Dave Ramsey article on Pocket

[highland145]

FWIW, Dave Ramsey is worth $200 million dollars:

That's a lot of coupon clipping.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Ahhh the good old days when SNL actually had content worth a shit.

 

[Kaido]

Its a psychological thing. You pay off the smaller ones first because they’re easier and give you a sense of accomplishment.

This is the same approach I recommend to people trying to get in shape. I made my first serious effort to lose weight back in 2008 (there's a thread somewhere here lol) and I had NO IDEA what I was doing. Soooo much wrong information. No idea about macros. No simple, structured daily workout program to follow. What I recommend now is:

1. Get to your ideal bodyweight (whether that's gaining or losing weight) by using brisk cardio (work up to 30 minutes a day, optionally in three 10-minute daily sessions, even if it means just starting out with a 60-second daily exercise session, which is where I've had friends start at!) & IIFYM (using meal-prepping as a way to make it convenient)

2. Build up a foundation of strength (ex. pushup program) so that your body can get healthy & be supported, continuing with macros

3. Maintain that for life (macros-based meal-prep & daily workout routine), optionally adding advanced workout routines to your personal goals (ex. for sports, weightlifting, calisthenics, etc.) if you want to do more than just stay healthy & keep in-shape

The problem is that we tend to get lost in the motion of doing stuff on a daily basis, our efforts get diffused, and we don't end up with the results we want. Which is why having a 6-pack of abs can land you on the cover of magazines, because it's so rare to actually be proactively consistent at simple things in life! The same thing applies to finances...people need a clear path forward for being successful & pretty much having any strategy is better than no strategy! Especially if you can start small, wrap your mind around it, and actually do it on a regular basis, which is why the snowball effect works for so many people...it's not the most optimized solution, but if they stick with it & it gets the job done for them, then they can enjoy success!

 

[Kaido]

That's a lot of coupon clipping.

"If you want to ride in the bus, sell to the people who ride in the limo. If you want to ride in the limo, sell to the people who ride the bus!"

 

[Zorba]

The stuff he pushes, all the books, other hosts are annoying, but I called his auto insurance service and actually saved $1000. I’m sure it’s because select quote was screwing me but still.

I'm not saying any of it is bad, and things like the insurance companies and books don't bother me. His pushing of his realtor and finical advisor community really bothers me though. To get into those networks you just give him a big kickback, which isn't disclosed, and he acts. Like they have gone through special vetting and training.

He obviously also pushes insurance, but he's advise on insurance is still quite sound and he pushes quoting websites, not a specific company, which is why it doesn't bother me.

 

[paperfist]

I'm not saying any of it is bad, and things like the insurance companies and books don't bother me. His pushing of his realtor and finical advisor community really bothers me though. To get into those networks you just give him a big kickback, which isn't disclosed, and he acts. Like they have gone through special vetting and training.

He obviously also pushes insurance, but he's advise on insurance is still quite sound and he pushes quoting websites, not a specific company, which is why it doesn't bother me.

Oh right, that stuff is kind of fishy. He just uses his position to funnel people to his targeted realtors and investors. Most of the people he does that to probabbly don't have a clue it's not real his company doing the advising.

I just said the insurance thing because all those commercials claim they'll save you $600 and my quotes were always higher so I was pleasantly surprised that the Ramsey one wasn't.

 

[Zorba]

Oh right, that stuff is kind of fishy. He just uses his position to funnel people to his targeted realtors and investors. Most of the people he does that to probabbly don't have a clue it's not real his company doing the advising.

I just said the insurance thing because all those commercials claim they'll save you $600 and my quotes were always higher so I was pleasantly surprised that the Ramsey one wasn't.

The insurance companies always say "The average person who switches saved $600."

In general people don't switch insurance unless it's cheaper.

 

[highland145]

The insurance companies always say "The average person who switches saved $600."

In general people don't switch insurance unless it's cheaper.

The average person doesn't switch because it's a PITA. Got off my lazy ass, booted State Farm after 30 years and saved $800/yr. SF's response......


