Dating in a rape culture

[mikeymikec]

And yet its not the same. I have not defined what Quantum Bunny Theory is. You can try to assume but you would be wrong. That is why you do not assume you have an understanding of something until its defined. If its not defined, then you have no reason to believe in it as a thing. You can say there is rape culture, but until you define what it is, its not a thing other than a term that is meaningless.

I will and I am. You are the one making the positive claim there is something, so its up to you to establish why. This is the same thing Buck did and its funny you bring him up, because here we are now. You are making a claim that there is something, but saying I need to go figure out why.

This is getting tedious. You supported the notion that one can claim that a term (and its attached definition) are bullshit without knowing what the term means or its definition. I challenged that. Now you're saying the opposite. I honestly can't be bothered with this.

What is red mist?

let me google that for you red mist. Oh look, a dictionary definition appears! I'm sure you'll say you're perfectly calm. Moving on.

"used in reference to a fit of extreme anger that temporarily clouds a person's judgement."

So, lets look at some definitions.
Nope. We don't live in a society where we support male sexual aggression and violence to women. So that one is wrong already.
Nope again. Nobody thinks rape is okay. Nobody accepts that rape happens and to not worry about it.

I love how you sum up "a complex set of beliefs" without addressing any of those beliefs (such as the ones that the OP article describes) with these statements. But frankly I'm beyond the point of caring what you think.

The difference is that you are talking about educated people of science coming up with terms and having evidence and logic to establish the meaning. I have not seen that type of scientific rigor in defining rape culture.

That's because it's not a scientific term. "Racism" isn't a scientific term either, yet I assume you have no problems accepting that definition or its existence.

I realise you have a serious bee in your bonnet over this term, but you can easily concede this point and yet still talk about the validity of what rape culture means.

I think its a bullshit term used to disparage people. We do not live in a rape culture, unless by rape culture you mean a culture that has rape in it.

Who is it disparaging...

How is this a definition of a term?

People wanted my opinion of what it meant, so I gave my opinion. Now you're quibbling the definition of "definition". Jeez!

But according to you, people (particularly women) don't commonly have problems that are associated with (and/or leading to) victim-blaming after being sexually assaulted, so I guess that's the end of this discussion quite frankly. How you've led a sheltered enough life to not hear about anything like is something that surprises the hell out of me, but I honestly can't be bothered to try and convince you. It's like contributing to a thread that talks about racism only for someone to pipe up with the opinion that say America doesn't suffer from any of that any more; it's simply pointless to continue.

 

[Spungo]

Nope, don't see it. You sound like you're rationalizing an attraction to a woman as something else.

You don't see the masculine features? She's a handsome woman.

In my mind, I imagine someone like Niko Bellic saying "They tried to kill me, so I killed them first."

She also applies lipstick in a really weird way. Notice how the lipstick only covers the middle part of her lips. Is that a hipster thing or is that how men think lipstick is applied?

Kiss me or I crush you like pebble.

 

[Exophase]

You don't see the masculine features? She's a handsome woman.

Not really. She looks a lot better in that second picture too, but I assume it's a much older picture. Apparently from when she was in college. That and the lighting in the first one isn't that flattering.

Don't know about the lipstick thing, seems like she's doing that in this picture here too..

https://kqduane.files.wordpress.com/2014/07/jessica-valenti.jpeg

 

[realibrad]

This is getting tedious. You supported the notion that one can claim that a term (and its attached definition) are bullshit without knowing what the term means or its definition. I challenged that. Now you're saying the opposite. I honestly can't be bothered with this.

Its not worthy of belief until its explained and supported. So far every definition I have seen is bullshit when you look for support. If you have a different definition, provide it and then support it. You make the positive claim that there "is" something, so support it.

let me google that for you red mist. Oh look, a dictionary definition appears! I'm sure you'll say you're perfectly calm. Moving on.

Talking to you I am. If you are saying that I am not, then explain why you believe that. What makes you think I am mad at you? I disagree with the situation and the claims made.

"used in reference to a fit of extreme anger that temporarily clouds a person's judgement."

Im not sure why you think I am in a fit of extreme anger, but I dont feel that way. You can say I would disagree, but that does not support that I am angry.

I love how you sum up "a complex set of beliefs" without addressing any of those beliefs (such as the ones that the OP article describes) with these statements. But frankly I'm beyond the point of caring what you think.

My posts have explained my position and addressed the stated beliefs. What do you think I have not addressed in my responses? Tell me and I will address it or point you to where I already did.

That's because it's not a scientific term. "Racism" isn't a scientific term either, yet I assume you have no problems accepting that definition or its existence.

