Damn!

[MaverickBP]

i am not as far as dan inosanto obviously and whether or not i am farther in training then you in wing chun is something neither of us know. so when i say he taught me jkd...it meant he trained me in the lifestyle of bruce and the martial arts behind his way of life. but there are 3 things he couldnt not teach me as a kid. they are:

double pak sao
pak sao bil jee
pak sao lop sao

i have sense achieved double pak sao...but will never achieve the last two because those are the purist moves in wing chun and bruce made dan promise NEVER to teach those. either because teaching those moves would bring harm to dan or bruce didnt feel comfortable if he wasnt teaching it..either way dan is adament(spell check) about never teaching those. i only wish i were old enough to have trained with bruce himself.

 

[MaverickBP]

Originally posted by: Jehovah

Originally posted by: MaverickBP
you misunderstand me...jkd cannot be taught. as i said jkd is a way of life..not a martial art style. bruce lee said it himself. but the styles behind jkd come from bruces extensive training in kickboxing, jun fan, wing chun gung fu, boxing, etc

Ok, I'll make this an easy question then: within your "Wing Chun", how long does it take for yout student to get to a level high enough to learn Biu Tze (alternatively called Bil Jee)?

you speak of the third empty hand form(aka thrusting fingers)...that is NEVER taught to students

i have yet to see anyone worthy of being trained to that extent. most instructors will die never learning it.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: MaverickBP
i have sInCe achieved double pak sao

(I am a grammar Nazi; that I'll grant) But, maybe, we have a difference in vernacular - what are you talking about a "double" pak sao? Why in the world would you do a double pak sao? Ok, I'll put it in a way so it doesn't seem so interrovgative . . . in which situation would a double pak sau come into play?

Originally posted by: MaverickBP
you speak of the third empty hand form(aka thrusting fingers)...that is NEVER taught to students

So you mean "Bui Tze never leaves the door" yadda yadda yadda . . . for someone who's GM spoke against dogma, you guys sure seem steeped in it. /jab

Ok, I'll ask a yet simpler question that a person who's had ~ a month's training should know (so you don't think I'm prying for "secret techniques" or some of that BS jazz).

What is Tan Sao, and when would it be applied?

Lastly, as you can tell, and I'll be frank, I think a lot of the Wing Chun that is taught is hogwash, and the only way a martial art discussion to be had is through proof, which is impossible online (not spouting some machismo thing here, just saying that it's impossible at this juncture to prove anything since the "proof is in the pudding"). And, I do not mean any offense by this, well, maybe a little ( :evil: ) but you've yet to prove to me that your WC is just that . . . belongs in the W.C..

I driven around Illinois, not just around Chicago, checking out the state of JKD and other Wing Chun branches with "legitamate" lineages, which isn't worth shit. If you seriously think that the two are the same, you're sadly, saldy mistaken.

I've read all of Bruce Lee's work. I'm not a big fan, but I do admit that he's one of the most prevailing forces to bring it to the Western culture - looking at a strict timeline, Bruce Lee, as a fantastic athelete as he was, did not have much of an understanding in Wing Chun, nor did he spend enough time to spend with GGM Yip Man. I do not mean to offend you, too late I'm sure, but that's just my opinion. Having said that, the subtleties of Wing Tsun constantly amaze me, it is truly a complete style as far as I've seen. SO I do not see why there is a need to bring in other disciplines as fencing and boxing into the mix - from the way I understand it, the philosophies of the art are completely different, and do not mesh art all.

That's not saying much, but let me finish - the only drawback is that Wing Tsun requires a partner - which Bruce did not have.

Maybe I'm worng - maybe your explanation of Tan Sau, as I've asked above, fits right in with my view of the said technique or is so good that it blows my mind and I join JKD just to learn "true" Wing Chun!!!

. . ..

But at this juncture, I *highly* doubt that.

 

[MaverickBP]

no your not offending me..people always have different views otherwise we wouldnt have so many arts. and i did mean "since" but im at work so concentrating on anything but servers isnt an option.now to answer ur questions.

you asked about double pak sao. as you know i cannot explain that to you and IF you know what it is you already know its uses. please do not dishonor your art by asking that again.

second you asked about tan sao? tan sao has many uses (and many different names/additives) but popular is turning tan sao (begging hand) into a grab, closing the distance to ur opponent.

and again i told u that these so called "legitimate" jkd institutes are not legitimate. they are people who were either taught publicly in a class formation which is NOT how to train...or they read some books, add it to their style and think they can teach. these ppl need to be removed.

again u keep comparing jkd to wing...jkd = way of life wing = style. cannot be compared.

and if u know as much as u do about bui tze as u act like you do..please tell me where you learned this from and why you dishonor yourself by announcing your knowledge of it. you have shown today you are not worthy of such a move and i pray for you and whoever (if anyone) taught you the move that u never try to use it...anyone can learn an attack...but fortitude both physically and mentally need to achieved before such a move should ever be taught. many never get there...i doubt you are.

