Damn you math!!

TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,800
45
91
You guys know what I am taking?

Anyway, we're on limits.. (woo..)

Determine the limit of the transcendental function (if it exists).

Need some help on these three. Maybe I don't remember some trig identities or something... (I looked them up too... so...)

Anyway, here are the problems, could use some help.

lim (sin^2(x))/x
x->0

lim (1 - cos(h))^2
h->0 h

lim 1 - (e^-x)
x->0 (e^x) - 1

I know the last one probably is supposed to somehow end up like (1 + x)^(1/x) because that ends up equaling e. Hmm. Maybe I turn e into (1+x)^(1/x) ?

Parenthesis on the last one are just to avoid confusion... I don't think we have superscript and subscript here?

There was a typo in first problem. fixed now... :/ Heat is getting to me here. It's like 80F+ in my room.
 
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Anubis

No Lifer
Aug 31, 2001
78,712
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tbqhwy.com
math_stupid.jpg
 

TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,800
45
91
0
0
don't know

I did these in my head so they're almost certainly wrong. CBF getting pen to paper.

Yeah, just because I have the answer doesn't mean I get credit. I need the method of doing it.

What does sin^2(x) even equal in trig identities? :/

Do I have multiply top and bottom by X, maybe pull out X somehow from top and then I have

lim (x) * lim sin^2(x)/(X^2)
x->0 .... x->0

So that way I have 0 * 1... ?

Idk if that's legit or not.

Typo in first post. It's all over X.
 
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lxskllr

No Lifer
Nov 30, 2004
60,578
10,937
126
You're only cheating yourself if you get someone to do the work for you. Why bother going to school? Get more book time, and figure it out. That'll train you to be more analytical.
 

Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
23
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The first one use L'Hôpital's rule.
The second just plug in.
The third use L'Hôpital's rule.

Use L'Hôpital's rule if you get 0/0 or ∞/∞ when just plugging in. :p
 
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TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,800
45
91
You're only cheating yourself if you get someone to do the work for you. Why bother going to school? Get more book time, and figure it out. That'll train you to be more analytical.

I don't have to learn that way... I've actually never done homework before and passed calculus with ease just by watching people do problems.

I'm only retaking calculus because I forgot it all after 2.5+ years of not doing it. :thumbsup:
 

TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,800
45
91
yeah umm the first two straight forward plug in number and done.
The last one pretty sure you should use L'Hôpital's rule, as it gives 0/0 if just plugging in. :p

They all result in 0/0.

We're not at L'hopital's rule yet.
 

TridenT

Lifer
Sep 4, 2006
16,800
45
91
The first one use L'Hôpital's rule.
The second just plug in.
The third use L'Hôpital's rule.

Use L'Hôpital's rule if you get 0/0 or ∞/∞ when just plugging in. :p

The second results in 0/0. They all result in 0/0.

We don't use L'Hopital's rule yet. We're not at that stage. :colbert:
 

PieIsAwesome

Diamond Member
Feb 11, 2007
4,054
1
0
First is simple, 0. Graph it and its even more obvious. If you graph it, it seems to be 0.
Second one gives you 0/0 if you simply plug 0 in. I don't remember, but I think 0/0 may be considered indeterminate, so the answer isn't just 0. You probably have to simplify and play around with the problem so that when you plug in 0 you get a good answer. In general, if you get something weird like that, it probably means you need to play with the problem. Or maybe an indeterminate answer is fine, consult your book about that.
3rd also seems to be indeterminate with 0/0. See above.

EDIT: Oops, didn't see the /x part for the first problem, nevermind about that. Still looks like its 0, though. Probably need to find an identity for sin^2(x). I don't feel like doing this so this is all I'm going to say.
 
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Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
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They all result in 0/0.

We're not at L'hopital's rule yet.

You fail at formatting, closer examination says yeah in which case I would use L'Hôpital's rule.

Without it I don't quite remember well for the most part but would guess that...

The first one I think you should use the identity sin^2(x) = (1-cos(2x))/2
The second factor out and use identity cos^2(x)=(1+cos(2x)/2 Then break up the limits.
The last I can't remember. :(

That means the first two should I think give ∞ as you have some value c/0
The last I know should be 1 from L'Hopital's rule and double checking on wolframalpha. :p
But without using that still pulling a blank. :(
 
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Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
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I apparently can no longer do mental math. :(
lim x>0 (sin^2(x))/x = lim x>0 (.5-.5(cos(0))/x =.5/∞ -.5/∞ =0


lim x>0 (1-cos(x))^2/x =lim x>0 ((cos^2(x)-2cos(x)+1))/x
= lim x> ((.5cos(2x)+.5 -2cos(x)+1))/x =.5/0+.5/0-2/0=1/0 =0

The third after much work still pulling blanks if not using L'Hopital's rule.
 