Eff them after 30 years of premiums. And Eff me for being so lazy and dumb. Have changed the company truck insurance 3 times in the last 4 years. Progressive, now, and $100 cheaper than the Hartford.

 

[paperfist]

The average person doesn't switch because it's a PITA. Got off my lazy ass, booted State Farm after 30 years and saved $800/yr. SF's response......


Eff them after 30 years of premiums. And Eff me for being so lazy and dumb. Have changed the company truck insurance 3 times in the last 4 years. Progressive, now, and $100 cheaper than the Hartford.

I guess I was being lazy too. I was using Select Quote to 'find' me a better rate each year. That's a no go. I just figured auto rates were stupid dumb like everything else till one day I heard Ramsey on the radio and used the internet for something other than porn and sent out an email request for a quote and viola stupid savings are mine!

This is the same approach I recommend to people trying to get in shape. I made my first serious effort to lose weight back in 2008 (there's a thread somewhere here lol) and I had NO IDEA what I was doing. Soooo much wrong information. No idea about macros. No simple, structured daily workout program to follow. What I recommend now is:

1. Get to your ideal bodyweight (whether that's gaining or losing weight) by using brisk cardio (work up to 30 minutes a day, optionally in three 10-minute daily sessions, even if it means just starting out with a 60-second daily exercise session, which is where I've had friends start at!) & IIFYM (using meal-prepping as a way to make it convenient)

2. Build up a foundation of strength (ex. pushup program) so that your body can get healthy & be supported, continuing with macros

3. Maintain that for life (macros-based meal-prep & daily workout routine), optionally adding advanced workout routines to your personal goals (ex. for sports, weightlifting, calisthenics, etc.) if you want to do more than just stay healthy & keep in-shape

The problem is that we tend to get lost in the motion of doing stuff on a daily basis, our efforts get diffused, and we don't end up with the results we want. Which is why having a 6-pack of abs can land you on the cover of magazines, because it's so rare to actually be proactively consistent at simple things in life! The same thing applies to finances...people need a clear path forward for being successful & pretty much having any strategy is better than no strategy! Especially if you can start small, wrap your mind around it, and actually do it on a regular basis, which is why the snowball effect works for so many people...it's not the most optimized solution, but if they stick with it & it gets the job done for them, then they can enjoy success!

Yep, I guess that old saying don't try to eat an elephant in one sitting holds true for weight loss too Weight loss is muddled in even more marketing then money. It's kind of amazing how complicated a marketer can twist things and people into believing it has to be difficult and cost a lot to work.

Your #1 about meal prepping is great! I just watched my niece drop 40 pounds by planning ahead.

 

[Lanyap]

only 1 or 2 people in my family have moved more than 50 miles away in 150 years

can't marry anybody cuz i'm related to everybody

You're Ok if you are in the South and they are at least a 2nd cousin.

 

[Zorba]

You're Ok if you are in the South and they are at least a 2nd cousin.

Problem is in the south most people think a first cousin once removed is actually a second cousin. Sucks when the judge says no on your wedding day.

 

[Kaido]

Yep, I guess that old saying don't try to eat an elephant in one sitting holds true for weight loss too Weight loss is muddled in even more marketing then money. It's kind of amazing how complicated a marketer can twist things and people into believing it has to be difficult and cost a lot to work.

Your #1 about meal prepping is great! I just watched my niece drop 40 pounds by planning ahead.

It all boils down to a human nature default setting I call the "Immediacy Fallacy". This is where our brain believes three things

1. The task is monolithic
2. It must all be done right now
3. It must be done perfectly

I think it's just because (1) our brains operate in real-time (not much in the way of future planning, because we forget stuff easily), and (2) we have variable physical & mental energy levels (meaning it's easy to lose motivation & not care about it anymore tomorrow), so it's easy to say "screw it" lol. So we end up trapped financially & being overweight. 80% of Americans are in debt & 73% of Americans are overweight. One of the reasons I always spam this link is because weight loss is incredibly easy if you know how things work...you don't have to starve yourself, you don't have to give up your favorite foods, you can still eat junk food (I eat dessert pretty much every single day), and yet you can get in shape & have high energy 24/7 if you're willing to learn & apply the basic, simple, free principles:

https://www.reddit.com/r/bodyweightfitness/comments/d0rxv6/_/ezebxg9

No special foods, no supplements to buy, just some really really basic operational guidelines. Quick success story time - one of my buddies finally internalized this information & adopted it & he's down nearly 75 pounds as of last week. Particularly in the world of IT where we tend to sit around at a desk all day & cave to simple carbs for energy due to sometimes weird work hours, being overweight is not only commonplace, but becomes an identity & then a blindspot. I've been overweight twice in my life by 50+ pounds each time. I had no idea what I was doing the first time around...I was a beanpole growing up, got married, got a desktop, and ballooned up, took ownership of the situation, ate a lot of chicken & broccoli, got in shape, and boy was it horrible lol. Eventually my motivation wore off, gained the weight back, and then got back off it thanks to macros. Then I started speeding the process along with the Instapot & Sous Vide machines just to make my food taste better & be less of a hassle to make, which is a huge reason I love kitchen gadgets...I can eat healthy, at home, for cheap, make it taste really good, hit my macros, be in shape, AND have high-energy! It's like win/win/win lol.

Anyway, I've since adopted a strong personal productivity system that is the exact opposite of the Immediacy Fallacy:

1. The task can be broken down into small bites-size piece
2. Those bite-sized pieces can be spread out over time
3. We don't have to be perfect at the work & can even audit the quality of our work to be good/better/best (ex. sometimes a microwave hotdog fits the bill for dinner when your mental energy for dealing with things is low)

It all boils down to (1) defining what we want, and (2) setting up a system to support that. Productivity author James Clear has a great quote on that:

"You do not rise to the level of your goals. You fall to the level of your systems."

This is why I got so interested in making my own personal finance system & meal-prepping system. Sustained effort is a really tricky behavior to adopt for things that require effort, and I simply can't rely on my motivation & willpower to be available all day every day, which means I'm going to eventually cave to whatever the most convenient path is. With meal-prep, most of the time I carry around a big, insulated lunchbox full of delicious meals that hits my macros. That way I hit my weight-maintenance goals, I hit the flavor button so I don't get fast-food or vending machine snacks, I save a TON of money over eating out all the time (bought a Mustang with all the money I saved every month!), and I get to feel good from sun up to sun down. The sacrifice is that I have to use a system, one that includes doing some easy but minor-hassle tasks like meal-prepping & counting numbers, but the overall total combined payoff is so much better it's not even funny lol.

The problem is, of course, that we collectively hate minor hassles. We all want the overnight get-rich-quick scheme, not the long-haul lifestyle change, even if that change is pretty minor. One of the math examples I like to use is how I currently handle meal-prep:

1. I schedule my meal-prep out once a week for about 10 minutes. I pick out what I'm going to cook each night (as a chore, separately from my meals) & make a shopping list.
2. I go shopping for whatever I need that I don't have at home.
3. I have an alarm on my phone to do meal-prep every day. Target window is 20 minutes of effort. I try to use my Instant Pot & Magic Sous-Vide Oven to do the bulk of the work whenever possible.
4. One meal-prep meal typically generates an average of 6 servings. One batch of 6 servings a day times 30 days in a month = 180 servings in my pantry, fridge, and freezer every month for hardly any daily time investment.

We get about 16 hours or roughly 1,000 minutes of waking time each, so 20 minutes out of that isn't a big deal. The problem always go back to dealing with minor hassles, because as human beings, we really really hate those lol. That's why I like to split up the planning & shopping portions of meal-prepping, that way I only have to do a little bit every day & then end up with a daily alarm, a pre-selected meal to prep, a recipe ready to go, and all of the ingredients already purchased so I'm not rummaging for ideas & hoping I have what I need instead of confidently knowing I have what I need.

