<< cross between Ross Perot and a Keebler Elf with the sharp wit of Dan Quayle >>
LOL. You have a point. I stand corrected. I knew I'd regret saying that. Must have been a brain fart.
<< cross between Ross Perot and a Keebler Elf with the sharp wit of Dan Quayle >>
LOL. You have a point. I stand corrected. I knew I'd regret saying that. Must have been a brain fart.
<< Anybody else that thinks he'd be a good president is just as delusional >>
Red,
What does it take to be a good president? A president basically churns through reports and paperwork, leads meetings, delivers addresses to the public every once in a while, holds press conferences (though as we've seen a president can abort press conferences for nearly a year during a scandal, right Bill?, that did us a great service as a nation). A president vetos or signs bills, travels abroad to address foreign countries, etc.
Bascially the ability to perform these duties can't be judged by these "debates". That's another reason they suck. You really need to look at their voting records, academic credentials and historical stances on issues.
Anyway, factoring all that in I feel Bush would make as good a president as Gore. However, that's not saying a whole hell of a lot as neither represent the "creme del la crem".
Red,
What does it take to be a good president? A president basically churns through reports and paperwork, leads meetings, delivers addresses to the public every once in a while, holds press conferences (though as we've seen a president can abort press conferences for nearly a year during a scandal, right Bill?, that did us a great service as a nation). A president vetos or signs bills, travels abroad to address foreign countries, etc.
Bascially the ability to perform these duties can't be judged by these "debates". That's another reason they suck. You really need to look at their voting records, academic credentials and historical stances on issues.
Anyway, factoring all that in I feel Bush would make as good a president as Gore. However, that's not saying a whole hell of a lot as neither represent the "creme del la crem".
Fettesbabe is right, everyone in the know, knows that the death penalty is not a deterant, because either murders are crimes of passion, as in compulsive/impulsive acts & people arn't thinking straight or they are calculated pre-meditated acts where people think they just wont get court.
If there's no doubt what so ever, I've got nothing against the deat hpenalty, but 'beyond reasonable doubt' just isnt good enough - I can think of 4 cases, just off the top of my head of people who were executed & later found innocent.
If there's no doubt what so ever, I've got nothing against the deat hpenalty, but 'beyond reasonable doubt' just isnt good enough - I can think of 4 cases, just off the top of my head of people who were executed & later found innocent.
JB:
The debates are bad enough. Please spare me the academic credentials! You wouldn't want to see a grown man cry, would you?
The debates are bad enough. Please spare me the academic credentials! You wouldn't want to see a grown man cry, would you?
That smirk of Bush's is a killer. I don't how anyone can think he's presidential material.
I can't believe how shallow you are. Gore has a track record full of lies and scandals, he's still presidential material. Bush's smirk rubs you the wrong, and he's not.
Wonderful reasoning you're exercising there.
I can't believe how shallow you are. Gore has a track record full of lies and scandals, he's still presidential material. Bush's smirk rubs you the wrong, and he's not.
Wonderful reasoning you're exercising there.
Gore's the incumbent (with a booming economy even!). Gore's the "experienced" one. Gore is Bill Clinton's protege. Gore has the longer record. Gore's was supposed to be the top-notch debater. Yet here we sit with Bush and Gore dead even with Bush winning the last debate.
enginer9: OK, let's look at the record: look at bushlite's environmental record, and look at Gore's environmental record. Look at Gore's record in the military, and look at bushlite's record. Look at the economy of the country, vs the economy of Texas. Look at how many people are living in poverty in this country vs the last administration, and how many are living in poverty in texas vs the last administration.
Can we have the envelope, please?
It reads: Gore Wins! Gore Wins! Gore Wins! Gore Wins! Gore Wins!
If you want people to live in squalor, to breathe crappy air, to not have access to medical facilities, and to live in fear of bad judges and kangaroo courts, go ahead and vote for bushlite. I think the country is humming along just fine right now, and have no reason to think that Gore is going to screw things up...
Are you better off today than you were 8 years ago? And you want to mess with that?
Can we have the envelope, please?
It reads: Gore Wins! Gore Wins! Gore Wins! Gore Wins! Gore Wins!
If you want people to live in squalor, to breathe crappy air, to not have access to medical facilities, and to live in fear of bad judges and kangaroo courts, go ahead and vote for bushlite. I think the country is humming along just fine right now, and have no reason to think that Gore is going to screw things up...
Are you better off today than you were 8 years ago? And you want to mess with that?
Al Gore != Clinton. I really don't see voting in Al Gore as a statement that all is well with the status Quo. Although some will vote that way. Actually it's one of the arguments I think that dissapoints me the most, at least have some convictions about the candidates either way. Al Gore hardly has anything to do with the booming economy, so either way it's a crapshoot on the next president.