Um... you brought up Anthropologists. You are the one who brought up their terms which are scientific. I'm confused.

Who is it disparaging...

Supposed rape apologists who say things like the 1 in 5 rape stat is not true.

People wanted my opinion of what it meant, so I gave my opinion. Now you're quibbling the definition of "definition". Jeez!

I'm not. I am asking you how that is a definition. It did not define or explain anything in term of the issue. If it does then feel free to explain where I misunderstood.

But according to you, people (particularly women) don't commonly have problems that are associated with (and/or leading to) victim-blaming after being sexually assaulted, so I guess that's the end of this discussion quite frankly.

No. Victims are blamed. I said that women are blamed for their situation just as men are. I clearly said before that people blame victims and its not unique to women. Are you reading what I am saying, or mixing up what others have said as mine?

How you've led a sheltered enough life to not hear about anything like is something that surprises the hell out of me, but I honestly can't be bothered to try and convince you. It's like contributing to a thread that talks about racism only for someone to pipe up with the opinion that say America doesn't suffer from any of that any more; it's simply pointless to continue.

Ah the old Bucky move. "Its your job to investigate and prove my claims!"

If you claim there is racism, then its your task to explain why. It is not the job of the person who says there is not racism to support the non-existence of their position because you cant. If I claim evolution is true, I first must define what evolution is. I then must support the reason I believe its true. If you say there is a rape culture, you need to provide a definition, and then support why you think its true with evidence.

You seem to believe you have done the first part, but I disagree, but you have not done the 2nd part which is evidence. If your argument is simply that you were asked for a definition then I still disagree you have done that. For rape culture to be a thing, you must establish how its different from a culture that has rape in it. To define a culture by an action, you must explain your process. You have not done that. So, until you explain there is no reason to believe in rape culture. You are a hypocrite if you think Buck needed to do that, but you dont in your claim.

 

[Rebel_L]

No. She is 100% treating him as if he might be a rapist. There is no doubt about that. She is right not to trust him before she knows him. But, she is clearly treating him as if he might be and there is nothing wrong with that.




Again we go back to a continuum. She does not believe that he is 100% not a rapist, but she also does not believe that 100% he is a rapist. Because she does not know, she is being safe. She is seeing wanting to see him because she thinks the risk is probably low, but not 0 either. Again, I agree with her assessment, but some might find that offensive as I explained before. Black people commit more crime per capita vs men raping, but very few would make the argument of being safe around black people, and for good reason.




No. Your stance is against that argument. You are not treating this man as an individual in your risk assessment. She clearly talked about how society treats people. Her logic is not about just her and him, but her in society. Her fear (which is logical) comes from the fact that Men rape women. Her judgement of the situation is not in a vacuum.

I dont know how to express what I am trying to say any clearer. The subtle differences that I am talking about are about a change in attitude, disposition, perspective. It would deal with similar concepts as if we were having a discussion about the classic "is the glass half full or half empty" scenario.

Relating back to the original disagreement, I still see his line as being extremely rude and possibly predatory in nature even if you cant see it from that perspective.



As for the rest in just going to sum up and say, in almost all situations when someone blames a victim they are making a large amount of unfounded assumptions and its a problem with the person doing the blaming, not the victim. If you are having trouble feeling sympathy for a victim you need to stop thinking about what might be wrong with the victim and start thinking about what might be wrong with yourself.

 

[realibrad]

I dont know how to express what I am trying to say any clearer. The subtle differences that I am talking about are about a change in attitude, disposition, perspective. It would deal with similar concepts as if we were having a discussion about the classic "is the glass half full or half empty" scenario.

Not sure I understand.

Relating back to the original disagreement, I still see his line as being extremely rude and possibly predatory in nature even if you cant see it from that perspective.

It could be, or it could not be. Again, she is right to play it safe, but you are making an assumption that the guys is being rude. You should be able to understand why he might take offense to her treating him as if he might be a rapist. Its the same reason a black person might take offense to someone thinking he might be a criminal because more blacks commit violent crime per capita.

As for the rest in just going to sum up and say, in almost all situations when someone blames a victim they are making a large amount of unfounded assumptions and its a problem with the person doing the blaming, not the victim.

No. While it could be true that assumptions would could be made when blaming a victim, its also true that you may know all the details and still blame the victim. Not sure why you think assumptions are relevant. I would guess you are not going to explain further as you seem to not want to continue. If you do, then I will listen.

If you are having trouble feeling sympathy for a victim you need to stop thinking about what might be wrong with the victim and start thinking about what might be wrong with yourself.