Honestly, just eating consistently has been one of the biggest boosts in my lifestyle. My typical routine was pretty garbage...I'd run out the door without breakfast, grab some junk for lunch (McDonalds, snacks from the local gas station, etc.), then have to figure out dinner every day. Then I would wonder why I had low energy & poor focus LOL. The two questions I ask people who are interested in meal-prepping or productivity in general are:

1. Are you happy with your results?
2. Do you want more?

imo diffusion is the greatest enemy to productivity, i.e. getting stuff done. We tend to spin up stories in our mind that cloud the simplicity of how life really operates & then don't get the results we want. And that can be an incredibly difficult thing to do, to clear away that fog, because we run out of energy & motivation & focus as time passes & just kind of go back to our default systems in life. Which is why adopting systems that have minor hassles are often the most powerful, i.e. cook a meal every day & chuck it in your freezer, or track your daily spending & have a simple, basic spreadsheet of fixed & variable expenses. Most people who struggle with the big stuff skip out on the basics, which is where the real power is. I've learned that everything in life is pretty much just an illusion, a veneer, hiding a simple checklist of operation behind it.

It's the same deal with computers...as IT enthusiasts, we understand that all computers boil down to just seven components (case, power supply, motherboard, processor, memory, boot drive, and video card), no matter what type of "computer" it is (a desktop, a laptop, a tablet, a smartphone, a smart TV player, etc.), but to people who don't understand the simplicity of the checklist of operation, it's like a combination of magic & rocket science. And then, of course, you run into people who are just totally unrealistic about the operational nature of the systems & buy their kid a $349 desktop from Walmart & are upset that they can't play the latest Call of Duty on it & don't want to hear that they need to buy a decent video card to get that level of performance.

That attitude is something I've been working on overcoming in myself over the last few years, because I've discovered that I cut myself off from a lot of the goodness in life simply from the bogus story I tell myself about how I think something works. As Wayne Gretzky said, you miss 100% of the shots you don't take! So many people gloss right over things like macros without putting on their gold-digging hat & working through the hassle to adopt the treasure into their lives. I know this post has gotten a bit long-winded, but pretty much just being willing to "dig for gold" & unearth the checklist behind the mask of life for various things, whether it be computers or getting in shape & having lots of energy with macros, has been one of the biggest benefits in my life in recent memory. That approach sort of changed my whole perspective about how the universe works in terms of actions & consequences & about my relationship with how I wanted to do things, i.e. turning off my brain & eating blindly & gaining fifty pounds vs. taking responsibility for my situation & making a commitment to use a simple meal-prep plan to hit my macros daily in order to feel good & look good!

Anyway, we all like our illusions haha. The trick is being willing to get past them & adopt better default systems in order to get what we really want!

 

[Red Squirrel]

IMO the only debt that is ok is a mortgage, since it's pretty hard to buy a house cash. But yeah I pretty much agree with Ramsey's philosophy as far as avoiding debt as much as you can.

I have a hard time feeling bad for people calling in with like 100k of student debt and they can't find a job with their liberal arts six sigma PHD. After you are 10k in student debt with no job prospect in sight and you've already spent 3 years of your life at it, it's time to take a step back, and perhaps reevaluate your life. Not just keep sinking more and more money into more courses thinking some magical 6 figure job is going to pop up.

I did a mistake myself when I bought my truck, I really should not have blown 14k on a vehicle, when I could have gotten a regular car for like <5k which would be cheaper on gas and cheaper on insurance. I really wanted the truck though, so that's what I got, but reality is I could have been ok with just getting a hitch and trailer for the car. I don't really need to towing capacity of a F150 to carry 10-20 sheets of plywood or drywall from Home Depot.

I'm down to 9k now so paying it down a bit at a time, but I had to reduce my mortgage payment to the minimum to get the credit line to actually move.

I'm sure if I called him he'd just tell me I was an idiot for spending that kind of money on that rusty Ford.

 

[Scarpozzi]

IMO the only debt that is ok is a mortgage, since it's pretty hard to buy a house cash. But yeah I pretty much agree with Ramsey's philosophy as far as avoiding debt as much as you can.

I have a hard time feeling bad for people calling in with like 100k of student debt and they can't find a job with their liberal arts six sigma PHD. After you are 10k in student debt with no job prospect in sight and you've already spent 3 years of your life at it, it's time to take a step back, and perhaps reevaluate your life. Not just keep sinking more and more money into more courses thinking some magical 6 figure job is going to pop up.