Another criteria of being a good president, and I can't believe I forgot this!, is an understanding of history. It's terribly important for a nation's president to know the ins and outs of his country's past and in the case of the US, world history. George H. W. Bush once said in an interview a couple of years ago that there's not much a president can do with domestic policy but he has influence in foreign policy. (blame the domestic "do nothing" excuse on the two-party system.) History directly relates to how you manage foreign policy!
Basically, I see Bush Jr. failing miserably in this regard. At least Gore knows his history better...trouble with him is, he'd discount it in a heartbeat if it was politically expedient to do so. Damnit, a wash again! :|
Basically, I see Bush Jr. failing miserably in this regard. At least Gore knows his history better...trouble with him is, he'd discount it in a heartbeat if it was politically expedient to do so. Damnit, a wash again! :|
OK, let's look at the record: look at bushlite's environmental record, and look at Gore's environmental record.
Bush: Small improvements in Texas, but things were worse under the previous Demo gov.
Gore: Typical Democrat; talks real big and nice but does nothing
Look at Gore's record in the military, and look at bushlite's record.
Bush: Texas Air Guard
Gore: Went to Vietnam to take pictures. Smoked a lot of weed in the military too.
Look at the economy of the country, vs the economy of Texas.
Bush: Improved things over how they were under previous governor
Gore: Nothing
Look at how many people are living in poverty in this country vs the last administration, and how many are living in poverty in texas vs the last administration.
Neither Bush nor Gore, as far as I know, did anything significant.
I think the country is humming along just fine right now, and have no reason to think that Gore is going to screw things up...
Are you better off today than you were 8 years ago? And you want to mess with that?
That's why you're such a simpleton. You foolishly associate all that's good with our economy with Clinton. I don't know where to start with how dumb you are. A)Clinton hasn't done jack sh!t to help our economy B)The rest of the world is falling apart. With your same simple minded backward ass logic isn't that Clintons fault? C) What about the current economic slump? Using the same logic isn't that Clintons fault?
Your arguments defy reason.
Bush: Small improvements in Texas, but things were worse under the previous Demo gov.
Gore: Typical Democrat; talks real big and nice but does nothing
Look at Gore's record in the military, and look at bushlite's record.
Bush: Texas Air Guard
Gore: Went to Vietnam to take pictures. Smoked a lot of weed in the military too.
Look at the economy of the country, vs the economy of Texas.
Bush: Improved things over how they were under previous governor
Gore: Nothing
Look at how many people are living in poverty in this country vs the last administration, and how many are living in poverty in texas vs the last administration.
Neither Bush nor Gore, as far as I know, did anything significant.
I think the country is humming along just fine right now, and have no reason to think that Gore is going to screw things up...
Are you better off today than you were 8 years ago? And you want to mess with that?
That's why you're such a simpleton. You foolishly associate all that's good with our economy with Clinton. I don't know where to start with how dumb you are. A)Clinton hasn't done jack sh!t to help our economy B)The rest of the world is falling apart. With your same simple minded backward ass logic isn't that Clintons fault? C) What about the current economic slump? Using the same logic isn't that Clintons fault?
Your arguments defy reason.
Oh, and what about all the lying and scandals? Funny how you swerved the topic from that to blabbering about all the good things the current administration has supposedly done.
Let's assume for a minute that the current administration is actually responsible for all those good things. Are you telling me that it's ok to lie under oath, cheat, steal, and sell government secrets to foreign countries as long as you lower unemployment and improve the enviroment?
Let's assume for a minute that the current administration is actually responsible for all those good things. Are you telling me that it's ok to lie under oath, cheat, steal, and sell government secrets to foreign countries as long as you lower unemployment and improve the enviroment?
Last night's debate was sh!t for both candidates. I mean, you would thing these guys were running in the same party. They were trying too hard not to offend anyone, and to stay moderate. I think most of us realized that. Of course, the Gorons as usual ALWAYS claim victory for their side. No one really won that debate, it was a mutual let.
<< JB, I thought you didn't smoke pot. Last night you guys weren't acting like you thought Forest Bush won. >>
Red, you remember that drug thread eh? I my mind they "washed" last night but today, according to polls plus what I'm seeing at the media outlets, and the fact many independents actually got off the fence in favor of Shrub, I'm forced to conclude Bush won just as Gore won the first one. Big deal. Yesterday chess9 also claimed it was a wash yet today he starts a thread "debate coachs claim Gore won". Both our "flip-plops" are due to new information and perhaps underlying political slants.
