Daughter sues parent for College Tuition and wins.

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Ruptga

Lifer
Aug 3, 2006
10,246
207
106
Yes you do. You said it yourself, just in different terms. You were flat broke, and it sucked. It made you understand and appreciate money, if for no other reason than having it meant that you were not flat broke. It also gave you something to strive for . . . i.e., to "not" be dead fucking broke. Nothing in else in life provides that type of motivation better than struggling to make ends meet on your own.

On the other side of the coin, a significant fraction of the difficulties on this planet exist specifically because people preaching that philosophy create problems "to build character." Life may never be completely fair, but that's no excuse to make things worse or stand in the way of improving them.

Besides that, suffering and poverty are relative. How much is enough to build sufficient character? Is it really possible to appreciate a good meal without watching your siblings die of starvation?
 
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doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
1
0
Yes you do. You said it yourself, just in different terms. You were flat broke, and it sucked. It made you understand and appreciate money, if for no other reason than having it meant that you were not flat broke. It also gave you something to strive for . . . i.e., to "not" be dead fucking broke. Nothing in else in life provides that type of motivation better than struggling to make ends meet on your own.

I will partially concede the point but I think I am a special case. I made 6 figures within 90 days of graduation. By my second year I had the contacts and the luck to own my own company and make a boatload of money. I don't think it would have been the same if I had to struggle and struggle for much longer. I sacrificed way too much and had very little left to give. I had no money, no relationship, no material goods, and only walked away with a diploma and luckily some good contacts. Really, I got lucky. I don't think most people would end up in the same place as me so then what you're left with is a college graduate, with lots of debt, and having to spend many more years poor before getting somewhere. I then got even more lucky when I looked at the financial meltdown in the US, cashed in my chips, and left. Lots of my friends were doing great but then had to start over for a second time due to their houses going way upside down and their salaries being cut. That would have killed me. I count my blessings.

Nobody should have to struggle that way if there are other options. It's one thing to understand the value of money but I was so pissed off by the time I graduated that I was afraid to even spend money. I bought a car and bought clothes but it took years before I was comfortable spending money in a healthy way. Way too difficult.

We have a financial aid system in place but the costs are now so high that student loan debt is out of control. I pity the millennials and will do what I must to make sure my kids aren't saddled with debt. You don't need to be poor or have excessive amounts of debt to understand the value of money. You should learn the value of money by simply working for it. I worked for mine but there was no way I could work enough to pay for my own school. Today it's even worse. At least that's what I believe after what I went through.
 

zerocool84

Lifer
Nov 11, 2004
36,041
472
126
To me, it doesn't matter if the parents make 20k or 200k, being forced to pay for college is just retarded.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
There must be more to the story, however it sounds as if the judge must grant the spoiled brat $16,000 tuition per year due to the retarded state law.

A related story. A friend mine and her husband who are now physician specialists. They got where they are due to the retarded law that divorced parents must pay for theirs child tuition. Both of them worked less than 3 months in their lives prior to the completion of theirs med school. She took her parents for a tuition ride to her PhD in biology and med school (total around 14 years). He took his parents for a a tuition ride to a master of mechanical engineering, plus 5-6 years of premed, and med school (15-16 years of tuition). The combine cash that they got from their parents is well over $200,000 CAD, and they owed and additional $400,000 in student loans. I don't think that they received any money from their parents for the specialist training.
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Read through this hypocritical bullshit that the mom wrote on her blog.

After her mom married again to someone who was probably rich Caitlyn basically was nothing more than "objectified success" to her parents and put into lots of "success programs" when she was in school. And when you get to her life after 18 you basically find out that her parents used money that she would need for schooling to threaten her into allowing them to control everything in her life even though she was legally adult and they had no more legal control over her. She was basically made to live as a legal adult in a freedom-restricted "blue law" environment that was run by religious type value platforms.