I did a mistake myself when I bought my truck, I really should not have blown 14k on a vehicle, when I could have gotten a regular car for like <5k which would be cheaper on gas and cheaper on insurance. I really wanted the truck though, so that's what I got, but reality is I could have been ok with just getting a hitch and trailer for the car. I don't really need to towing capacity of a F150 to carry 10-20 sheets of plywood or drywall from Home Depot.

I'm down to 9k now so paying it down a bit at a time, but I had to reduce my mortgage payment to the minimum to get the credit line to actually move.

I'm sure if I called him he'd just tell me I was an idiot for spending that kind of money on that rusty Ford.

Financial advice is always laced with generalizations. NOTHING is one-size fits all....this is the problem with Dave Ramsey and anyone else.

The reason it's so whack is because our pyramid of needs costs different amounts based on location and our various income levels...not to mention how many individuals live from that income. If you lived in Aruba, you'd be paying through the nose for groceries....in Cali, you're going to be paying a bunch for your 1500 sq ft ranch-style house. Depending on what your profession is, you may struggle to make payments on anything. If you're eating cheap food versus steak every night....or worse....if you don't cook and spend money on restaurants....you're throwing a ton of money away.

I think making a purchase on a vehicle is fine as long as you're all about paying it off and driving it for its useful life (instead of eating the depreciation and then trading the asset in for $2k or less...which may even be less than the dealership's markup on the next vehicle you buy). Buying one car is usually not what gets people in trouble...it's when they compound that bad decision every other year and start financing their depreciation losses.

As I said....if you make six figures and have low expenses, Dave Ramsey has great advice for you. If you're making less and trying to get ahead....avoid interest, set goals, make sure you're saving money (10-15% of income) before you spend anything....if you can't do that, try to make small changes to do what's possible. When you're young, you have time.....the longer you wait, the harder things will get. Amazon.com don't hire greeters.

 

[Fritzo]

Ramsey and Suze Orman = financial advisers for "should have know better" folks...ie..."don't spend more than what you make".

One more thing, I don't like how Ramsey made blanket statements about credit cards as bad. If you can handle credit cards properly, you can get a lot of benefits such as price protection, car rental insurance, etc. or even make money. Yes, make money from credit cards as in cash back/rebate.

Yeah, Ramsey struck it rich with the typical "You can be successful by telling other people how to be successful" method, and some of his early stuff makes sense, but now he's just going all over the place trying to capture or reinvent things he's already said. A lot of times he goes off the rails. Reminds me of a supergroup that keeps releasing remastered versions of their hit albums.

 

[Fritzo]

IMO the only debt that is ok is a mortgage, since it's pretty hard to buy a house cash. But yeah I pretty much agree with Ramsey's philosophy as far as avoiding debt as much as you can.

I have a hard time feeling bad for people calling in with like 100k of student debt and they can't find a job with their liberal arts six sigma PHD. After you are 10k in student debt with no job prospect in sight and you've already spent 3 years of your life at it, it's time to take a step back, and perhaps reevaluate your life. Not just keep sinking more and more money into more courses thinking some magical 6 figure job is going to pop up.

I did a mistake myself when I bought my truck, I really should not have blown 14k on a vehicle, when I could have gotten a regular car for like <5k which would be cheaper on gas and cheaper on insurance. I really wanted the truck though, so that's what I got, but reality is I could have been ok with just getting a hitch and trailer for the car. I don't really need to towing capacity of a F150 to carry 10-20 sheets of plywood or drywall from Home Depot.

I'm down to 9k now so paying it down a bit at a time, but I had to reduce my mortgage payment to the minimum to get the credit line to actually move.

I'm sure if I called him he'd just tell me I was an idiot for spending that kind of money on that rusty Ford.

Tired of that "100K and liberal arts" trope. It's not true- like 17% of college degrees are in liberal arts, and their debt load is generally under $30K. I get angry that it takes 10-15 YEARS to pay off the loans to become a doctor, engineer, lawyer, accountant, and other career level positions. People in their early 20's shouldn't be starting life with the equivalent of a house mortgage. The US has fallen to #27 in education because we have public primary, middle, and high schools, but no public college option (as most other 1st world countries do). Not sure why we give Americans the opportunity to get 2/3 of an education and then decide to make them go into debt if they want to qualify for a career job.