Even though I'm not planning to vote for either of these doughnut heads, I can play armchair two-party politics just like everybody else including you I might add!
None of this matters much, though, unless my fellow americans including soccermoms are tuned to Off Topic here at AnandTech.
I'm actually beginning to be turned off by politics again. This happened to me once before when Clinton and King Bush I fought for the heavyweight title. Somehow, in the past 8 years I managed to pick up an interest in politics again but I'm struggling to hold on to it. Damn, chess9 can you recommend any classical music that's "courageous" and "inspirational"? I'm really beginning to think I need it.
Red, you remember that drug thread eh? I my mind they "washed" last night but today, according to polls plus what I'm seeing at the media outlets, and the fact many independents actually got off the fence in favor of Shrub, I'm forced to conclude Bush won just as Gore won the first one. Big deal. Yesterday chess9 also claimed it was a wash yet today he starts a thread "debate coachs claim Gore won". Both our "flip-plops" are due to new information and perhaps underlying political slants.
Even though I'm not planning to vote for either of these doughnut heads, I can play armchair two-party politics just like everybody else including you I might add!
None of this matters much, though, unless my fellow americans including soccermoms are tuned to Off Topic here at AnandTech.
I'm actually beginning to be turned off by politics again. This happened to me once before when Clinton and King Bush I fought for the heavyweight title. Somehow, in the past 8 years I managed to pick up an interest in politics again but I'm struggling to hold on to it. Damn, chess9 can you recommend any classical music that's "courageous" and "inspirational"? I'm really beginning to think I need it.
grrrr.......(disclaimer: i'm not legal voting age yet, so my opinion doesn't count.)
anyway, why is the issue who won?
Gore: As an alaskan, i must be opposed to his stance on anwr-75% favor opening it up, including the natives who live there, alaska's oil fields are the safest and most environmentally friendly in the world, and bring billions to the nations economy. if anwr was developed, an area about half the size of the anchorage, alaska airport would be affected. if they really cared about the environment then why is this administration encouraging russia to develpe it's artic coastline for oil production, huh?
Bush: It's my opinion that bush is a moron. Why do we need the death penalty? If one person dies wrongly because of the death penalty, yet 99 die that are guilty, does that make it right? In my opinion, no. And if bush is a born-again christian, and pretends to follow the bible, he would probably come to the conclusion that life is sacred. How can he be pro-death penalty and anti-abortion? Doesn't make sense to me. Also, why the hell should we send drug-dealers and drug users to prison? Should we send people who ruin their health by eating to much fast food to prison? Uhmmm...no, last time I checked the constitution at the federal level gives the government no power to regulate this sort of issue.
I think, that instead of wasting our energy debating bush/gore, we should spend it trying to convince people to vote for neither one.
anyway, why is the issue who won?
Gore: As an alaskan, i must be opposed to his stance on anwr-75% favor opening it up, including the natives who live there, alaska's oil fields are the safest and most environmentally friendly in the world, and bring billions to the nations economy. if anwr was developed, an area about half the size of the anchorage, alaska airport would be affected. if they really cared about the environment then why is this administration encouraging russia to develpe it's artic coastline for oil production, huh?
Bush: It's my opinion that bush is a moron. Why do we need the death penalty? If one person dies wrongly because of the death penalty, yet 99 die that are guilty, does that make it right? In my opinion, no. And if bush is a born-again christian, and pretends to follow the bible, he would probably come to the conclusion that life is sacred. How can he be pro-death penalty and anti-abortion? Doesn't make sense to me. Also, why the hell should we send drug-dealers and drug users to prison? Should we send people who ruin their health by eating to much fast food to prison? Uhmmm...no, last time I checked the constitution at the federal level gives the government no power to regulate this sort of issue.
I think, that instead of wasting our energy debating bush/gore, we should spend it trying to convince people to vote for neither one.
JB:
Actually, what I meant in this debate thread was that Gore had won the debate from a technical debating standpoint. I still think it was a draw in terms of effect. Most people don't view a debate the way a debater would. Most folks take a much more emotional approach. I posted this early this a.m. before I left and should have been clearer. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
Also, these polls are unreliable because they are heavily biased towards male viewpoints. This race is very close I'm sure. As I mentioned above, very few women are willing to discuss politics with the boys, probably because we play so rough! (And it's really a dumb game, anyway!) We get a very skewed sample on the net and here on AT.
Actually, what I meant in this debate thread was that Gore had won the debate from a technical debating standpoint. I still think it was a draw in terms of effect. Most people don't view a debate the way a debater would. Most folks take a much more emotional approach. I posted this early this a.m. before I left and should have been clearer. My apologies for the misunderstanding.