The ones with entitlement are the parents who think that their kids exist only to serve their psychological and conspicuous societal needs. They seem to not want to need to do real parenting and understand how to raise kids with real souls and emotions.

http://mcgarvey24.wordpress.com/2014/11/06/the-age-of-entitlement/
 
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norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
On the other side of the coin, a significant fraction of the difficulties on this planet exist specifically because people preaching that philosophy create problems "to build character." Life may never be completely fair, but that's no excuse to make things worse or stand in the way of improving them. Besides that, suffering and poverty are relative. How much is enough to build sufficient character? Is it really possible to appreciate a good meal without watching your siblings die of starvation?

This.
 

BoomerD

No Lifer
Feb 26, 2006
66,570
14,972
146
Actually... after running the numbers, I'm going to back dat shit up.

Judge ordered the parents to pay $16k.

Per semester tuition at Temple is a little over $12k (that's just base tuition and fees for non-residents, she's from NJ). It said she is transferring from a community college, so she has two years done I'm assuming (parents have to pay for that too, separate from the 16k).

Presuming she's finishing a Bachelor's, we'll go with two years left. That's 4 semesters. $16k divided up into 4 semesters is only $4,000 each semester. I didn't see anywhere in the text that said "$16k per semester or year". For a school that costs $12k per semester, this actually sounds like a pretty damn reasonable ruling. $4,000 per semester would be comparable to a local state school in most state university systems.

Okay, my outrage at the judge is mostly gone now. The daughter on the other hand is a stupid bitch though.


Yep. While I disagree with the judge's ruling 100%, they got off pretty easy. He COULD have required them to pay the full ride...including room and board...not just a pittance.
 

iGas

Diamond Member
Feb 7, 2009
6,240
1
0
Yep. While I disagree with the judge's ruling 100%, they got off pretty easy. He COULD have required them to pay the full ride...including room and board...not just a pittance.
Perhaps it is a pittance to some, but I think the judge is compelled by the law, hence his ruling is to get the 3 people involved in this case pay 1/3 of the yearly tuition if the tuition is $12,000 per semester.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
New jersey supreme court decided 30 years ago college tuition is a necessity to be paid for by parents that can afford it.
I wonder how that works if your 40 year old son or daughter decides it's time for that college education.
 

boomerang

Lifer
Jun 19, 2000
18,883
641
126
I'm sick and tired of hearing the "I walked uphill both ways through the snow and it made me a better man argument".

I was dead fucking broke until I was almost 28. You know what it taught me? That it sucks to be dead fucking broke. To minimize my debt to only $17,000, and because there are limits on what you can borrow, I ate shitty food and did very little for fun. It helped that my major required a crap load of studying but still that is not cool. Friends going to Cancun and my entertainment consisted of the free movie tickets they handed out on campus and $4 pitchers at a dive bar every once in a while. I would wait until there were at least a couple movies in the theater so that I could buy one ticket but see multiple movies. Ever sat in on 4 movies in one day? It hurts your ass. When my car died I couldn't afford to get a new one and had to take the bus. I wore my clothes until they practically disintegrated on me.
I'm glad that walking uphill in the snow didn't factor into your absolutely brutal existence. The horror of sitting though 4 movies and the resultant sore ass kinda brings a tear to my eye.
 

highland145

Lifer
Oct 12, 2009
43,973
6,340
136
I'm glad that walking uphill in the snow didn't factor into your absolutely brutal existence. The horror of sitting though 4 movies and the resultant sore ass kinda brings a tear to my eye.
cough...cough..BS..cough..cough.

I feel for the guy but at the end of the day, it looks like he's done pretty well.

My wife didn't get any help from her parents either. Granted college was cheaper in the 80's but still rough making minimum wage. One time, she was hungry with no $$. She stole 1 egg for the store. She still feels guilty about it.
 

SagaLore

Elite Member
Dec 18, 2001
24,036
21
81
The *ONLY* way I'd be cool with that ruling is if there was some kind of line in there that basically said this was loan and that it required a repayment within X number of years upon graduation.


Sorry, but absolutely horrible precedence and ruling.


Agreed. I am not happy with the way our society has turned optional post high school education into some kind of mandate to function in life.
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
1
0
Agreed. I am not happy with the way our society has turned optional post high school education into some kind of mandate to function in life.

Yesterdays HS diploma is almost today's masters degree. You can still bypass it though with contacts. It's always been that way. Be happy since in other countries the paper is much more important.
 

