DDR Manufacturers have a way out of paying royalties to Rambus

[Eli]

They are NOT helping. Who cares if the royalty is "only" 1-3% .. That's 1-3% more than we should be paying! and the fact that they said they'd raise the royalty fee for DDR in order to make RAMBUS more competitive, is horseshit!

We don't need to deal with that kind of crap. The ammount doesen't matter, Its the fact that they're doing it at all.


See sig please.

 

[apoppin]

So in fact Eli, you are saying it is not the actual royalties, it is the principle of the issue that offends you

And TopQ, if I understand you right - and I am not really sure - that if Rambus does not own these ideas, don't worry - the patents will be revoked. And if they do, Rambus will control the memory market which is suck.
Well, if they do get paid royalties, that is far from control. Rambus does not manufacture anything and will be glad to be paid from either SDRAM/DDRAM or RDRAM. Why should they care?

It is Intel that wants RDRAM to dominate the marketplace. At any rate the market will determine what RAM we have in our computers. Price vs. Performance.

EDIT: Why don't the DRAM companies just create their own 'clean-room' intellectual property, as Intel suggests? That way they would be free of any royalties.

 

[Stringy]

People must remember RAMBUS owns IP on the Frabrication Technology, not the DDR SDR memory type... If these RAM manufacturers did indeed learn how to manufacture or increase yeilds using RAMBUS' IP then they do owe RAMBUS money... Simple fact...
though these Processes could be called "common knowledge" in the DRAM fab world, the courts will have to decide this, if it makes it that far...

Now how RAMBUS is Artificially controling the market is what concerns me... They are killing the competition on the merits of performance in favor of Politics...
Intel may be doing the same thing, But intel differs from RAMBUS in that Intel actually makes something, RAMBUS just makes ideas and processes nothing more..

Hopefully manufacturers like Micron and the other DRAM manufacturers will find another way to produce DDR that doesn't involve RAMBUS' supposed patents...

I could careless who makes money, I do care if someone decides FOR me which is the best solution when I know their is a better one avalible...

Edit: Apoppin

<< At any rate the market will determine what RAM we have in our computers. Price vs. Performance. >>

But this is the whole point to the Arguement, RAMBUS is stacking the Deck in the Price vs Performance comparison and this activity removes alot of the Consumers power to influence what technology gets adopted....




Craig

 

[apoppin]

Now I think we're finally getting somewhere.

How, Stringy, is Rambus &quot;stacking the Deck in the Price vs Performance comparison,&quot; (1)if the DRAM companies can easily develop their own clean-room intellectual property, or (2)if they pay royalties of only 1-3% to Rambus???????

In other words, what difference does it make to the final price of RAM, if a manufacturer pays 1% royalty for SDRAM, 2% royalty for RDRAM or 3% royalty for DDRAM or no royalty at all?

 

[Stringy]

apoppin posted:

<< (1)if the DRAM companies can easily develop their own clean-room intellectual property, or (2)if they pay royalties of only 1-3% to Rambus???????
In other words, what difference does it make to the final price of RAM, if a manufacturer pays 1% royalty for SDRAM, 2% royalty for RDRAM or 3% royalty for DDRAM or no royalty at all? >>


Ok I'll bite ;o)
The &quot;stacking&quot; of the Deck is the Royalty difference for IP that obviously took less to develope in R&amp;D than DDR...
yer #1 above assumes this IP is genuinely original and exclusive to RAMBUS, this may or may not be the case, unfortunately I haven't seen any whitepapers on exactly what IP RAMBUS is refering to that they alledge has been infringed upon... or that I'd understand it ;o)

And fer #2, you are assuming these are little %'s, I haven't seen any release stating the Royalty scale that RAMBUS has.. besides, we are talking about a royalty for Each and EVERY chip manufactured using RAMBUS' IP, and since (I beleive) DDR requires multi-chip DIMM's this small % can really addup as the more chips are added....

As I stated above, it's the Atificial manipulation of the Market that bothers me... They increased the DDR Royalty ONLY to make RDR able to compete against DDR... and it's not like they LOWERED RDR's Royalty, No, they decided to RAISE and in effect Penalize the DDR tech just on the shear basis it's not RDR....
this is what is so Ethically questionable... Everyone likes the Free-Enterprise system (well I do atleast) I just don't like when Co's take advantage of it... MS did FAR less to incure such treatment, and they prolly have more IP wrapped up in Windows than RAMBUS has in DDR....