You can feel sympathy and feel that they also partly brought it upon themselves. If a girl is raped in her house I feel a lot of sympathy. If she is raped after getting drunk every night and going home with strange men, I feel sympathy but less so. How much less is really going to be too hard to explain because it would depend on all the details, but rape is never okay no matter how foolish I think someone was.

 

[Rebel_L]

Not sure I understand.



It could be, or it could not be. Again, she is right to play it safe, but you are making an assumption that the guys is being rude. You should be able to understand why he might take offense to her treating him as if he might be a rapist. Its the same reason a black person might take offense to someone thinking he might be a criminal because more blacks commit violent crime per capita.

If you agree that his statement could be incredibly rude, how is the thought process in her head an overreaction to his comment? I assume that she see's it as a an incredibly rude comment because she has the reaction she does.

This is a fictional work that is supposed to convey a message, not an actual retelling of a conversation that had a tragic misunderstanding in it.

Are you just unhappy that the author used language that didnt illustrate the point clearly? What message do you think the cartoon is supposed to convey? I thought you were unhappy with her reaction because you could not see any way that his words could be both meant as and interpreted in a way to fit the reaction.

No. While it could be true that assumptions would could be made when blaming a victim, its also true that you may know all the details and still blame the victim. Not sure why you think assumptions are relevant. I would guess you are not going to explain further as you seem to not want to continue. If you do, then I will listen.



You can feel sympathy and feel that they also partly brought it upon themselves. If a girl is raped in her house I feel a lot of sympathy. If she is raped after getting drunk every night and going home with strange men, I feel sympathy but less so. How much less is really going to be too hard to explain because it would depend on all the details, but rape is never okay no matter how foolish I think someone was.

You can not know all the details. There is no third person omniscient perspective in real life. Simply saying you have all the relevant details is already making your first assumption.

 

[realibrad]

If you agree that his statement could be incredibly rude, how is the thought process in her head an overreaction to his comment? I assume that she see's it as a an incredibly rude comment because she has the reaction she does.

No, you cant assume its rude because she felt it was rude.

This is a fictional work that is supposed to convey a message, not an actual retelling of a conversation that had a tragic misunderstanding in it.

Yes, I know. The authors message is that if someone is offended by you treating them as if they might be a rapist you should be super angry at them for not understanding all the personal things you go through. Realize the argument I am making. I am not saying the person is wrong for being safe. I am not saying that the person does not have real things to worry about. I am not saying the guy was 100% correct.

I am saying that her internal feeling in reaction to what he did is an overreaction.

Are you just unhappy that the author used language that didnt illustrate the point clearly? What message do you think the cartoon is supposed to convey? I thought you were unhappy with her reaction because you could not see any way that his words could be both meant as and interpreted in a way to fit the reaction.

He is ignorant of her reasoning. He did not like that she was treating him as if he might be a rapist. Again, this is normal. If you treat people with caution for something like rape, they feel that its a signal that you think they are that thing. Its not correct, but that is how many people feel. His reaction while wrong is not uncommon.

Her response emotionally is anger that he does not understand her situation. That is the over reaction.

The message is that she is angry that men do not understand all the things she goes through mentally, not that the guy did something super offensive. Unless that is, you think not knowing things is offensive.

You can not know all the details. There is no third person omniscient perspective in real life. Simply saying you have all the relevant details is already making your first assumption.

Well then what is the conclusion to that? Nobody ever knows anything ever because its impossible. In that case judgement of victim and attacker should never be done because unless you have perfect information, who are you to judge. Surely that is not your position and you just jumped to a comment before fully thinking it through.


I keep saying this and I think you are missing it. Many people find it offensive to be treated as if they are at risk of being something bad. They will argue its a stereotype to assume all of a group is dangerous because of a few people. Not all men rape, and not even close to a majority. He could have been a dick I suppose, but it sure seems more likely given how people typically are that he was just offended and pointing it out.

 

[Spungo]

It could be, or it could not be. Again, she is right to play it safe, but you are making an assumption that the guys is being rude. You should be able to understand why he might take offense to her treating him as if he might be a rapist. Its the same reason a black person might take offense to someone thinking he might be a criminal because more blacks commit violent crime per capita.

The problem is a complete lack of self-awareness and social prowess.

Suppose a girl leaves her drink at the bar to go use the bathroom. Now the drink is not trustworthy. What should she do? She could hold the drink, but not drink any of it. She could give it to the bartender and say she's done with the drink. She could pour her drink into her date's glass when he's not looking (lol). Or she could be a total retard and say to her date/friend/whatever "I can't drink this now because I think you might rape me."