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Matthiasa

Diamond Member
May 4, 2009
5,755
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81
Last one multiply top and bottom by e^x, reduces to e^-x, evaluates to 1.

Nope doesn't work that way still leaves it at 0/0. You have to remember that's just multiplying by one 0/0 *1=0/0

I'm going to say for the lat one you are going to have to use the delta epsilon definition of the limit.
 
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DrPizza

Administrator Elite Member Goat Whisperer
Mar 5, 2001
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How many of you are going to say "L'Hopital's Rule" without figuring out that he hasn't made it to L'Hopital's Rule yet???

OP: You should have learned the limit as x approaches zero of sinx/x
(I prefer sinx instead of sinh, since sinh has another meaning: hyperbolic sin function. But, if you like "h", knock yourself out. At least we know you're not the 2nd account of Arcadio.)

Anyway, the limit of sinx/x as x-> 0 = 1. This is generally proven by using the squeezing theorem. Consider for a moment a unit circle. Without loss of generality, draw a radius to the circle in the first quadrant. Now, from the intersection of that radius and the circle, make a triangle by drawing the 3rd side to the point (1,0). Extend the radius & draw a vertical line from the point (1,0) until it reaches the extended radius forming a larger triangle. Label the angle between the radius and the x-axis with "x"

It's pretty simple to see that the area of the sector of the circle formed by the radius is greater than the area of the smaller circle, and less than the area of the larger circle. Damn, this is hard to do without a picture.

Since the area of a circle is pi r², and this circle has a radius of 1, the area of this circle is pi. The sector of the circle is just a fractional part of the circle. If it was 30 degrees, it would be 30/360ths of the circle. But, since we never use degrees in calculus, at least not in my classroom - degrees are for Babylonians and idiots who can't think in radians. I digress again.) The portion of the circle you have is x/(2pi) So, you have that portion of pi (multiply them together) and the area of that sector is x/2. The area of the big triangle is pretty simple to figure out - (1/2)(base)(height.) The base is obviously 1, and the 8th grader sohcahtoa chant can be used to find the height, as the tangent(x) = height over bottom of the triangle (which is one.) So, the area of that triangle is tanx/2. Likewise, the area of the smaller triangle works out to sinx/2.
So, .5sinx <= x/2 <= .5tanx
Oh, I forgot to mention, I included = because what if the angle is zero, huh? If the angle is zero, the area of each triangle (and the sector) is zero.

Anyway, a little manipulation of this: multiple all three parts by 2 to get rid of the damn fractions.
sinx <= x <= tanx
Now, divide each by sinx
1 <= x/sinx <=tanx/sinx
1 <= x/sinx <= 1/cosx
Take the reciprocals of each, which will reverse the order of the inequalities (1/3 is less than 1/2, but 3 is greater than 2)
1 >= sinx/x >= cosx

So, the function f(x)=sinx/x will lie between 1 and the function g(x)=cosx
As x approaches zero, the limit of 1 is 1, the limit of cosx is also 1.
What value of sinx/x works for this:
1 >= sinx/x >= 1??? The answer is: 1


So, now that I proved that the limit of sinx/x as x->0 is one, let's use it.

What's the limit as x ->0 of sin7x/sin6x? Damn, that doesn't look like what I just proved.

Well, multiply the top and bottom of that fraction by 1/x. No problem since x never actually equals zero.
lim [sin7x/x] / [sin6x/x]
heyyyyy, it's looking closer.
Multiple the fraction in the numerator by 7/7, and the fraction in the denominator by 6/6
[7sin(7x)/(7x)]/[6sin(6x)/(6x)]
Now, if you know the limit as x->a of f(x) and the limit as x->a of g(x), then the limit of (f(x))(g(x)) is just the product of the limits, limit of the sums is the sum of the limits. etc. (as long as you're not dividing by zero.)

