Dead meat : robotics

[cytg111]

I guess I'm not surprised that you would actually think socialism is the answer to all our problems.

And for the record, I agree with Jhhnn....but the devil is in the details.

Socialism is not the answer to all problems. There is degrees of socialism AND socialism does not equal communism.

 

[SMOGZINN]

Automation would be a wonderful thing if the robots benefited humanity instead of humans. Whenever I hear discussions about the impact and automation, the arguments are always about how new jobs will open up to replace the ones being automated. No one ever seems to discuss how automation could lead to us simply working fewer hours.

Automation is already leading to fewer working hours for many people. A significant portion of the workforce have become part-time, seasonal, or otherwise underemployed. It is the main method that automation reduces jobs. It does get rid of some altogether, but much more often it just makes it take less time to do the same job, leading to either few people or increasingly for companies that already pay little in the way of benefits and don't want the bad press of layoffs, fewer hours for the same number of existing workers.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I guess I'm not surprised that you would actually think socialism is the answer to all our problems.

And for the record, I agree with Jhhnn....but the devil is in the details.

If you can find a solution that is not socialist in nature many people would be very interested. Overall I'm a capitalist, but increasingly I don't see any workable solutions to the robotic revolution in capitalism.

 

[mect]

Automation is already leading to fewer working hours for many people. A significant portion of the workforce have become part-time, seasonal, or otherwise underemployed. It is the main method that automation reduces jobs. It does get rid of some altogether, but much more often it just makes it take less time to do the same job, leading to either few people or increasingly for companies that already pay little in the way of benefits and don't want the bad press of layoffs, fewer hours for the same number of existing workers.

Yes, this is the practical aspect. I should have clarified people should talk about reducing what society considers full time employment. Yes, automation leads to shorter work weeks for those directly affected, but it hasn't in my opinion affected what most people consider full time employment. I was referring more to societies perception of what constitutes a full time job. Basically, instead of just driving down the working hours of those affected directly by the automation, that we as a society look to drive down working hours for everyone. Start pushing a 30-35 hour standard work week. Start considering this full time employment, and if necessary provide socialized support so that this maintains similar wages to a longer work week, where the productivity of automation is being distributed to the workers as well as the owners.

 

[cytg111]

If you can find a solution that is not socialist in nature many people would be very interested. Overall I'm a capitalist, but increasingly I don't see any workable solutions to the robotic revolution in capitalism.

And that is the inevitable mental exercise. I like my capitalism too, I like to work and I like to get paid... non the less, how the hell is this going to work out down the road for all of us.

 

[Engineer]

When it's cheaper to buy and maintain a robot to do menial jobs than it is to pay a person FAR more than the job is worth ($15 per hour at McDonalds, for example), we'll see automation show up like this a lot more.

Cheap Chinese made robots (or cheaper robots from anywhere for that matter as prices fall) + 3D vision and other enhancements.....makes robots far more practical to replace jobs and an economical price.

Now getting the robot to buy stuff and help the economy? Well, that's not so easy....

 

[SMOGZINN]

Start considering this full time employment, and if necessary provide socialized support so that this maintains similar wages to a longer work week, where the productivity of automation is being distributed to the workers as well as the owners.

Yes, something like this will have to happen. Barring a singularity like moment, that is how we will transform from a human labor based economy to a robotic one. The question everyone is trying to figure out is how we subsidize the lower wages that business are going to pay for the lesser amount of human labor they require? Corporations will not willingly keep paying a living wage to people they don't need. For them the point of automation is to increase profit by lowering payroll. They will be highly resistant to anything that will cut into the savings of automation.

The problem for workers is that as robotics increasingly takes over human labor they are going to see a double downward pressure on wages. Fewer hours means more people wanting the hours that are available, meaning that individuals will have more competition for those hours, meaning companies can pay less for each of those hours. So individual workers end up in a situation where they don't get enough hours to make a decent living, and are in increasingly pressured to take less money than the next guy to get a few more hours in. All encouraged by companies that will gladly promote competitive behavior. Which is a major goal on the legal attacks on unions.