Sorry for the rant. Sensitive subject that really needs to be fixed.

 

[sdifox]

IMO the only debt that is ok is a mortgage, since it's pretty hard to buy a house cash. But yeah I pretty much agree with Ramsey's philosophy as far as avoiding debt as much as you can.

I have a hard time feeling bad for people calling in with like 100k of student debt and they can't find a job with their liberal arts six sigma PHD. After you are 10k in student debt with no job prospect in sight and you've already spent 3 years of your life at it, it's time to take a step back, and perhaps reevaluate your life. Not just keep sinking more and more money into more courses thinking some magical 6 figure job is going to pop up.

I did a mistake myself when I bought my truck, I really should not have blown 14k on a vehicle, when I could have gotten a regular car for like <5k which would be cheaper on gas and cheaper on insurance. I really wanted the truck though, so that's what I got, but reality is I could have been ok with just getting a hitch and trailer for the car. I don't really need to towing capacity of a F150 to carry 10-20 sheets of plywood or drywall from Home Depot.

I'm down to 9k now so paying it down a bit at a time, but I had to reduce my mortgage payment to the minimum to get the credit line to actually move.

I'm sure if I called him he'd just tell me I was an idiot for spending that kind of money on that rusty Ford.

You are an idiot for buying that truck on credit.

No need to call Ramsey.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Tired of that "100K and liberal arts" trope. It's not true- like 17% of college degrees are in liberal arts, and their debt load is generally under $30K. I get angry that it takes 10-15 YEARS to pay off the loans to become a doctor, engineer, lawyer, accountant, and other career level positions. People in their early 20's shouldn't be starting life with the equivalent of a house mortgage. The US has fallen to #27 in education because we have public primary, middle, and high schools, but no public college option (as most other 1st world countries do). Not sure why we give Americans the opportunity to get 2/3 of an education and then decide to make them go into debt if they want to qualify for a career job.

Sorry for the rant. Sensitive subject that really needs to be fixed.

What makes me laugh the most is certain political folks that think we need to forgive student loan debt. You want to talk about a HUUUUUUUGE giveaway to the rich and completely dumping on the lower and middle class lol...

But anyhow as far as "public college" aren't community colleges locally subsidized? At least on my property taxes a fat chunk goes to the local community college, not sure how that is across the US.

The stigma against community college is part of the reason were in this mess and shows a reflection of how stupid they are teaching our kids in high school to think that a state university is needed to take basic courses.



Anyhow, I'm all for major reforms - the problem is that we have to be sensible about it.

1) Stop all government subsidized student loans without strict requirements. Also, stop basing it on parental income. Whether someone wants to get a doctorate or not should have no bearing on if the government subsidizes or not. It's literally an investment for the entire country.
2) I'm fine with making college free to kids - the problem is having the sensibility of only covering certain degrees that are in our interest, have a reasonable job market, etc.. etc... Again, this is an investment, not a "nice to have" or "I think it will be fun!"

In fact, I'm honestly more concerned with the lower and middle class that are the first ones on the chopping block with automation. We need free training programs around jobs that aren't going to go away anytime soon such as plumbing, electric work, HVAC work, carpentry, etc...


Lastly, these are supposed to be prestigious places known for academics... Not "safe spaces" and a cool place to hang out between school and the real world.... and nor is a main attraction supposed to fucking sports teams. Instead of teaching institutes they are social hangouts, marketing, and coddling factories. See the below graph - school faculty has remained overall pretty stagnant, while the staff has sky-rocketed. Want to know why college tuition is up so much?