Craig

 

[cableguy]

or,

you could say the memory manufacturers are artificially stacking the deck by choosing to manufacture very little RDRAM, limiting supply, and driving the price up to anywhere from 5 - 10x the amount of SDRAM.

but,

then you would say that it is more profitable for the dram manufacturers to make SDRAM because it is easier to manufacure and it has more customers( and give DDR a better shot at as being the NEXT memory).

This is the point.
Both Rambus and the Dramurai look after themselves and do whatever will make them the most money.

 

[apoppin]

Thanks, cableguy, well said. Rambus and the memory manufacturers are equally guilty of GREED.

Intel artificially manipulated this same market - they admitted &quot;its a little more complicated than we anticipated.&quot;

The memory manufacturers banded together as Dramurai to artificially manipulate the market by manufacturing tons of SDRAM (which they thought they could get away from paying royalties) and very little RDRAM (driving up its prices - artificially).

Microsoft uses its position to preinstall its O/S and web browser on computers to artificially stifle competition.

The oil companies artificially manipulate the market to price fix and gouge us.

How is Rambus MORE guilty? If I am going to sign a petition or write to the DOJ, I want to be sure.

Stringy to answer,
1) The IP may or nor be genuine but at least some of the memory manufacturers think so. We have to with hold judgement at the moment until they all do or the courts descide.
2) See my 4:01 post. If it's 3%, how much should it add to final product? Not that much, unless the memory manufacturers are greedy and turn it into an excuse to gouge us, the end user.

 

[Russ]

<< Clearly, the Rambus issue was a little more complicated than we anticipated. >>



Here is a translation of the above:

We had no idea that the marketplace would look at the cost and tell us to stick it.

Russ, NCNE

 

[Stringy]

<< Intel artificially manipulated this same market - they admitted &quot;its a little more complicated than we anticipated.&quot; >>


Agreed, but thanks to VIA, Intel hasn't been all the successful in shoving inferior products down the consumer's thoat..


<< The memory manufacturers banded together as Dramurai to artificially manipulate the market by manufacturing tons of SDRAM (which they thought they could get away from paying royalties) and very little RDRAM (driving up its prices - artificially). >>


Yes they do, I wasn't defending the un-Ethical behavior of DRAM manufacturers... though their SDR isn't overly priced... well it went up again but really $120 fer 128Mb is pretty cheap concidering...


<< Microsoft uses its position to preinstall its O/S and web browser on computers to artificially stifle competition. >>


Well see this is where I disagree... there wasn't a better alternative to MS for some time.. Lunix is just now getting it's act together for the &quot;common&quot; PC user (or the lazy ones), and None has the support that MS has with their windows line... All major manufacturer's have ported crucial App's to the Windows enviornment which did make Windows a very attractive OS... not saying it's the better one, as this differs for everyone.. So it wasn't Artificial competition, they were making a better product cheaper (again for the majority of PC users, where the money is)


<< The oil companies artificially manipulate the market to price fix and gouge us >>

Yes they are, but is this right?? Ethical??


<< How is Rambus MORE guilty? If I am going to sign a petition or write to the DOJ, I want to be sure >>

More guilty because they are stiffling or will, the markets ability to progress, right now Memory is one of the bigger bottlenecks that a PC encounters... Increasing the price will only deter movement, and this is RAMBUS' purpose, to force us to adopt RAMBUS as a std. which will rain in the money for their IP for years to come... with DDR I don't think they have such a strong hold on future developement as they do with RDR because with RDR they own the actual Technology completely...

And as fer the Royalties being 2% vs 3% for RDR and DDR respectively you have no idea what it is (if so please do point to it as I'm interested in this) it could be 2% and 5% or more...




Craig

 

[OneEng]

I don't hate RAMBUS because of the &quot;whatever&quot; licensing fee. I don't hate RAMBUS because they are in cahoots with Intel. I HATE RAMBUS BECAUSE THEIR VERY EXISTANCE DIMINISHES THE ADVANCEMENT OF TECHNOLOGY! Eloquence escapes me as I have no words to describe the depths that RAMBUS Inc. pisses me off.

OK, This is the more rational explanation.

RAMBUS does not MAKE anything. They do not invent anything, they purchase patents and IP and then look for someone to sue for violating their &quot;patents and IP&quot;. They are litigating bottom feeders. I object to their business philosophy so strongly that I believe there should be an international law against such a company.

Let me ask you a counter question. What good can come from a company such as RAMBUS?