 

[mect]

Yes, something like this will have to happen. Barring a singularity like moment, that is how we will transform from a human labor based economy to a robotic one. The question everyone is trying to figure out is how we subsidize the lower wages that business are going to pay for the lesser amount of human labor they require? Corporations will not willingly keep paying a living wage to people they don't need. For them the point of automation is to increase profit by lowering payroll. They will be highly resistant to anything that will cut into the savings of automation.

The problem for workers is that as robotics increasingly takes over human labor they are going to see a double downward pressure on wages. Fewer hours means more people wanting the hours that are available, meaning that individuals will have more competition for those hours, meaning companies can pay less for each of those hours. So individual workers end up in a situation where they don't get enough hours to make a decent living, and are in increasingly pressured to take less money than the next guy to get a few more hours in. All encouraged by companies that will gladly promote competitive behavior. Which is a major goal on the legal attacks on unions.

This is one of the reasons I really like the idea of a universal basic income and think it is going to be necessary for stabilizing the middle class in the near future, at least at some level. It counters the downward pressures on wages, but still encourages capitalistic practices to promote competition. Basically, if everyone is getting a paycheck, they are not as dependent on getting those extra hours, so companies will need to pay more to get employees, but at the same time most would still want to work to increase their living conditions. It also takes away the negative stigma of welfare because everyone is getting it. The challenge with a UBI is the initial implementation. It would take a massive increase in taxation, and most American's aren't ready for that, even if most would get back more than their tax increase. Perhaps we could start with a small, relatively insignificant UBI of a couple thousand dollars per adult per year and then slowly ramp it up.

 

[Fern]

Please make one that picks crops.

Fern

 

[Victorian Gray]

Please make one that picks crops.

Fern

They're working on it

https://spectrum.ieee.org/automaton...-plant-tend-and-harvest-entire-crop-of-barley

https://www.pbs.org/newshour/science/apple-picking-robot-means-future-farm-workers

 

[jackstar7]

How do you propose we save ourselves? Socialism?

I guess I'm not surprised that you would actually think socialism is the answer to all our problems.

And for the record, I agree with Jhhnn....but the devil is in the details.

I beg of you guys, do not engage.

 

[cytg111]

This is one of the reasons I really like the idea of a universal basic income and think it is going to be necessary for stabilizing the middle class in the near future, at least at some level. It counters the downward pressures on wages, but still encourages capitalistic practices to promote competition. Basically, if everyone is getting a paycheck, they are not as dependent on getting those extra hours, so companies will need to pay more to get employees, but at the same time most would still want to work to increase their living conditions. It also takes away the negative stigma of welfare because everyone is getting it. The challenge with a UBI is the initial implementation. It would take a massive increase in taxation, and most American's aren't ready for that, even if most would get back more than their tax increase. Perhaps we could start with a small, relatively insignificant UBI of a couple thousand dollars per adult per year and then slowly ramp it up.

I see UBI as an unavoidable fact of the future as well however that is only dealing with the first half of the problem IMO. Imagine this workforce, say 50 percent+ of the population, with nothing to do. Nothing to do. Having a work day has the upside, besides generating a paycheck, of filling out your day with meaningful stuff to do. If we dont find meaningful tasks for people to engage in I predict we are looking at crime and corruption as a biproduct of these idle hands.. the same basic instinct that makes capitalism work, to elevate ourselves to gain that edge, that instinct is gonna find other avenues to achieve that extra.
UBI is the immediate solution to the consequence of the next industrial revolution.. but what to do with all those idle hands? I dont know... (colonize mars?)

 

[pmv]

As history has shown us over and over and over again...Luddites are brain-dead morons.

