Pliablemoose
Lifer
- Oct 11, 1999
- 25,195
- 0
- 56
Pretty damm good rebuttal.
SunnyD:
There is a big flaw in your arguement.
Droids, EVO, etc...aren't GSM phones and therefore do not retain their value.
A main reason why theres such a big market for used iPhones is because they are beloved in other countries.
I have had plenty of people buying my unlocked iphones and say they are bringing it back to their country.
I, myself bring a few back when I travel back to VN.
The only phones out there that I can make a fair comparison are the Galaxy S since they can be found in GSM flavors.
They can be found for $200-$250.
3GS can be had for $250-$275.
For me I could use either one as I have both.
The 3GS is just as fast as the IP4 for daily usage to my surprise.
The Vibrant is also pretty good once you root and install a custom ROM.
Its up to the users really.
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
k... let's break this down...
Apple doesn't, not directly. They do so indirectly. How? ...
And how does the free market determine the price of it? The same way Apple derives the retail price of the phone - because it's a fucking Apple product and thereby demands a premium.
See above. Simply because it's an Apple phone, it thereby demands a premium.
The price of the iPhone should be lower than it is, simply because it has equivalent competing products of similar quality and capability. Therefore, it should be priced similarly.
You already asked this, and I already answered it.
You seem to have taken this opportunity to simply go out of your way to try to insult me and call me names without providing a reasonable explanation of why a used iPhone should command a higher resale price point. Instead of calling names, why not try to make an actual counter-argument. Calling me a 'retard' doesn't have anything to do with the price point of phones unfortunately.
Apple doesn't, not directly. They do so indirectly. How? ...
And how does the free market determine the price of it? The same way Apple derives the retail price of the phone - because it's a fucking Apple product and thereby demands a premium.
See above. Simply because it's an Apple phone, it thereby demands a premium.
The price of the iPhone should be lower than it is, simply because it has equivalent competing products of similar quality and capability. Therefore, it should be priced similarly.
You already asked this, and I already answered it.
You seem to have taken this opportunity to simply go out of your way to try to insult me and call me names without providing a reasonable explanation of why a used iPhone should command a higher resale price point. Instead of calling names, why not try to make an actual counter-argument. Calling me a 'retard' doesn't have anything to do with the price point of phones unfortunately.
That article is retarded.
- If I see a good deal on an iPhone and I spend that much time asking questions, it would probably get sold to the next person.
- IP4 go for an average of $345 ?? WTF ??
I'll buy them all day long at $345.
The lowest so far I've been able to get on CL is $400.
- Return policy ?? LMAO.
- To my knowledge, theres no such thing is flagging stolen phones.
- I have bought many iPhones on CL and I haven't run into a bad phone yet and I don't most of the crap the article tells you to do.
cheezy321
Diamond Member
- Dec 31, 2003
- 6,218
- 2
- 0
I don't have to provide a reasonable explanation. The free market has already spoken for me. Thousands of people across craigslist and other websites have stated with their wallets that the used iPhone's command the asking prices you see on said websites. This is the part that you dont understand. It has nothing to do with your opinion. It has nothing to do with my opinion. We are nothing. There are hundreds of people buying and selling iPhones every day. The prices you see on craigslist are obviously not out of line, because people are selling the phones at those prices. That is all I'm saying.
It is just a basic understanding of economics
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand
There are either a limited amount of used iPhones on the market (supply) OR there is a lot of demand for a used iPhone. Its as simple as that. When one or the other happens, the price shifts accordingly.
You can use this example on any product.
Please note that I am not getting into an argument about why the used Apple iPhone should command a higher price. That will get us absolutely nowhere. That is opinion. What I am stating is a fact. Hundreds of people are paying that price for a used iPhone every single day, regardless of what you think. The value has been determined by the free market. Simple as that.
QueBert
Lifer
- Jan 6, 2002
- 22,954
- 1,145
- 126
Rubbish, it's because people like the phones. You can call them r-tards or whatever. But I can't count how many iPhone owners I've had come up to me and show me their iPhone as if they were the only person in the world who had one. On the other end of the spectrum I can count on 1 hand how many times an Android owner has done the same thing. Take any single Android phone and put it against the iPhone, the iPhone will have out sold it 10:1. The iPhone's worth what people are willing to pay for it. I sold a 1G iPhone last year on CL for more than I paid for the Droid 1 I bought on there a week later. At that point the Droid was about about 4 months old. My iPhone was close to FOUR YEARS old.
