I think there's an important distinction here that a lot of people aren't getting. This isn't about handing a free ticket to illegal immigrants. This is about stopping the trend to make it so much harder for immigrants in the US. I think it's ironic that so many of us are immigrants, or descended from immigrants, and now we turn around and make it almost impossible for new immigrants to be successful here in the US.
I can see it in my generation. It is a *lot* harder for an immigrant to come in to the US today than it was when my father immigrated (70's). And my family is Indian...currently the highest earning minority population in the US. We make $60k a year...higher than the average for white people. And it's *still* almost impossible for a young computer science engineer type from India to come to the US, look for a job, and make a meaningful contribution while being successful. It just doesn't happen anymore. When my father immigrated, it was fairly normal.
How much harder do you think it is for immigrants who aren't working with computers and other higher-end occupations...?
That's what this is about. We need to go back to being a country that welcomes and accepts immigrants. Indians who immigrated with my father all struggled to learn English, to assimilate, to learn how this country works. Now, Indians who *do* manage to make it to the US are ostracized, disciminated against, and alienated...so often, the ones at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum don't really assimilate very well at all. I'd bet the same applies to Hispanics and other groups.
And for the media coverage...while I'd like to say that it's a good sign, and perhaps our media isn't so incredibly conservative after all, I think the real reason is that so many corporate groups supported the protests. We're talking Walmart, Chicago meat packing industry, unions, everybody. With that kind of corporate backing (corporations have a *lot* to loose if this legislation goes through) how could the press not cover it?
Dave.
I can see it in my generation. It is a *lot* harder for an immigrant to come in to the US today than it was when my father immigrated (70's). And my family is Indian...currently the highest earning minority population in the US. We make $60k a year...higher than the average for white people. And it's *still* almost impossible for a young computer science engineer type from India to come to the US, look for a job, and make a meaningful contribution while being successful. It just doesn't happen anymore. When my father immigrated, it was fairly normal.
How much harder do you think it is for immigrants who aren't working with computers and other higher-end occupations...?
That's what this is about. We need to go back to being a country that welcomes and accepts immigrants. Indians who immigrated with my father all struggled to learn English, to assimilate, to learn how this country works. Now, Indians who *do* manage to make it to the US are ostracized, disciminated against, and alienated...so often, the ones at the lower end of the socio-economic spectrum don't really assimilate very well at all. I'd bet the same applies to Hispanics and other groups.
And for the media coverage...while I'd like to say that it's a good sign, and perhaps our media isn't so incredibly conservative after all, I think the real reason is that so many corporate groups supported the protests. We're talking Walmart, Chicago meat packing industry, unions, everybody. With that kind of corporate backing (corporations have a *lot* to loose if this legislation goes through) how could the press not cover it?
Dave.
halik, you know better
you crazy car guy. I do recall that you speak more than two languages and are no dummy concerning world affairs.Unarmed invades come into the USA primarily from our Sounther border. They meet Corp USA's addiction for cheap labor (addiction to cheap oil is another issue). I could do quite well w/o them here...Thank you.
Germany has been over whelmed with illegal Turks. Greece with Albanians. The chunnel train is being jumped on daily with invaders trying to get into the UK.
Noticing a difference.? Not really. I fired the Mexican lawn service last year and mow & edge my own lawn now
...Galvanized
Haven't you been following the news? All those jobs are back in India now. You see, businesses in America these days no longer value their workers. Human capital is now just another commodity to be exploited. Work goes to the ones willing to do the most work for the smallest amount of pay and benefits. Doesn't matter if it gets done well and properly or not, just that it gets done and sorta works ok.
Agreed. So then why are those jobs in India? Why aren't Indians immigrating to the US to work for a fraction more than they'd make in India, still undercutting what an American software developer would work for?
American businesses value nothing but profits...like all businesses. We know this. So they'll go wherever the money is. And right now, there's money in outsourcing, because you make huge savings.
I think this compounds the problem. The foreign investment that results from outsourcing means that there are some incredible facilities in India now in the IT sector. This makes it that much more likely that serious students and serious IT professionals are staying to train and work in India. There are even immigrants who have flown *back* to India to take jobs there, because they make a little less money in direct conversion (which is a *lot* more real income in India) and they have the advantage of living in a nation that doesn't discriminate against them at all...instead, they're held up as the ideal examples of successful society.
If the United States continues in this direction, how are we hoping to compete in the international markets in anything...least of all in our standards of living? We let the corporations shortchange us on broadband deployment, and now we're the 16th nation in internet reach...when we used to be the first. Japan has 40Mb/s down *and* up connections for $40 a month. Compared with that, where are we?
The United States has been invulnerable for years because we were an economic powerhouse. Now, we've dropped so far behind that we no longer even have the tools to develop a competitive workforce. If you think this doesn't have long-term implications for the economy, you're shortsighted.
Immigrants made this country great. Stop airing your prejudices and insecurities by talking about the immigrants who mow your lawn. Indians in the US are immigrants, too...and we're currently the highest earning minority (averaging $60k, white people average $40k). Indians as an ethnicity have political clout, economic power, and an incredible pool of highly skilled workers, many of whom were trained here in the US. Going further back, the Irish, Swedish, Polish, Spanish...these were some of the populations that really built this country, just as Indians and Chinese immigrants built a significant part of the tech industry that was a mainstay of the US economy in recent years. The University of Chicago has one of the best business schools in the world (perhaps the best) and a *huge* percentage of their students are Indian or Chinese. They're not mowing your lawn or running the taco joint, guys. They're buying and selling you, your jobs, and your economy every day, and their average starting salaries would make most of our heads spin.