So, the sin(7x)/(7x) part approaches 1, the sin(6x)/(6x) part also approaches 1. So, you have 7 times 1 divided by (6 times 1) = 7/6

Sidenote: with L'hopital's rule, this problem would take about, ohhhh, 2 seconds.

Now, for your problems, you need to manipulate the function inside the limit so that part of it matches the pattern (sin(some angle))/(some angle) That part of the function approaches 1 as x approaches zero.
 

TecHNooB

Diamond Member
Sep 10, 2005
7,458
1
76
How many of you are going to say "L'Hopital's Rule" without figuring out that he hasn't made it to L'Hopital's Rule yet???

OP: You should have learned the limit as x approaches zero of sinx/x
(I prefer sinx instead of sinh, since sinh has another meaning: hyperbolic sin function. But, if you like "h", knock yourself out. At least we know you're not the 2nd account of Arcadio.)

Anyway, the limit of sinx/x as x-> 0 = 1. This is generally proven by using the squeezing theorem. Consider for a moment a unit circle. Without loss of generality, draw a radius to the circle in the first quadrant. Now, from the intersection of that radius and the circle, make a triangle by drawing the 3rd side to the point (1,0). Extend the radius & draw a vertical line from the point (1,0) until it reaches the extended radius forming a larger triangle. Label the angle between the radius and the x-axis with "x"

It's pretty simple to see that the area of the sector of the circle formed by the radius is greater than the area of the smaller circle, and less than the area of the larger circle. Damn, this is hard to do without a picture.

Since the area of a circle is pi r², and this circle has a radius of 1, the area of this circle is pi. The sector of the circle is just a fractional part of the circle. If it was 30 degrees, it would be 30/360ths of the circle. But, since we never use degrees in calculus, at least not in my classroom - degrees are for Babylonians and idiots who can't think in radians. I digress again.) The portion of the circle you have is x/(2pi) So, you have that portion of pi (multiply them together) and the area of that sector is x/2. The area of the big triangle is pretty simple to figure out - (1/2)(base)(height.) The base is obviously 1, and the 8th grader sohcahtoa chant can be used to find the height, as the tangent(x) = height over bottom of the triangle (which is one.) So, the area of that triangle is tanx/2. Likewise, the area of the smaller triangle works out to sinx/2.
So, .5sinx <= x/2 <= .5tanx
Oh, I forgot to mention, I included = because what if the angle is zero, huh? If the angle is zero, the area of each triangle (and the sector) is zero.

Anyway, a little manipulation of this: multiple all three parts by 2 to get rid of the damn fractions.
sinx <= x <= tanx
Now, divide each by sinx
1 <= x/sinx <=tanx/sinx
1 <= x/sinx <= 1/cosx
Take the reciprocals of each, which will reverse the order of the inequalities (1/3 is less than 1/2, but 3 is greater than 2)
1 >= sinx/x >= cosx

So, the function f(x)=sinx/x will lie between 1 and the function g(x)=cosx
As x approaches zero, the limit of 1 is 1, the limit of cosx is also 1.
What value of sinx/x works for this:
1 >= sinx/x >= 1??? The answer is: 1


So, now that I proved that the limit of sinx/x as x->0 is one, let's use it.

What's the limit as x ->0 of sin7x/sin6x? Damn, that doesn't look like what I just proved.

Well, multiply the top and bottom of that fraction by 1/x. No problem since x never actually equals zero.
lim [sin7x/x] / [sin6x/x]
heyyyyy, it's looking closer.
Multiple the fraction in the numerator by 7/7, and the fraction in the denominator by 6/6
[7sin(7x)/(7x)]/[6sin(6x)/(6x)]
Now, if you know the limit as x->a of f(x) and the limit as x->a of g(x), then the limit of (f(x))(g(x)) is just the product of the limits, limit of the sums is the sum of the limits. etc. (as long as you're not dividing by zero.)

So, the sin(7x)/(7x) part approaches 1, the sin(6x)/(6x) part also approaches 1. So, you have 7 times 1 divided by (6 times 1) = 7/6

Sidenote: with L'hopital's rule, this problem would take about, ohhhh, 2 seconds.

Now, for your problems, you need to manipulate the function inside the limit so that part of it matches the pattern (sin(some angle))/(some angle) That part of the function approaches 1 as x approaches zero.

this is why you use el hospital rule
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
2
81
Haha, you're screwed! Only newbs take calc again to relearn everything. Everyone else uses a computer to solve their shit.