Also, these polls are unreliable because they are heavily biased towards male viewpoints. This race is very close I'm sure. As I mentioned above, very few women are willing to discuss politics with the boys, probably because we play so rough!
(And it's really a dumb game, anyway!) We get a very skewed sample on the net and here on AT.It seems to me like the public in some cases take stances on politics and debates like they do with personal computers. They sometimes rally behind one 'platform' regardless of the facts.
I liken this political atmosphere like that of the debate between Macs and PCs. Each have their rabid followers who don't care to listen to either side's arguments.
But hey it is fun to listen to.
I liken this political atmosphere like that of the debate between Macs and PCs. Each have their rabid followers who don't care to listen to either side's arguments.
But hey it is fun to listen to.
What can you expect from Red Dawn? As a minority woman he is part of Gore's biggest support group.
KingHam
KingHamI have a couple of ex-debaters at work. they both agree that Gore won the debate.
The both base this on "debate technique". What they dont have a feel for is how america views the debate and who won.
People who watched the debate and were looking for a reason to vote for either person have clearly showed in the after debate snap polls that Bush won. This is what matters.
Worse for Gore is that he became emasculaated by his politics. After crying about Bush attacking him personally, and polarizing the voters against attacks, he is now forced into trying to be a nice guy. What everybody saw last night is that Gore was very uncomfortable being nice. He has now reached the point where he cant win without attacking Bush. The polls are showing Bush is winning on the issues, on being believable, and improving his favorable rating. Gore still wins on getting his views across, but that is a problem too. It seems that the clearer he is on his own issues, the more people like Bushs position. He is making himself look worse as clearifies his position in contrast to those of Bush.
You can take a look at the CNN poll here
[L=Poll]http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/10/12/flash.poll/index.html[L]
The both base this on "debate technique". What they dont have a feel for is how america views the debate and who won.
People who watched the debate and were looking for a reason to vote for either person have clearly showed in the after debate snap polls that Bush won. This is what matters.
Worse for Gore is that he became emasculaated by his politics. After crying about Bush attacking him personally, and polarizing the voters against attacks, he is now forced into trying to be a nice guy. What everybody saw last night is that Gore was very uncomfortable being nice. He has now reached the point where he cant win without attacking Bush. The polls are showing Bush is winning on the issues, on being believable, and improving his favorable rating. Gore still wins on getting his views across, but that is a problem too. It seems that the clearer he is on his own issues, the more people like Bushs position. He is making himself look worse as clearifies his position in contrast to those of Bush.
You can take a look at the CNN poll here
[L=Poll]http://www.cnn.com/2000/ALLPOLITICS/stories/10/12/flash.poll/index.html[L]
Debate coaches are morons.
Vote.com
Al Gore (3,715)
(8%)
George W. Bush (45,119)
(92%)
OOOOPs... I'm sorry - I forgot that conservatives control the entire internet. Bwah.
Vote.com
Al Gore (3,715)
(8%)
George W. Bush (45,119)
(92%)
OOOOPs... I'm sorry - I forgot that conservatives control the entire internet. Bwah.
Red -
Can't be possibly worse than electing Bill "Slick Willie's" son.
Who would you rather see in office? - without direct popular vote - no matter what answer you give, it's invalid.
There... we have the root of the problem.
Can't be possibly worse than electing Bill "Slick Willie's" son.
Who would you rather see in office? - without direct popular vote - no matter what answer you give, it's invalid.
There... we have the root of the problem.
Red, I have no doubt that either Bush or Gore will try to get their domestic plan through the Congress. I also have no doubt that Congress will change them before any of it gets passed, if it gets passed.
For sure neither one will get their budget passed as is. I would expect either of their tax cut plans to change radically in Congress. Gore's will increase and Bushs will decrease. Gore will get less new programs than he wants and Bush will get more than wants.
For sure neither one will get their budget passed as is. I would expect either of their tax cut plans to change radically in Congress. Gore's will increase and Bushs will decrease. Gore will get less new programs than he wants and Bush will get more than wants.
I would have to say that Gore won again on the second debate.
He showed me more understanding and intelligence in his answers. Bush's were just quick and simple, with no thought. His language and choice of words seemed to lack the intelligence that a more qualified person should have. Bush spoke like the average guy at the suppermarket would. I think Gore's responses showed a higher level of intelligence.
My 2 cents
He showed me more understanding and intelligence in his answers. Bush's were just quick and simple, with no thought. His language and choice of words seemed to lack the intelligence that a more qualified person should have. Bush spoke like the average guy at the suppermarket would. I think Gore's responses showed a higher level of intelligence.
My 2 cents
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