If she is raped after getting drunk every night and going home with strange men, I feel sympathy but less so. How much less is really going to be too hard to explain because it would depend on all the details, but rape is never okay no matter how foolish I think someone was.

It's possible to feel sorry for them and think they deserved it at the same time. Example: I saw a video on break or liveleak where this guy put his leg on the ground and got his friend to drive over it. I can't even imagine how painful that broken leg was. I can feel bad for that person while shrugging it off as a learning experience. He's a real victim, and we should help that guy to the best of our abilities, but we're still allowed to call him a retard.

I think a lot of the psychological damage caused by grey area somewhat-rape is caused by American society being puritanical and stupid. I knew one girl in high school who was pressured into sex, and it absolutely destroyed her. Her family was religious, and she truly believed she lost all of her value as a human. She was no longer a "pure" woman or whatever. She was somehow tainted. She was no longer god's perfect creation. That screwed up brainwashing ruined her life. Yes her rapist boyfriend should be skinned alive, and I would pay good money to be the one doing it, but her parents should be skinned as well.
This is one issue where I think sex positive feminists are on the right track. Sex doesn't make you a bad person. Saying sex is bad makes you a bad person.

 

[Victorian Gray]

So, apparently red mist is likely referring to Red Pill. Its a MIGTOW phrase that builds off of The Matrix. MIGTOW seem like the other side of the coin that modern feminism is on.

So you have pro women crazy, and pro men crazy. Some MIGTOW guy even tried to say women are not people, lol.

Definition of red mist in English:
red mist
noun
chiefly British Used in reference to a fit of extreme anger that temporarily clouds a person’s judgement: for the second time in a week, the red mist descended on Rooney

Origin

Mid 19th century: from the supposed physiological effect of a rush of blood to the head in anger or excitement.

http://www.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/red-mist

 

[blankslate]

Don't worry, I have enough insane posts for that thread and every other thread here at the same time.

hey man take a note from a cartoon character and just....

or maybe not.


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[realibrad]

The problem is a complete lack of self-awareness and social prowess.

Suppose a girl leaves her drink at the bar to go use the bathroom. Now the drink is not trustworthy. What should she do? She could hold the drink, but not drink any of it. She could give it to the bartender and say she's done with the drink. She could pour her drink into her date's glass when he's not looking (lol). Or she could be a total retard and say to her date/friend/whatever "I can't drink this now because I think you might rape me."



It's possible to feel sorry for them and think they deserved it at the same time. Example: I saw a video on break or liveleak where this guy put his leg on the ground and got his friend to drive over it. I can't even imagine how painful that broken leg was. I can feel bad for that person while shrugging it off as a learning experience. He's a real victim, and we should help that guy to the best of our abilities, but we're still allowed to call him a retard.

I think a lot of the psychological damage caused by grey area somewhat-rape is caused by American society being puritanical and stupid. I knew one girl in high school who was pressured into sex, and it absolutely destroyed her. Her family was religious, and she truly believed she lost all of her value as a human. She was no longer a "pure" woman or whatever. She was somehow tainted. She was no longer god's perfect creation. That screwed up brainwashing ruined her life. Yes her rapist boyfriend should be skinned alive, and I would pay good money to be the one doing it, but her parents should be skinned as well.
This is one issue where I think sex positive feminists are on the right track. Sex doesn't make you a bad person. Saying sex is bad makes you a bad person.

Nobody ever deserves to be raped ever.

 

[shortylickens]

Nobody ever deserves to be raped ever.

Deserves got nothin to do with it.

 

[blankslate]

Deserves got nothin to do with it.

Any man who's gonna date rape a woman shoulda armed himself?



*e2a*

Unforgiven.


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[shortylickens]

http://imgur.com/gallery/xeNeHML

 

[Exophase]

hey man take a note from a cartoon character and just....

or maybe not.

I would but I'm too crazy 🙁

 

[MajinCry]

Deserves got nothin to do with it.

It's possible to feel sorry for them and think they deserved it at the same time.

How dare woman be on guard towards being raped. What is this world coming to?

 

[Blue_Max]

Gamergaters still mostly defend Cosby out of anger that his raping being publicly exposed has taken away one of their favorite tools: pills.

Wow... that should get the "strawman of the year" award.

I haven't seen ONE gamergater:
1) want to rape
2) complain that rape should remain private, not publicized
3) lament the loss of drugs in order to rape

To argue that they almost all do, you should very easily be able to point out lots of examples of such. Right? Show us the proof of your claim or enjoy the badge of "liar".

The only question left to ask is if this is your independent thought and you're lying of your own accord, or if you're just parroting the words of the progressive collective and completely uninterested in what the truth may actually be.