 

[apoppin]

Russ, we knew that. The Intel CEO is nothing more than a politician. I know Intel is trying to distance themselves from Rambus and at the same time trying to maintain its relationship if it somehow succeeds.

Rambus is just trying to survive (and prosper). Dirty tactics is just part of their repertoire - and just about every other big company uses the same tricks today. I just don't see Rambus as more evil or more worthy of our time and discussion.

Stringy, Intel has been very unsucessful recently and AMD and VIA are picking up the marketshare pieces. They tried to artificially stifle competition and failed. Good.

The Dramuri artificially pushed up the prices of RDRAM. $120 for SDRAM 128MB is cheap now but it is going up - why? Because they want more money for it. It's not costing them more to make at this point.

As to choking competition, Rambus just wants its baby to survive and prosper. The Dramurai simply needs to develop royalty-free DDRAM. Then Rambus and its little ba$tard is left out in the cold again.

Oil companies are a glaring example of price fixing. They impact on our daily lives. RAM prices do not unless we are system builders. How often do you upgrade RAM, once-a-year?

Go to my 4:01 PM link to see where I got the 1-3%.

 

[apoppin]

OneEng, kind of like a record company? Insurance company. Lawyers. Politicians. Oil companies. Companies that put very little in but suck much out. How is Rambus more evil?

The above all suck. But they do exist in today's business world.

Unless I am mistaken, they actually developed DDRAM. Intel originally liked it. It has some advantages over current RAM technology. EDIT: Some good memory for the Sony PS2.

What good? If it didn't exist as a perceived unfair form of competition, there would be less motivation to develop other RAM that will blow it away technologically. Or further develop it further if it is worthwhile. It exists to make money for its stockholders, employees and lawyers.

 

[Caitiff]

WAIT a second! I understand the point that is being made in favor of RAMBUS, but it's bogus. Free enterprise is based on supply and demand. At its root, we, the consumers supply the demand. We demand that we have the most efficient memory at the lowest price. In order to provide us w/ that ram, manufacturers jockey to give us what we want at the highest price that we will pay. To keep us buying, they continuously adjust that price to underbid the competition. This gives us what WE want, and the man. what they want. Along comes Rambus, and ARTIFICIALLY adjusts the price to make it more attractive for us to be what is inherently, at this time, INFERIOR technology, at least in terms of performance/price. It is this 'monkey wrench' that jerks my chain. I see them as opportunistic lawyer-mongers that we, the consumers, have no control over!! They already know that we don't want their RAMBUS technology, so they are leveraging the industry to MAKE us buy it by levying a tax on what is destined to be the more popular standard. Sorry for being so long winded, but it seemed that some of the arguements against RAMBUS were faltering.

 

[apoppin]

Caitiff, its so obvious your mind is already completely made up and you didn't read this thread in its entirety. All the comments you made have already been made and answered. You just want to hate Rambus. Jump on the bandwagon.

Or, just look at the title of this thread. The other RAM manufacturers have a WAY OUT. Competition and free enterprise is NOT stifled!

 

[apoppin]

Well, since Rambus is no more evil than any other big company, I might as well apply for work in their PR Dept. They need some serious help (their website sux).

Just Joking!

But I do see there is more ill feeling and rhetoric than anything concrete the Justice Dept can act on. Personally, I don't care for RDRAM and won't have it any time soon in my computer.

BY THE WAY, how many of you Rambus haters have a Sony P/S 2?
Evidently, you and fkloster have something in common. Nice graphics, huh?

 

[Eli]

Why should they have to do that though? Just because they can makes RAMBUS' actions right?


I completely understand what you're saying.. but it's just not right. And the fact that other companys do it doesen't make it any more correct.


You know that if RAMBUS came out with some sort of super-RAM, we'd be all over it. Well, as long as it wasn't $500+/128megs... But ya know.

Rambus isn't helping anything..

 

[apoppin]

Yes, Eli, according to commonly accepted business practices, it's right. You know, RDRAM may someday become super-RAM and we might be all over it. You never know. AMD used to play second fiddle to Intel - who'd a thought it'd change? And Rambus is helping themselves, the first rule of today's (unfair to idealists) business world.

They say look out for Number One (just remember to look out so as to not step in Number Two).

EDIT: As you can see, I am NOT promoting Rambus. I could NEVER take a job working for them - for example. I do not support them. I am just pointing out to the idealists here the reality of the situation. That it's dam#ed unfair- True; but so are a lot of other things. And it is a huge waste of time and energy to endlessly debate that which we cannot change.