Dr. Zaus

Lifer
Oct 16, 2008
11,764
347
126
Life has stayed stagnant (in terms of purchasing power) for people with high school diplomas. Further life has improved ( in terms of purchasing power) for people with a college degree. But three times as much of our population (40% instead of 13%) have college degrees. Also life has gotten worse for people without a high school education, and the percent on that end has stayed stagnant.

Life is good and getting better; but if you want to be part of the upwardly mobile, you will need an education.
 

Belegost

Golden Member
Feb 20, 2001
1,807
19
81
Your right. We do. I believe that having children personally invest in their education is one of the best things a parent can do for their child. My parents gave me that lesson. At the time I was too young and immature to understand it, but over time I came to understand that making me pay for most of my college education was a really good life lesson. Not to mention it gave me a really good incentive to do as well as possible in college.

And FWIW, an 18 year old is NOT a child. Not in the eyes of the law, and not in the eyes of most of humanity. Hell, 50-60 years ago most 18 year olds were expected to move out of their parents house, get a job, and start supporting themselves. That expectation was not in some backward hillbilly third world country. It was right here in the USA. The only thing that has changed in the last 60 or so years is the EXPECTATIONS of young people. They grew up in an era of unprecedented good times, and so have come to expect that the world should be their oyster. but news flash, it ain't. You gotta work for what you want. And, in the case of college, you gotta pay for it.

Rising tuition cost is a problem. I agree with you there. But the solution to that problem ABSOLUTELY IS NOT forcing parents to pay for their kids college tuition. I mean what is next? Should the government FORCE parents to house their children until they get a job, no matter how old they are, because housing is a right? Should the government FORCE parents to buy their kids a car, because transportation is now a right? Should the government FORCE parents to pay for their kid to play on a travel sports team regardless of cost, because all kids should have access to sports at whatever level they want to play at?

I seriously cannot believe how friggin much people in this country seem to want the government to control their lives.

Finally - Like health care, a college education is not a right. And an expensive college education is definitely not a right. People need to stop treating it like one. You want free/cheap education? There are options available. GI bill, community college, some public schools, etc. The fact that you might not like them does not mean they are not good options.

I completely agree. College is an investment of time and money made at the beginning of adulthood for the benefit of all the years afterwards. If a person is not willing to sacrifice and work to pay for that investment, then I don't feel it's the right option for them, and handing it to them is damaging to them, and to society overall - I would rather have a more motivated student in that seat.

As for rising tuition costs, there definitely needs to be an increase in financial aid funding well beyond what has been occurring, it seems like that is falling behind the tuition increases. Second, I think a lot of the inflation is also demand outgrowing supply; the number of applicants for every seat at major universities is huge, for many majors in the hundreds. This allows tuition to grow until not enough students can afford it, which would definitely be a negative situation for society. The solution is to fund faster growth in the supply so that there are more positions available for students.

It's for this reason that I would like nothing more than to help my kids get through university without eating fishsticks, rice, and ramen. It's pretty simple really. Study and get good grades and you get my help. Don't study and I cut you off. Go to trade school or get a PhD. As long as you're good at it and like it I'll help. I'm a realist though. Costs for a college education are out of control. We can compare wages and make a cost-benefit analysis but I can make it real simple for you: It's free in other countries. You don't even have to hold citizenship in a number of them.
I decided to cut out a long discussion on my own background - quick summary, my parents let me share a room with my brother and eat with the family provided I maintained a 3.8 or better GPA and did a number of chores. I was responsible for my transportation, clothes, and all school expenses. I worked weekends doing construction, and studied after that, I had no relationships until grad school (which was so nice to have so much free time!) I feel that by making my college education something I had to personally sacrifice for in terms of time, money, and social status helped mold me into a stronger more productive person. I attribute my current success (as much as I have) to those lessons.

That's pretty close to my plans for my kids - I will not give them a dime for tuition costs, that is their responsibility. I am willing to reward them for hard work, and dedication by helping them with housing, food and transportation. But it will be very clear that my help is a reward, a benefit from their hard work, not given for nothing, and not to be expected. I may even be willing to pay off their loans once they graduate, but that will be something not mentioned until after. They have to be willing to make that sacrifice on their own, with no expectation that the world is going to hand it to them.