(a) Luddites smashed the machines...that's not generally what anyone is talking about at the moment, so who are these 'Luddites' to which you refer?
(b) History hasn't shown us 'over and over' again, as we only have one history, and it constantly changes. It's not a simple repeating pattern. Those who forget the past might repeat it, but those who attempt to learn from the past usually learn the wrong lessons and just get things wrong in a different way than the previous time.

 

[Victorian Gray]

As history has shown us over and over and over again...Luddites are brain-dead morons.

It's interesting how many people refer to Luddites without having the slightest clue as to who they were and what they were fighting for and why. American education?

 

[senseamp]

Awesome! Hopefully burger flipper will be eliminated as a profession.

 

[Jhhnn]

I guess I'm not surprised that you would actually think socialism is the answer to all our problems.

And for the record, I agree with Jhhnn....but the devil is in the details.

Well, then, we should be able to agree that the GOP is taking us in exactly the wrong direction.

 

[mect]

I see UBI as an unavoidable fact of the future as well however that is only dealing with the first half of the problem IMO. Imagine this workforce, say 50 percent+ of the population, with nothing to do. Nothing to do. Having a work day has the upside, besides generating a paycheck, of filling out your day with meaningful stuff to do. If we dont find meaningful tasks for people to engage in I predict we are looking at crime and corruption as a biproduct of these idle hands.. the same basic instinct that makes capitalism work, to elevate ourselves to gain that edge, that instinct is gonna find other avenues to achieve that extra.
UBI is the immediate solution to the consequence of the next industrial revolution.. but what to do with all those idle hands? I dont know... (colonize mars?)

I think work could be generated for those that want it. But this is also why I think a shorter work week would help. Long enough for most people to find job satisfaction and to feel like they are making a meaningful contribution, but short enough to decrease the negative effects of stress. Otherwise, I do think we could significantly increase the number of jobs in public recreation, governance, social services, teaching, etc where a personal connection is important. To me, the important aspect of the UBI is to prevent all the money from flowing into the hands of the owners of automation and to prevent them from leveraging their power to force people into unfavorable labor contracts as a result of the power differential.

 

[Bitek]

I don't understand this robot and the overall workflow. Way too much needless motion, way too complex of machinery for the task, way too expensive.
Dumb gimmick.

I don't see any significant benefit over buying a broiler with a conveyor.

Both are "automation", so would be just a microwave, but no one freaks out over a business buying a microwave.

 

[5to1baby1in5]

Automation would be a wonderful thing if the robots benefited humanity instead of humans. Whenever I hear discussions about the impact and automation, the arguments are always about how new jobs will open up to replace the ones being automated. No one ever seems to discuss how automation could lead to us simply working fewer hours.

Fewer Hep. A outbreaks might be a benefit to humanity.

 

[cytg111]

I think work could be generated for those that want it. But this is also why I think a shorter work week would help. Long enough for most people to find job satisfaction and to feel like they are making a meaningful contribution, but short enough to decrease the negative effects of stress. Otherwise, I do think we could significantly increase the number of jobs in public recreation, governance, social services, teaching, etc where a personal connection is important. To me, the important aspect of the UBI is to prevent all the money from flowing into the hands of the owners of automation and to prevent them from leveraging their power to force people into unfavorable labor contracts as a result of the power differential.

I think we are of one mind on this one.

 

[SMOGZINN]

This is one of the reasons I really like the idea of a universal basic income and think it is going to be necessary for stabilizing the middle class in the near future, at least at some level. It counters the downward pressures on wages, but still encourages capitalistic practices to promote competition.

I see UBI as an unavoidable fact of the future as well however that is only dealing with the first half of the problem IMO.

While I agree that a UBI would be useful, I think the problem is that you can't expect the middle class to pay for it. Simply because the whole point of the UBI is that the middle class is dyeing. If you redistribute wealth from the middle class to the lower class all you are doing is spreading the small percent of wealth they control more evenly allowing it to more efficiently be hoovered up by the wealthy due their control of the goods basic sustenance that most of that money must go towards and are very inelastic. Instead it has to be paid for by taxation on the automation, or the increased profits they generate. That is a battle we are currently losing handedly.

