage they'll do to their party brand before doing it.

They are still trying to figure out what they want:
http://thehill.com/blogs/on-the-mon...ave-little-time-to-form-debt-ceiling-strategy

Good luck explaining to people that you are risking US default over "something" you don't even know what it is.

The fight is lost, if they were going to fight, it should have been the budget, but they caved on that and undid the sequester, the only cuts we've gotten in decades! The Republicans are NOT a conservative party, they are the party of 'Big Government, as long as we are in charge'.
 

theeedude

Lifer
Feb 5, 2006
35,787
6,197
126
www.politico.com/story/2014/01/debt-ceiling-republicans-102759.html?hp=t1_s

House Republicans are getting ready to surrender: There will be no serious fight over the debt limit.
The most senior figures in the House Republican Conference are privately acknowledging that they will almost certainly have to pass what’s called a clean debt ceiling increase in the next few months, abandoning the central fight that has defined their three-year majority.
Looks like they are evolving.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
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He's one dude wielding way too much power and narcissism (read- acts like he's king) and people can't understand how congress has been rendered helpless?
Ah. I see. ...So when George Dubya said, "you're either with us or you're against us", that was an entirely sane and reasonable position to take as head of a supposedly democratically elected government?

Unbelievable!
Couldn't have put it better myself!
 
Apr 27, 2012
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So you WANT veterans to suffer for your own amusement? I have no doubt that your sentiments are consistent with the conservative base that these politicians are pandering to. I just wish that the right wing politicians themselves (not just their constituents) would come out and say that they enjoy watching veterans suffer.

It was obama that made the veterans suffer. He closed down a WWII memorial that was always open. He did it to make them suffer.
 

FaaR

Golden Member
Dec 28, 2007
1,056
412
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at what point do we say we have borrowed so much that we can't pay it back?
You already have. There's no reasonable way you ever could pay back the federal debt, nor is there any particular need or desire to do so, as the debt is in US dollars; it will naturally deprecate due to inflation.

At what point do we stop borrowing until we can make a plan to pay it all back?
Well, you don't, unless you want to (perhaps permanently) wreck your economy and position as global #1 economic power.

At what point does the rest of the world realize that we won't be able to pay all of it back?
The world already knows this, but it doesn't matter as the world relies on the dollar as a global trade currency. If that ever changes THEN you need to worr, but it's not in anyone's interest to do that as it would hurt everybody else just as much as you guys.

The GOP acts (in public, when there's a (D) prez in the white house; under bush the GOP raised debt ceiling like seven times without even batting an eyelash) as if the building they live in is catastrophically on fire and something has to be done NOW!!! or else all will be lost. However that's not the case, there's no pressing need to do anything right now when the debt ceiling is about to hit.

Especially not doing something irresponsibly drastic like blowing out the (non-existant) fire with this box of dynamite sticks here. That'd just do even more damage to your building, and kill some people in the process.

Sure, something should be done about the defecit, but not by defaulting the US gov't, which would have severe knock-on effects internationally as well as domestically (tens of thousands of gov't employees first going without pay and then getting laid off in droves, not being able to pay bills, home mortgages and getting evicted and so on, car loans, schooling for their kids, insurance and medical expenses, clothes, FOOD etc.) Banks and other credit lenders would take it on the chin when huge numbers of people start defaulting on their personal debts. Businesses relying on revenue from these people would take a hit as well, having to let go of more people, leading to more loss of income, loss of tax revenue meaning less money for roads, schools, hospitals and so on, and a stalling of the economy of the nation as a whole.

Meanwhile, due to the US' inability to pay its loans, credit ratings would drop globally and interest rates on US loans would soar, further crippling your already damaged economy and so on.

But of course, this is nothing a couple more wars lasting another decade couldn't solve. If I may be so bold as to make a suggestion, perhaps against Iran...? I know relations are somewhat thawing right now, but those brown people are so SCARY aren't they! You don't know what terrorism they might be hiding in their turbans an shit. What worked for the GOP in the past COULD work again, you just need to doctor some reports like last time and then stir the public sentiment over high heat via your inofficial mouthpiece multinational media conglomerates and then everything's set. Oh, and issue some yellow terror warning alerts and bin laden videos, that worked so well under bush. (Except, he's dead now. Well, not bush of course...)
 
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LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
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One may, if they choose, employ Economic Theory to address issues in the US today... They will fail! We live in a dynamic reality... it is not static. We can't even agree on who causes what by what means... not even closing down of some park or what ever... How can one hope to deal with that condition using some theoretical matrix that can't possibly include the mind set of the day.

The first best use of debt financing is to get an economy moving thus employing thus paying back the debt over time. Paying the budgetary overdraft found in the debt is a no brainer... We borrow the money to fund the objectives... war or butter... it don't matter.

If I had a grasp of Economics I'd choke on the notion of reducing Governmental spending to balance the budget while in a recession.... You balance and go to surplus based on some simple math.... it seems to me... More taxpayers implies more tax revenue.... But, alas... apparently I don't have that grasp.
 

compuwiz1

Admin Emeritus Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
27,112
930
126
One may, if they choose, employ Economic Theory to address issues in the US today... They will fail! We live in a dynamic reality... it is not static. We can't even agree on who causes what by what means... not even closing down of some park or what ever... How can one hope to deal with that condition using some theoretical matrix that can't possibly include the mind set of the day.

The first best use of debt financing is to get an economy moving thus employing thus paying back the debt over time. Paying the budgetary overdraft found in the debt is a no brainer... We borrow the money to fund the objectives... war or butter... it don't matter.

If I had a grasp of Economics I'd choke on the notion of reducing Governmental spending to balance the budget while in a recession.... You balance and go to surplus based on some simple math.... it seems to me... More taxpayers implies more tax revenue.... But, alas... apparently I don't have that grasp.

We already did what you are talking about with bailouts, stimulus and even the cash for clunkers program, to stimulate the auto industry. The economy is still sluggish. You don't introduce a socialist medical care program while in a recession either. Any recovery gained is going to be quickly lost because of Obamacare and the jobs lost because of it.
 

LunarRay

Diamond Member
Mar 2, 2003
9,993
1
76
We already did what you are talking about with bailouts, stimulus and even the cash for clunkers program, to stimulate the auto industry. The economy is still sluggish. You don't introduce a socialist medical care program while in a recession either. Any recovery gained is going to be quickly lost because of Obamacare and the jobs lost because of it.

The stimulus was not enough. A trillion or so more in infrastructure with high velocity would do the trick.
Romney wouldn't have let 'Detroit' fail either... even if he alluded to that prospect.

I don't agree that the ACT will result in a net job loss. IF you're listening to the House GOP opinion on the matter I'd suggest looking at the bits they use and how it is not relevant or that they point to only one side of the equation and neglect the other.... like gains in Health care and Insurance providers from the same study that suggested a minor job loss or minimal job loss... The ACT should prove to be a very positive law on a few fronts and I see no reason why the Right has latched on to it other than a political agenda for some short term gains and a hope for a short term memory. Voting some 30 or more times to repeal the law when they know it won't pass the Senate let alone the President is pure political gobbledygook.

I'm not in favor of taxing the rich to fund wars or baby care.... I'm in favor of creating full employment and see what that does first. That must be the objective above all else. However, there is a fair tax reality.... I'm not sure what that might mean to the various income levels when Full employment is achieved...

Bottom line:

When Congress and the President incur debt for what ever reason it must be paid without strings.