Which leads back to the opening situation:
McGarvey said in court that her daughter left after refusing to do chores and follow a curfew, and that she had problems with underage drinking.
Alcohol and school are a stupid mix, and my kids will get one chance to make that mistake before being cut off. Further, contributing to chores around the house is simply part of a roommate agreement, if she had moved in with other roommates and failed to meet her responsibilities they would kick her out, why not her parents?
She said her parents had a "nothing will ever be good enough" mentality, saying that when she received two A's, one B, and one C one semester at the community college, her parents grew upset.
I would be upset about that result as well, though one semester of failure wouldn't be enough to convince me to end funding, but continued poor performance would.

So my problem here is that I see a situation where parents made some offer of support, but the daughter abused it and they withdrew the support. And now she has used the legal system to FORCE that support. That's where I disagree with this, college is not a right, and should not be something an adult can demand from their parents.

I think this was the key exchange where I agree with the parents:
At other points during Monday's hearing, Shusted reminded Caitlyn Ricci's parents that she was a young adult capable of making her own decisions.

"It's her life," Shusted said.

"Then let her pay for it," Michael Ricci, a senior account manager, said.

If a person wants to be treated as an adult and make their own decisions, then they can damned well pay for the consequences of those decisions.
 

Mai72

Lifer
Sep 12, 2012
11,562
1,742
126
I completely agree. College is an investment of time and money made at the beginning of adulthood for the benefit of all the years afterwards. If a person is not willing to sacrifice and work to pay for that investment, then I don't feel it's the right option for them, and handing it to them is damaging to them, and to society overall - I would rather have a more motivated student in that seat.

As for rising tuition costs, there definitely needs to be an increase in financial aid funding well beyond what has been occurring, it seems like that is falling behind the tuition increases. Second, I think a lot of the inflation is also demand outgrowing supply; the number of applicants for every seat at major universities is huge, for many majors in the hundreds. This allows tuition to grow until not enough students can afford it, which would definitely be a negative situation for society. The solution is to fund faster growth in the supply so that there are more positions available for students.


I decided to cut out a long discussion on my own background - quick summary, my parents let me share a room with my brother and eat with the family provided I maintained a 3.8 or better GPA and did a number of chores. I was responsible for my transportation, clothes, and all school expenses. I worked weekends doing construction, and studied after that, I had no relationships until grad school (which was so nice to have so much free time!) I feel that by making my college education something I had to personally sacrifice for in terms of time, money, and social status helped mold me into a stronger more productive person. I attribute my current success (as much as I have) to those lessons.

That's pretty close to my plans for my kids - I will not give them a dime for tuition costs, that is their responsibility. I am willing to reward them for hard work, and dedication by helping them with housing, food and transportation. But it will be very clear that my help is a reward, a benefit from their hard work, not given for nothing, and not to be expected. I may even be willing to pay off their loans once they graduate, but that will be something not mentioned until after. They have to be willing to make that sacrifice on their own, with no expectation that the world is going to hand it to them.

Which leads back to the opening situation:

Alcohol and school are a stupid mix, and my kids will get one chance to make that mistake before being cut off. Further, contributing to chores around the house is simply part of a roommate agreement, if she had moved in with other roommates and failed to meet her responsibilities they would kick her out, why not her parents?

I would be upset about that result as well, though one semester of failure wouldn't be enough to convince me to end funding, but continued poor performance would.

So my problem here is that I see a situation where parents made some offer of support, but the daughter abused it and they withdrew the support. And now she has used the legal system to FORCE that support. That's where I disagree with this, college is not a right, and should not be something an adult can demand from their parents.

I think this was the key exchange where I agree with the parents:


If a person wants to be treated as an adult and make their own decisions, then they can damned well pay for the consequences of those decisions.
Many nontraditional college students are 40 years old and above. Not everyone is a bright eyed 18 year old student living at home.