 

[Eli]

I agree. RAMBUS is still a cancer to the tech industry though.

We need someone to reorganize the buisness world.

 

[Stringy]

apoppin

<< As you can see, I am NOT promoting Rambus. I could NEVER take a job working for them - for example. I do not support them. I am just pointing out to the idealists here the reality of the situation. That it's dam#ed unfair- True; but so are a lot of other things. And it is a huge waste of time and energy to endlessly debate that which we cannot change. >>

While I do Agree that the Business world does use these tactics all the time, and it's basically what makes Free-Enterprise go 'round.. I don't beleive this is a waste of time discussing it, Nor accepting such business practices if it can be helped...

Information about what goes on in any industry does help keep Companies like Intel and RAMBUS from doing these deeds.. You know how much flak Intel has gotten from all the bad press over all these RDR reviews showing it to be inferior to even SDR, let alone DDR for System RAM... This is a factor in why AMD has gotten such GOOD press, that and their ability to knock out fast CPU's didn't hurt ;o)

As fer your comments about RDR in the PS2, Yes, in a console RDR is an EXCELENT choice for a serial memory, and also RDR could be used for Video card RAM as well with GREAT success... Intergration of RDR into the core logic of a device that reads data primarily in a serial manner would be ideal for RDR, plus the cost wouldn't be all that much more than DDR or SDR because of the smaller trace-routes and other factors (I'm not gonna begin listing I'll be here awhile)
RDR DOES have benefits, but it has drawbacks which make it unsuitable for PC mainmemory and this kind of info should be spread so that it is common knowledge... Education is always important to a wise decision...



Craig
BTW - thanks for the link, sorry I asked ya to post it twice, must have missed it the first time...

 

[AbRASiON]

Rambus patented technology allready in use in the market and then sued
I dont know how they got away with this, but they are far worse than MS as a company,.... only a matter of time before theres some kind of huge explosion at their building >

 

[apoppin]

Stringy, I am so tired acting as &quot;devils advocate&quot; for Rambus and may fail to respond much longer as my body and mind will shut down soon.

Anyway - catching my 3rd wind - please do not put words in my mouth. I did say it is a waste of time to &quot;endlessly debate what we cannot change.&quot; It is NOT a waste of time to discuss it. Have you seen the (surprisingly few here) flaming posts that contribute nothing but a rant?

Obviously Intel is geting the message, note their CEO's comments in the beginning of this thread as they begin to distance themselves from Rambus (if necessary). They are obviously making continguency plans to use DDRAM for Willy.

My comments about P/S 2 has to do with the purpose of RDRAM, why it even exists as an answer to that question. And I also suspect some forum members that hate Rambus also own RDRAM in their Playstation 2 (hypocrites ).

I do have a problem with some people chanting &quot;Death to Rambus&quot;, &quot;Rambus is Evil&quot; and the like without even knowing why. Or realizing there ARE alternatives. Or that the other memory manufacturers are just as greedy (or plain lazy). Some of them are just jumping on the hate bandwagon. Why inflame when you can educate?

That is the purpose of my thread - to educate and inform. An informed decision is a wise decision.

Thanks to all for your participation in this discussion.

EDIT: See ABRaSiON, you are making my point. Entering a discussion with an inflamatory rant, proving you haven't read any of this thread. Go play with you RDRAM Playstation 2.

What are you summing up Inguyen? What is bad? Lack of attention to a thread?

 

[randomlinh]

To sum things up: this is bad.

 

[AbRASiON]

I know all about the hate bandwagon with morons bagging daikatana and MS for no known reason, just cause everyone else does it

But in Rambus's case - basically everyone should hate them for what they are, theives....

 

[apoppin]

Please read the thread then comment.

Basically everyone should hate big business, 'cause they are thieves, thats all.

 

[Stringy]

Apoppin:

<< I am so tired acting as &quot;devils advocate&quot; for Rambus and may fail to respond much longer as my body and mind will shut down soon. >>


Yea, being the antagonist isn't easy... I coulda helped you out alittle but figured you were doing a damn good job on yer own...
you made alot of nice points...

Wew'll see soon how this whole mess sorts out, who knows Company X may come out with KA-DRAM (Kick Arse) and both RAMBUS and DRAM manufacturers can go screw ;o)

Haven't had a nice discussion on here in a while.... some people still need to learn to look beyond the surface... and I don't pretend to be the best at it myself, But I got yer arguement...
Nothing more to add, so I'll bid adue to this thread...



Craig