 

[MaverickBP]

also as you said we cannot know eachothers skill lvl through conversation..i stated that already. "proof is in the pudding" as u said. and yes alot of arts are hogwash. look at my sig and you'll see what i believe to be one of the wisest instructions ever taught. you cannot just "accept" the art your in. take what u can from it.....discard what doesnt work for you...and add your own mix. if you dont...youll never become anything besides a student. and dont think im saying im any better because im not.

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: MaverickBP
no your not offending me..people always have different views otherwise we wouldnt have so many arts. and i did mean "since" but im at work so concentrating on anything but servers isnt an option.now to answer ur questions.

you asked about double pak sao. as you know i cannot explain that to you and IF you know what it is you already know its uses. please do not dishonor your art by asking that again.

second you asked about tan sao? tan sao has many uses (and many different names/additives) but popular is turning tan sao (begging hand) into a grab, closing the distance to ur opponent.

and again i told u that these so called "legitimate" jkd institutes are not legitimate. they are people who were either taught publicly in a class formation which is NOT how to train...or they read some books, add it to their style and think they can teach. these ppl need to be removed.

again u keep comparing jkd to wing...jkd = way of life wing = style. cannot be compared.

and if u know as much as u do about bui tze as u act like you do..please tell me where you learned this from and why you dishonor yourself by announcing your knowledge of it. you have shown today you are not worthy of such a move and i pray for you and whoever (if anyone) taught you the move that u never try to use it...anyone can learn an attack...but fortitude both physically and mentally need to achieved before such a move should ever be taught. many never get there...i doubt you are.

Wowee - dogma rears its ugly head! Fantastic! What's the big deal about knowing Biu Tze? It's the highest empty hand form in the system, yes, but that means jack shit, especially on an online forum!
It's not like I'm spouting its applications here nor the motions of the form;, even if I did, Biu Tze never leaves the door because there are certain risks that are within the form, which endangers the user if the proper applications are not had; not because it's soo devastating that it should be secret!
The only "secret" to learning the system is through hard work, nothing else. If you're "ashamed" that I'm talking about a lot of the (admittedly) higher-level techniques (which no one understands without hard work and a high level of dedication), I'm dissappointed I even put in the thought and effort to talking with such a person.
God - yes, I do know better than act like a macho jock (well, at least in real life anyhow), but saying that I"m bringing shame and general distaste to the system by mentioning something that;

a. 99.99% of the people on the forums have no idea what it's about
b. Even the .01% need obscene amounts of training to really understand what it is anyhow.

That's beyond silly. I don't know how to put it into words.

It's just silly banter. I really am sorry that I got into this whole tangent today; now, if you don't mind, I have to go teach class (which I bring genral distaste to, apparently [admittedly, I do bring general distaste to the studio, but I like to keep that down] )

Edit:

-Tan Sau has only one use.
-Like I said, there might be a difference in vernacular, I've heard some techniques labeled differently than ours; and if you're talking about "double pak sau" in the same manner that I'm talking about, well, the concept itself is just downright stupid, no way around it. Hopefully, our labels are different. But if you do not want to discuss this any further, so be it.
-If you've been taught a philosophy, how/why apply it to Wing Chun movements? From what I've read, and as hokey as some parts are (oddly enough, I'm a Philosophy Major at a State University too), JKD encouraged people to find their own . . . "style". WHy Wing Chun? Hell, Why label it as Wing Chun?

 

[MaverickBP]

i understand your curiousity completely. i also understand no one knows what im talking about nor would know its me...but its not just an "art" to me...its my way of life. and i will not go against my ways. i am not ashamed for you in any way. you started this conversation off like you had honor for yourself and for your art. the past few posts have shown otherwise. some things cannot be taught. your immaturity on the subject is why we dont let things out the door. and it shows why your not ready to progress farther in your art. but we were all at your point in our lifes. when you get beyond it you will see and understand. and with understanding...comes knowledge..and within that lies the true power. so i will leave this thread alone now (hopefully) and will let you learn what is needed on your own. it is the only way

 

[Schadenfreude]

Originally posted by: MaverickBP
i understand your curiousity completely. i also understand no one knows what im talking about nor would know its me...but its not just an "art" to me...its my way of life. and i will not go against my ways. i am not ashamed for you in any way. you started this conversation off like you had honor for yourself and for your art. the past few posts have shown otherwise. some things cannot be taught. your immaturity on the subject is why we dont let things out the door. and it shows why your not ready to progress farther in your art. but we were all at your point in our lifes. when you get beyond it you will see and understand. and with understanding...comes knowledge..and within that lies the true power. so i will leave this thread alone now (hopefully) and will let you learn what is needed on your own. it is the only way

Originally posted by: Jehovah

Fat chicks need lovin' too . . . but they gotta pay.

(Now I'm just being an ass - completely uncalled for)

Anyhoo, obviously we have a difference of opinion about how we conduct ourselves regarding the preservation of our techniques. So be it. But for the last time, and this is being completely being serious, please explain to me why/how I'm acting immature.

I'm sure the scatter of cusses and the like doesn't help much, but saying stuff like "If you don't know, you don't know" is useless drivel . . . odd coming from a professed daoist, true, but what can I say?