UBI is the immediate solution to the consequence of the next industrial revolution.. but what to do with all those idle hands? I dont know... (colonize mars?)

I think that one of the things is that we are all going to have to get better at generating our own purpose. I would suggest that we start with a new emphasis on higher education. We can add 4 years of university to basic education. A bachelors degree can become part of public education. But overall, this is a problem I don't think we solve with one solution, but instead a thousand smaller ones.

 

[Bitek]

I know you guys are going OT on UBI and all that again, but I'm still astounded how Fking stupid this burger shop is in the way it designed it's production workflow and the needless, expensive automation solutions it's put in place.

Automated burger cookers have existed for a long time and are far more flexible, capable, safe, reliable and less expensive than that SCARA robot & vision system.

He's been training it for a year, and two cooked patties missed the tray. God forbid I order chicken, how long would it take to train it for that? Lol.

Lastly, that workspace is fucking dangerous. You cannot leave a robot exposed like that, as unexpected motion can injure a worker severely.

Safety guarding with interlocks needs to be put around it. Not an E-stop in sight. Not only that, the workflow has workers needing to get in-between the active robot and an open grill and a wall. It's not too difficult to imagine a worker getting pinned onto the hot grill by the robot, and with no easy way to free the worker. Holy shit. Lawsuits and OSHA finds waiting to happen. Dumb stuff like this is how people get killed on the job site.

Burger King says you're doing it wrong:

 

[bshole]

I see UBI as an unavoidable fact of the future as well however that is only dealing with the first half of the problem IMO. Imagine this workforce, say 50 percent+ of the population, with nothing to do.

I would rather imagine them working on our infrastructure which is in the worst condition in my lifetime and headed in the wrong direction.

 

[mect]

I know you guys are going OT on UBI and all that again, but I'm still astounded how Fking stupid this burger shop is in the way it designed it's production workflow and the needless, expensive automation solutions it's put in place.

Automated burger cookers have existed for a long time and are far more flexible, capable, safe, reliable and less expensive than that SCARA robot & vision system.

He's been training it for a year, and two cooked patties missed the tray. God forbid I order chicken, how long would it take to train it for that? Lol.

Lastly, that workspace is fucking dangerous. You cannot leave a robot exposed like that, as unexpected motion can injure a worker severely.

Safety guarding with interlocks needs to be put around it. Not an E-stop in sight. Not only that, the workflow has workers needing to get in-between the active robot and an open grill and a wall. It's not too difficult to imagine a worker getting pinned onto the hot grill by the robot, and with no easy way to free the worker. Holy shit. Lawsuits and OSHA finds waiting to happen. Dumb stuff like this is how people get killed on the job site.

Burger King says you're doing it wrong:

How are automated burger cookers more flexible or capable? This thing has built in thermal imaging to track when the burgers are done and the ability to handle the cooking time of each burger independently. While they're talking about using it to get the same result every time, that's their choice, not the limitation of the robot. This robot could easily be programmed to cook burgers to order. In addition, it should do a much better job of cooking the burgers to the desired point since it is actively monitoring the temperature of every burger individually. Conveyor style automated cookers have temperature gradients and fluctuations, and every burger cooks the same amount of time.

In terms of the safety, I agree their setup is really bad. I don't understand why they would invest so much in a robot to cook the burgers, but can't automate adding a slice of cheese. Have all the automated work take place in an area employees don't enter with interlocks in place to shut things down if someone does, and have the burgers stacked on a shelf for the employees to pick up. Hopefully the robot arm at least has collision interlocks so that it shuts down if a certain amount of force is encountered.

 

[SMOGZINN]

I know you guys are going OT on UBI and all that again, but I'm still astounded how Fking stupid this burger shop is in the way it designed it's production workflow and the needless, expensive automation solutions it's put in place.

I don't think this is really meant to be a production line as much as robot burger theater.