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
Ahh... see, that's the point of this thread in the first place though. All I'm hearing is "free market blah blah blah". Of course it's the free market. The op is asking WHY. You're not stating any facts about why people are still paying these prices for used iPhones. Of course the value is determined by the free market. Of course supply and demand are going to have an adjustment on price; as you so helpfully point out this basic economics. But why is there a premium attached to the used iPhone. The OP wanted to know why. I provided an answer whereas you did not. It's as simple as that.
Please understand I'm not trying to bash your precious iPhone. It's a marvelous and game-changing piece of technology. But so are the devices that came after it. Imitation is the highest form of flattery of course. But there is no feasible technical reason at this point why used iPhones command the premium resale value they currently hold. The only reason, as you helpfully point is, is because people are willing to pay a premium because it's an iPhone. Once again I submit to you: The Apple Tax.
Thank you for reinforcing my point.
Can we stop chanting "market forces" as a reason for the premium price? Who is the market? The people buying them. Why are they willing to pay the premium? There's the question the OP asked.
Anyway, we seem to be going around and around in circles here. The point is lost on you two, that's fine. Hopefully the OP will find the answer he was looking for in here.
And let it be known that for the record, I'm not an Apple hater. I personally have owned exactly 3 iPhones and 1 iPod in my life. No, I no longer own any of them - why? Because I dislike the interface and find the flexibility of Android far superior currently, plus I like the hardware afforded by my current phone better than an iPhone. And finally, I did utilize the
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Axon
Platinum Member
- Sep 25, 2003
- 2,541
- 1
- 76
I'm not entirely certain how Apple sets the reseller market price, other than in the sense newegg, for example, has an effect on after-market computer tech. "Just because it's an Apple" doesn't ring true to me, unless you're suggesting these used phones retain their prices because Apple never dips an inch on its retail prices? What someone is willing to pay for a used iphone is not really altered by Apple in any manner. A used iphone is worth $0 to me because I won't pay a penny for it, e.g., Apple has no effect on me. If I wanted to get a used phone, however, I'd have to pay the Apple tax you're discussing because no other option is available to me.
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cheezy321
Diamond Member
- Dec 31, 2003
- 6,218
- 2
- 0
You arent understanding what I am saying. Its NOT a premium. It is the price that everyone in the market will pay for the phone. We are at an equilibrium in pricing. They aren't paying anything ABOVE market price. They are paying exactly market price. There is no premium involved. The price has been decided. YOU are the one who thinks its a premium price, not the hundreds of people who buy a used iPhone every single day.
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
And you aren't understanding what I'm saying. It IS a premium over other phones with equivalent functionality, particularly when it comes to holding value over time. Apple products demand a premium over other equivalent products. They always have, and always will. This is not arguable, period.
With that, I'm done with this conversation. There's no sense trying to hammer a nail through a knot in the board.
cheezy321
Diamond Member
- Dec 31, 2003
- 6,218
- 2
- 0
The other phones dont have equivalent functionality (according to the market) or else they would all be the same price on the used market. The phones arent perfect substitutes. Now we are getting into the marginal rate of substitution (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marginal_rate_of_substitution). If you try and quantify utility, then people in the market are getting more utility out of the iPhone vs. any of the other phones you named.
I understand what you are saying. The point I am trying to get across is that is your pure opinion. Its not the opinion of the rest of the market. They dont see the used iPhone 3gs @ $300 as a premium. They see it as a fair price. And they are paying that price, every single day.
So what are comparable phones that are priced unreasonably lower than iPhones ??
Only phone I can think of is the Galaxy S and I already made that comparison.
EVOs and all the Droids aren't GSM phones.
Only phone I can think of is the Galaxy S and I already made that comparison.
EVOs and all the Droids aren't GSM phones.
akugami
Diamond Member
- Feb 14, 2005
- 6,210
- 2,551
- 136
SunnyD, with all due respect, remove the tin foil hat. Apple does not set and in no way controls the sales of used iPhones. It would be illegal for them to do so on new products much less used ones. Note that Apple technically does not control prices on new phones which would be illegally limiting fair trade. Instead prices on phones or other products are MSRP (manufacturer suggested retail price) and not set in stone. Granted most retailers follow that price so in reality it might as well be. For used phones, even if it were legal, it'd also be impossible to regulate prices for used phones considering how many ways they can be sold. So no, Apple in no way controls the prices on used phones.