People think the issues with student loans are from young people still in their 20s, but this just isn't true.
 

mugs

Lifer
Apr 29, 2003
48,920
46
91
Couple of red flags:

1. The grandparents are on the kid's side for some reason that we're not being told
2. The father is willing to contribute to the girl's tuition, but only if she goes to a state school. Why not be willing to contribute only a certain amount of money regardless of where she goes? Seems like he's trying to control her.

FWIW, $16k is approximately what tuition and fees would cost at Rutgers (not room and board). It's $10k below what tuition and fees would cost at Temple.
 

norseamd

Lifer
Dec 13, 2013
13,990
180
106
Many nontraditional college students are 40 years old and above. Not everyone is a bright eyed 18 year old student living at home.

People think the issues with student loans are from young people still in their 20s, but this just isn't true.

Your point is good but you may want to consider if those you are wanting to make aware of those ideas are ignorant and view the world with their own bias and prejudiced against everything that does not fully meet their ideological opinion. Still your point is readable to all and thus it is able to benefit those who read it and are willing to consider or understand with open thought.
 

doubledeluxe

Golden Member
Oct 1, 2014
1,074
1
0
I decided to cut out a long discussion on my own background - quick summary, my parents let me share a room with my brother and eat with the family provided I maintained a 3.8 or better GPA and did a number of chores. I was responsible for my transportation, clothes, and all school expenses. I worked weekends doing construction, and studied after that, I had no relationships until grad school (which was so nice to have so much free time!) I feel that by making my college education something I had to personally sacrifice for in terms of time, money, and social status helped mold me into a stronger more productive person. I attribute my current success (as much as I have) to those lessons.

That's pretty close to my plans for my kids - I will not give them a dime for tuition costs, that is their responsibility. I am willing to reward them for hard work, and dedication by helping them with housing, food and transportation. But it will be very clear that my help is a reward, a benefit from their hard work, not given for nothing, and not to be expected. I may even be willing to pay off their loans once they graduate, but that will be something not mentioned until after. They have to be willing to make that sacrifice on their own, with no expectation that the world is going to hand it to them.

I can see myself doing something along the lines of making them work for it and then paying off the debt afterwards. It depends on the child. They need to be motivated in different ways. What I will not do though is have them saddled in debt and dead broke until they're in their 30's.

I had two college experiences.

1. Studied at a major European University in a capital city. Education was free and the books were paid for with a small stipend which was really not needed since the books were so cheap. I had an office assistant job that paid $10/hr it was enough for me to have a tiny one room apt ($400/mo) in the city, go to the bars and clubs on the weekend, have a girlfriend, spend $900 to go interrailing and see most of Europe during the summers. I ate ramen and fish sticks, I had no furniture but a mattress on the floor, a bookshelf, a kitchen table, and 4 chairs. It was ok. I had fun, I dated, I studied, and a scraped by like a normal college student.

2. Studied at a community college and then transferred to a University in CA. Parents helped me with $14,000, I can't remember but I probably got close to $30,000 in scholarships and grants, and I borrowed $17,000. I had an apt in a terrible part of town for $650-$750/month, a car held together by duct tape and then no car when it died, worked on campus between classes for $10/hr, no clothes, owned no shoes but instead wore flip flops or my old boots from Europe, ate terrible food, had no extra income for anything fun, and a relationship was impossible.

So you tell me. Was I king of my own castle with a silver spoon in my mouth in the first experience? What's wrong with that?
 

Koing

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator<br> Health and F
Oct 11, 2000
16,843
2
0
And what life lesson does that prove? If she's a drunk little party girl that gets kicked out of an internship program the lesson here is is: Don't be a drunk little retard that gets kicked out of programs.

Instead...the court has ruled that any reasonable reaction of the parent (pulling funding and holding her accountable for her actions) is unjust and they are now required to pay for her immaturity.

Spoiled brats need a kick in the ass. They just blocked the boot from the parents.

It is a joke that her parents are forced to pay for her tuition. I agree it was her own fault for losing her internship for being drunk. But according to the article her grades have improved and a few other things. It does suck the courts are making the parents pay for it. But I guess her parents are wealthy enough to afford her tuition.

This teaches her that if she misses up, makes an improvement (grades and a few other things) she gets her tuition fees paid :p

Koing