I highly recommend anyone here read The Coddling of the American Mind that shows how drastically our colleges and kids have changed from previous - and shows the alarming measures as to why these changes are a massive problem.

https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897

Good read/summary about it here: https://hiddenforces.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/EP58RD.pdf

 

[Scarpozzi]

Tired of that "100K and liberal arts" trope. It's not true- like 17% of college degrees are in liberal arts, and their debt load is generally under $30K. I get angry that it takes 10-15 YEARS to pay off the loans to become a doctor, engineer, lawyer, accountant, and other career level positions. People in their early 20's shouldn't be starting life with the equivalent of a house mortgage. The US has fallen to #27 in education because we have public primary, middle, and high schools, but no public college option (as most other 1st world countries do). Not sure why we give Americans the opportunity to get 2/3 of an education and then decide to make them go into debt if they want to qualify for a career job.

Sorry for the rant. Sensitive subject that really needs to be fixed.

Frtizo...read my comment about living expenses. When students go to universities in the US, they choose schools based on various decisions...prestige of the university, geographical location, occasionally programs offered. You can go to a community college and get 2 years for cheap or free a lot of the time if you make the grades, then transfer to a 4 year and get out owing very little....or none if you work through and get scholarships. OR.....you can go to a major 4 year in a big city or a few states away (paying Out of state tuition) and finance your living expenses along with your education... It's very possible to go down that path and rack up $20k+ annually and either flunk out with no degree or get a degree that has no real job path just because it's easy or interesting.

I agree with what you're saying pertaining to the $150k+ med school or law school route. It's kind of like, more risk to get more reward, but waaay later. It's actually one of the biggest divides because those from wealthy families have more access and family experience navigating university and career education decisions.

My cousin's wife is probably 7-8 years older than me. She came from a wealthy family....finished her ug degree in secondary education on scholarship only to end up going to law school. She got a job as a lawyer and made near 6 figures for a number of years...then switched in to HR/Law for corporations and now government making 6 figures....but she STILL has college debt. I'm sorry, but the decision to buy a bigger house or new cars or new clothes or take trips....those are all decisions. I had my wife pay her $95k of college debt out of grad school in 3 years because interest was 7.5% at the time...6.5% after the first year.

I'm torn because I wish student loans could only cover specific expenses not to exceed X....basically use student loans to force on-campus housing to be cheaper/rent-controlled....because schools shouldn't be in the business of making money on housing as well as tuition.... I'd also like to see student loan interest be subsidized for the first X years....then start increasing by 1% point each year after so many. The point is.....incentivize paying that stuff off so people actually make it a priority. Got college debt? Don't go buy new car just yet.... My wife drove her 2000 Honda Civic until she paid her loans off.

Part of the problem with our education system is the parents don't seem to care as much anymore...and those that do are just bitching because their kids are getting low grades. If they complain enough, teachers and administration dumb down the courses. My daughter is leaps and bounds above her classmates because they have to teach to the lowest common denominator. It's a bad system because she's bored half of the time. I think in other countries/systems, they let kids work ahead so they don't get bored and bogged down while others catch up.

 

[Fritzo]

What makes me laugh the most is certain political folks that think we need to forgive student loan debt. You want to talk about a HUUUUUUUGE giveaway to the rich and completely dumping on the lower and middle class lol...

But anyhow as far as "public college" aren't community colleges locally subsidized? At least on my property taxes a fat chunk goes to the local community college, not sure how that is across the US.

The stigma against community college is part of the reason were in this mess and shows a reflection of how stupid they are teaching our kids in high school to think that a state university is needed to take basic courses.



Anyhow, I'm all for major reforms - the problem is that we have to be sensible about it.

1) Stop all government subsidized student loans without strict requirements. Also, stop basing it on parental income. Whether someone wants to get a doctorate or not should have no bearing on if the government subsidizes or not. It's literally an investment for the entire country.
2) I'm fine with making college free to kids - the problem is having the sensibility of only covering certain degrees that are in our interest, have a reasonable job market, etc.. etc... Again, this is an investment, not a "nice to have" or "I think it will be fun!"

In fact, I'm honestly more concerned with the lower and middle class that are the first ones on the chopping block with automation. We need free training programs around jobs that aren't going to go away anytime soon such as plumbing, electric work, HVAC work, carpentry, etc...