What Apple does do is set their MSRP higher than products from competing companies. Hence the Apple tax. The so called Apple tax would not work if Apple does not have a reputation for higher quality. Earned or not, that is Apple's reputation and it allows them to set their new phones at a higher MSRP than competing phones. Even with that said, new iPhones are priced roughly the same as other top end phones. iPhones are set at $200 and $300 and for the most part, top end phones from competitors like the Droid X or Samsung Fascinate are set at $200 and on occasion we do see phones sell at $300 with a 2 year contract much like Apple's highest priced phones.
For new phones, Apple is priced at the high end of the cell phone market. They aren't priced above everyone else. Other companies have similarly priced phones. Apple's reputation is such that the value of their phones do not drop as fast as other phones. Furthermore, the high price is because they sell extremely well. iPhones outsell any one Android or other smart phone by a large margin and it is only Android as a whole that outsells iPhones. This further allows Apple to keep their phones highly priced. Apple's phones stay high due to the free market. If they weren't selling a ton of phones, Apple would be forced to lower the MSRP of the phones.
For used phones, Apple's products are regulated entirely by the free market. Apple's used phones are entirely because the market for used iPhones is enormous. Again, much like new iPhones, if the used iPhones weren't in high demand and selling very very well, the prices would drop. The prices of new iPhones can at least be partially attributed to Apple setting the price high but the prices of used iPhones are 100% set by the free market. The only thing that Apple does that would even remotely help prop up the used iPhone prices is to keep a high reputation (again earned or not is irrelevant). But Apple has no direct control over used iPhones and the Apple tax is irrelevant.
What Apple does do is set their MSRP higher than products from competing companies. Hence the Apple tax. The so called Apple tax would not work if Apple does not have a reputation for higher quality. Earned or not, that is Apple's reputation and it allows them to set their new phones at a higher MSRP than competing phones. Even with that said, new iPhones are priced roughly the same as other top end phones. iPhones are set at $200 and $300 and for the most part, top end phones from competitors like the Droid X or Samsung Fascinate are set at $200 and on occasion we do see phones sell at $300 with a 2 year contract much like Apple's highest priced phones.
For new phones, Apple is priced at the high end of the cell phone market. They aren't priced above everyone else. Other companies have similarly priced phones. Apple's reputation is such that the value of their phones do not drop as fast as other phones. Furthermore, the high price is because they sell extremely well. iPhones outsell any one Android or other smart phone by a large margin and it is only Android as a whole that outsells iPhones. This further allows Apple to keep their phones highly priced. Apple's phones stay high due to the free market. If they weren't selling a ton of phones, Apple would be forced to lower the MSRP of the phones.
For used phones, Apple's products are regulated entirely by the free market. Apple's used phones are entirely because the market for used iPhones is enormous. Again, much like new iPhones, if the used iPhones weren't in high demand and selling very very well, the prices would drop. The prices of new iPhones can at least be partially attributed to Apple setting the price high but the prices of used iPhones are 100% set by the free market. The only thing that Apple does that would even remotely help prop up the used iPhone prices is to keep a high reputation (again earned or not is irrelevant). But Apple has no direct control over used iPhones and the Apple tax is irrelevant.
Damm dude, before writing that long ass reply, re-read what hes trying to say.
Hes saying that iPhones are higher in price to comparable phones because of the "Apple tax(premium)".
Pretty sure he knows how the free market works.
I'm still trying to figure out what comparable phones that are priced unreasonable lower than iPhones.
BTW, I do agree that 2G and 3G are priced to high as they are slow as molasses but $200-$300 for a 3GS is comparable to what are out there.
I only buy 3Gs to bring back to VN because people want iPhones but cannot afford the 3GS, 4s.
Hes saying that iPhones are higher in price to comparable phones because of the "Apple tax(premium)".
Pretty sure he knows how the free market works.
I'm still trying to figure out what comparable phones that are priced unreasonable lower than iPhones.
BTW, I do agree that 2G and 3G are priced to high as they are slow as molasses but $200-$300 for a 3GS is comparable to what are out there.
I only buy 3Gs to bring back to VN because people want iPhones but cannot afford the 3GS, 4s.
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
SunnyD
Belgian Waffler
Actually, I don't bother lowballing people on Craigslist. I'm patient enough to wait for the GOOD deals... I don't buy used phones at full retail price. I know what phones are worth and price compare across several different venues. Then again, I am not easily parted with my money, which is why when I buy, I make sure I'm getting the best deal possible.
shortylickens
No Lifer
- Jul 15, 2003
- 80,287
- 17,081
- 136
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