Those are the real implications of what's at stake here. Not the Brazilian steakhouse being closed.
Dave.
Cool your jets dchakrab. We are talking apples to oranges.
My sister is upper management for a major HMO and has been a RN for 33 years. She speaks of filapina nurses working double shifts inorder to send money home but offering very poor medical care. What's that about??
ATM she works in medical claims and has to cover far too many mal-practice cases...OK.
I worked as a diesel mechanic for >30 years and had to train undocumented ppl to take jobs they had no real interest in. This harmed the trade and the industry here in SoCal.
The prison population here in SoCal at some facilities is 60%~80% undocumented Hispanics. What's that about??
Unarmed invaders of Hispanic decent commit serious crimes here, then flee for the border. This has been going on for a hundred years Little has changed since the days of Pancho Villa & Gen. Pershing.
IIRC, 20-20 took cameras into Mexico and filmed the Federal police parking lot. Most of the high-end SUVs still had U.S. plates on them. They had been stolen a year or more before. What's that about??
Many Mexicans I've worked with resent the influx of illegals because they get cast with the same light. I'm not that blind.
I have a true respect for legal entries that do much better than I ever did...No lie.
...Galvanized
My sister is upper management for a major HMO and has been a RN for 33 years. She speaks of filapina nurses working double shifts inorder to send money home but offering very poor medical care. What's that about??
ATM she works in medical claims and has to cover far too many mal-practice cases...OK.
I worked as a diesel mechanic for >30 years and had to train undocumented ppl to take jobs they had no real interest in. This harmed the trade and the industry here in SoCal.
The prison population here in SoCal at some facilities is 60%~80% undocumented Hispanics. What's that about??
Unarmed invaders of Hispanic decent commit serious crimes here, then flee for the border. This has been going on for a hundred years
Little has changed since the days of Pancho Villa & Gen. Pershing. IIRC, 20-20 took cameras into Mexico and filmed the Federal police parking lot. Most of the high-end SUVs still had U.S. plates on them. They had been stolen a year or more before. What's that about??
Many Mexicans I've worked with resent the influx of illegals because they get cast with the same light. I'm not that blind.
I have a true respect for legal entries that do much better than I ever did...No lie.
...Galvanized
Originally posted by: GalvanizedYankee
Cool your jets dchakrab. We are talking apples to oranges.
My sister is upper management for a major HMO and has been a RN for 33 years. She speaks of filapina nurses working double shifts inorder to send money home but offering very poor medical care. What's that about??
ATM she works in medical claims and has to cover far too many mal-practice cases...OK.
I worked as a diesel mechanic for >30 years and had to train undocumented ppl to take jobs they had no real interest in. This harmed the trade and the industry here in SoCal.
The prison population here in SoCal at some facilities is 60%~80% undocumented Hispanics. What's that about??
Unarmed invaders of Hispanic decent commit serious crimes here, then flee for the border. This has been going on for a hundred years
IIRC, 20-20 took cameras into Mexico and filmed the Federal police parking lot. Most of the high-end SUVs still had U.S. plates on them. They had been stolen a year or more before. What's that about??
Many Mexicans I've worked with resent the influx of illegals because they get cast with the same light. I'm not that blind.
I have a true respect for legal entries that do much better than I ever did...No lie.
...Galvanized
Galvanized,
You make good points, and it supports what I'm saying. We seem to agree (at least) that there is a huge distinction between various levels of "immigrant" ...ranging from the highly skilled or highly talented to the low-skilled and unambitious.
The reason I think this is important is that our current policies and social tendencies are going to result in increasing numbers of the latter, and is already showing decreasing numbers of the former.
Dave.
Originally posted by: OrByte
where have you been all day long??
The boycott was organized by immigrant activists angered by federal legislation that would criminalize an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants and fortify the U.S-Mexico border.
From that article...
Criminalize...
Illegal Immigrants...
Right...
OrByte
Diamond Member
- Jul 21, 2000
- 9,303
- 144
- 106
Originally posted by: SoylentG
Originally posted by: OrByte
where have you been all day long??
The boycott was organized by immigrant activists angered by federal legislation that would criminalize an estimated 11 million illegal immigrants and fortify the U.S-Mexico border.
From that article...
Criminalize...
Illegal Immigrants...
Right...
what is your point?....
I think his point was an attempt at sarcasm, indicating that illegal immigrants are already criminals.
If people stepped back and thought about the word "criminalize" they might understand more of what's at stake here.
Dave.
If people stepped back and thought about the word "criminalize" they might understand more of what's at stake here.
Dave.
D-Man
Platinum Member
- Oct 18, 1999
- 2,991
- 0
- 71
I understand the word criminalize very well. Illegal pretty well also. My vocabulary includes words like Sovereign Nation, Border Crossing, Illegial Alien, Did I say Illegal?
I guess when you cross the border of a Sovereign Nation without permission and get phony SS Cards and Identification fill out a job application with phony information Phony Drivers Lisense and on and on and on we should not use harsh words to describe this action. Maybe we could find a kinder gentler word. Lets see Thief na to harsh How about Hostages no thats what they tried on us Hold us Hostage and Demanders yep lets call them Undocumented Demanders
I take it back IILEGAL really describes these people
I guess when you cross the border of a Sovereign Nation without permission and get phony SS Cards and Identification fill out a job application with phony information Phony Drivers Lisense and on and on and on we should not use harsh words to describe this action. Maybe we could find a kinder gentler word. Lets see Thief na to harsh How about Hostages no thats what they tried on us Hold us Hostage and Demanders yep lets call them Undocumented Demanders
I take it back IILEGAL really describes these people
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