Lastly, these are supposed to be prestigious places known for academics... Not "safe spaces" and a cool place to hang out between school and the real world.... and nor is a main attraction supposed to fucking sports teams. Instead of teaching institutes they are social hangouts, marketing, and coddling factories. See the below graph - school faculty has remained overall pretty stagnant, while the staff has sky-rocketed. Want to know why college tuition is up so much?
View attachment 43865



I highly recommend anyone here read The Coddling of the American Mind that shows how drastically our colleges and kids have changed from previous - and shows the alarming measures as to why these changes are a massive problem.

https://www.amazon.com/Coddling-American-Mind-Intentions-Generation/dp/0735224897

Good read/summary about it here: https://hiddenforces.io/wp-content/uploads/2019/05/EP58RD.pdf

Community colleges are not subsidized---the 2 year colleges we have in NW Ohio are now up to $2000-$3000 per quarter. My son's university bill is $6000+ a quarter for Business Administration. Even with a 65% scholarship it's expensive. My wife is basically working to put him through school. You shouldn't need to buy something so expensive to gain the right to a career. When I went to school in the early 90's, college was about $1800 a year, and I could easily cover it with a part time job at $7.50 an hour. There's no chance for someone to pay off $18000 a year these days with even a full time starter job while going to school.

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

Community colleges are not subsidized---the 2 year colleges we have in NW Ohio are now up to $2000-$3000 per quarter. My son's university bill is $6000+ a quarter for Business Administration. Even with a 65% scholarship it's expensive. My wife is basically working to put him through school. You shouldn't need to buy something so expensive to gain the right to a career. When I went to school in the early 90's, college was about $1800 a year, and I could easily cover it with a part time job at $7.50 an hour. There's no chance for someone to pay off $18000 a year these days with even a full time starter job while going to school.

And to that I say...


Also, this video can help answer some of the complex discussion concerning the costs of college

 

[sdifox]

Community colleges are not subsidized---the 2 year colleges we have in NW Ohio are now up to $2000-$3000 per quarter. My son's university bill is $6000+ a quarter for Business Administration. Even with a 65% scholarship it's expensive. My wife is basically working to put him through school. You shouldn't need to buy something so expensive to gain the right to a career. When I went to school in the early 90's, college was about $1800 a year, and I could easily cover it with a part time job at $7.50 an hour. There's no chance for someone to pay off $18000 a year these days with even a full time starter job while going to school.

U of T is around 8k a year.

 

[ponyo]

Community colleges are not subsidized---the 2 year colleges we have in NW Ohio are now up to $2000-$3000 per quarter. My son's university bill is $6000+ a quarter for Business Administration. Even with a 65% scholarship it's expensive. My wife is basically working to put him through school. You shouldn't need to buy something so expensive to gain the right to a career. When I went to school in the early 90's, college was about $1800 a year, and I could easily cover it with a part time job at $7.50 an hour. There's no chance for someone to pay off $18000 a year these days with even a full time starter job while going to school.

$6k+ a quarter tuition seems high for public. That's $18k+ a year in tuition. My daughter will start UGA in the fall and the annual tuition and fees for in state resident is around $6k a semester or $12k a year. Room and board will probably add another $12k or so, and I'm figuring about another $8k a year for other expenses and spending. So my estimate is about $34k a year for everything.

What is your son going to do with Business Administration degree?

 

[s0me0nesmind1]

I hate Bus. Admin majors. It's the ultimate in "I like business but don't know what I want to do with it" degree.

Christ, pick a lane already. I guess maybe if you want to go to law school after then it's fine.

 

[Torn Mind]

Community colleges are not subsidized---the 2 year colleges we have in NW Ohio are now up to $2000-$3000 per quarter. My son's university bill is $6000+ a quarter for Business Administration. Even with a 65% scholarship it's expensive. My wife is basically working to put him through school. You shouldn't need to buy something so expensive to gain the right to a career. When I went to school in the early 90's, college was about $1800 a year, and I could easily cover it with a part time job at $7.50 an hour. There's no chance for someone to pay off $18000 a year these days with even a full time starter job while going to school.

My local college charges rates right down to the county level.

2,661 dollars for 15 credit hours for county residents
5,127 for 15 credit hours and person is a in-state resident
7,017 for 15 credit hours and person is out-of-state resident.