One word; collusion. Happens all too often.

 

[Blue_Max]

How dare woman be on guard towards being raped. What is this world coming to?

She's not "supposed" to be on guard, is the argument. She should be 100% safe at all times. Men everywhere must be there to protect her and never do anything bad in the first place.

Her having to consider ANY personal responsibility towards her own safety or defense is "victim blaming".

It's pathetic.

Criminals will ALWAYS exist. Always have, always will. You can label and punish all men everywhere for the crimes of 0.016% of the population but it still won't stop them from doing the evil they intend to do -- but you can be smart and keep yourself out of harm's way, and you can be smart and learn to defend yourself in the very off-chance you have to...
...but that's unappealing since you have to put in effort. (Yuck!) Far easier just to cry, stamp your feet, and demand more legislation to punish anyone that so much as hurts your feelings at the drop of a hat.

 

[Spungo]

Nobody ever deserves to be raped ever.

Deserve might be the wrong word. What's it called when a person is doing something incredibly stupid and it leads to the exact problem one would expect? I have a real life example to use. In my high school, I remember 1 guy dying because he was doing something stupid involving standing on the hood of a car. I can only assume he fell and landed on his head. Did he deserve to die? Deserve is the wrong word to describe this. Nobody says he got what he deserved. It's a terrible accident that could have been prevented. The solution is to talk about it, show everyone that it's a problem, and hopefully tell people how to prevent such accidents. We might laugh at people like this and give them Darwin Awards, but we still sympathize.

Partially responsible might be a more accurate way of stating it. A person who gets black out drunk with no friends to take care of them is partially responsible for what happens to them. If you fall asleep in front of your guy friends and they take pictures with their cocks on your face, you know at least some of that was your own fault unless they drugged you against your will.
https://youtu.be/6uvg-ug9CvE?t=68

 

[Howard]

And who is promoting this rape culture, Liberal Hollywood (fifty shades of grey), the porn industry, the religious right, amateur cam models, etc.?

not sure if trolling or just stupid

 

[Paratus]

She's not "supposed" to be on guard, is the argument. She should be 100% safe at all times. Men everywhere must be there to protect her and never do anything bad in the first place.

Her having to consider ANY personal responsibility towards her own safety or defense is "victim blaming".

It's pathetic.

Criminals will ALWAYS exist. Always have, always will. You can label and punish all men everywhere for the crimes of 0.016% of the population but it still won't stop them from doing the evil they intend to do -- but you can be smart and keep yourself out of harm's way, and you can be smart and learn to defend yourself in the very off-chance you have to...
...but that's unappealing since you have to put in effort. (Yuck!) Far easier just to cry, stamp your feet, and demand more legislation to punish anyone that so much as hurts your feelings at the drop of a hat.

As I said earlier one of the facets of rape culture is blaming her for treating unknown men as a risk: you can label and punish all men everywhere.....

Another facet is blaming her for not being "responsible": Her having to consider ANY personal responsibility towards her own safety or defense is "victim blaming".

Thank you for so aptly demonstrating both facets in a single post. :thumbsup: 🙄

 

[Vic]

Rape is a highly successful evolutionary strategy. Many species depend on it for their survival. So the question is, to what extent has homo sapiens depended on rape for its survival in its evolutionary past, and what effect is that having in our modern culture?

 

[Blue_Max]

As I said earlier one of the facets of rape culture is blaming her for treating unknown men as a risk: you can label and punish all men everywhere.....

Another facet is blaming her for not being "responsible": Her having to consider ANY personal responsibility towards her own safety or defense is "victim blaming".

Thank you for so aptly demonstrating both facets in a single post. :thumbsup: 🙄

"Blame" is not an absolute that is lumped 100% on only one person, as you seem to see it. It HAS to be 'his' fault, otherwise it would be 'hers' and that ain't right! It can be partially one person, partially a group, or even none at all.

Punishing an entire gender for the actions of 0.016% of its members is an evil act, even if it's to shield a woman of any blame at all whatsoever - which is unfair and ultimately harms women in the long run.

Asking women (and men almost exactly the same, for slightly different reasons) to make smart decisions and/or defend themselves on the off chance of something happens does NOT mean rapists/attackers are getting a 'free pass' or no blame. It's realism. No law or stigma is going to change the actions of an evil criminal already operating with zero regard for law and societal stigmas. Punishing ALL men with "rape culture" bullcrap only takes away allies, despite the fact rapists are already despised by over 99% of western civilization (including men) and men are naturally predisposed to want to protect women from harm.

 

[blankslate]

I would but I'm too crazy

Don't worry we don't hate you for it. We just take proper precautions.


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