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Damn you Harley-Davidson!

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Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Even the new 72-degree liquid-cooled engine is fully Buell-designed (and therefore fully Harley-designed since Harley owns 100% of Buell), though manufacturing is farmed out to Rotax.

This is what I was thinking of. I read this in Motorcyclist or one of those mags about 6 months ago. They had a big article on Eric Buell and his new sport bike. I know that Buell is owned by H-D but H-D did not design or make that engine. Buell operates as a separate company but answers to the H-D board of directors. Like you said, it's a Rotax engine. 😉

All design and engineering was done by Buell (and therefore, Harley). It was a clean-sheet design. Rotax just does the grunt work of building it. That doesn't make it a "Rotax engine" in my book.

As far as Buell "operating as a separate company", this seems like simple misdirection. It would be incredibly stupid not to pool resources. The two companies share addresses for pete's sake. It's naive to assume that there isn't crossover between the engineering resources.

ZV
 
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Even the new 72-degree liquid-cooled engine is fully Buell-designed (and therefore fully Harley-designed since Harley owns 100% of Buell), though manufacturing is farmed out to Rotax.

This is what I was thinking of. I read this in Motorcyclist or one of those mags about 6 months ago. They had a big article on Eric Buell and his new sport bike. I know that Buell is owned by H-D but H-D did not design or make that engine. Buell operates as a separate company but answers to the H-D board of directors. Like you said, it's a Rotax engine. 😉

All design and engineering was done by Buell (and therefore, Harley). It was a clean-sheet design. Rotax just does the grunt work of building it. That doesn't make it a "Rotax engine" in my book.

As far as Buell "operating as a separate company", this seems like simple misdirection. It would be incredibly stupid not to pool resources. The two companies share addresses for pete's sake. It's naive to assume that there isn't crossover between the engineering resources.

ZV

Text

The Buell 1125R Helicon engine is a high-performance, 72-degree DOHC liquid-cooled V-Twin specified by Buell and designed in collaboration with BRP-Rotax, one of the premier recreational-engine manufacturers in the world. Buell provided a detailed specifications list to BRP-Rotax, outlining powertrain requirements to meet the performance goals of the Buell 1125R. Buell also directly contributed technology and engineering on a number of key areas, including the compensating front sprocket, transmission layout, the shift mechanism, engine cases, pistons, intake, exhaust, and new DDFI 3 EFI system. All major components of the Helicon engine are unique to Buell and developed specifically for the Buell 1125R, although a few components, such as the stator and various fasteners, are used in other BRP-Rotax products. The new Helicon engine will remain exclusive to Buell. The Helicon engine will be assembled by BRP-Rotax in Austria. The Buell 1125R motorcycle will be assembled by Buell in East Troy, Wisconsin.

Doesn't seem like there is any crossover between the engineering resources at Harley-Davidon and Buell actually. The only pooling of resources I see is between Buell and Rotax. At least on this bike.

BTW-I've read that Rotax is making engines for another Buell motorcycle as well.
 
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Even the new 72-degree liquid-cooled engine is fully Buell-designed (and therefore fully Harley-designed since Harley owns 100% of Buell), though manufacturing is farmed out to Rotax.

This is what I was thinking of. I read this in Motorcyclist or one of those mags about 6 months ago. They had a big article on Eric Buell and his new sport bike. I know that Buell is owned by H-D but H-D did not design or make that engine. Buell operates as a separate company but answers to the H-D board of directors. Like you said, it's a Rotax engine. 😉

All design and engineering was done by Buell (and therefore, Harley). It was a clean-sheet design. Rotax just does the grunt work of building it. That doesn't make it a "Rotax engine" in my book.

As far as Buell "operating as a separate company", this seems like simple misdirection. It would be incredibly stupid not to pool resources. The two companies share addresses for pete's sake. It's naive to assume that there isn't crossover between the engineering resources.

ZV

Text

The Buell 1125R Helicon engine is a high-performance, 72-degree DOHC liquid-cooled V-Twin specified by Buell and designed in collaboration with BRP-Rotax, one of the premier recreational-engine manufacturers in the world. Buell provided a detailed specifications list to BRP-Rotax, outlining powertrain requirements to meet the performance goals of the Buell 1125R. Buell also directly contributed technology and engineering on a number of key areas, including the compensating front sprocket, transmission layout, the shift mechanism, engine cases, pistons, intake, exhaust, and new DDFI 3 EFI system. All major components of the Helicon engine are unique to Buell and developed specifically for the Buell 1125R, although a few components, such as the stator and various fasteners, are used in other BRP-Rotax products. The new Helicon engine will remain exclusive to Buell. The Helicon engine will be assembled by BRP-Rotax in Austria. The Buell 1125R motorcycle will be assembled by Buell in East Troy, Wisconsin.

Doesn't seem like there is any crossover between the engineering resources at Harley-Davidon and Buell actually. The only pooling of resources I see is between Buell and Rotax. At least on this bike.

BTW-I've read that Rotax is making engines for another Buell motorcycle as well.

It's a Harley engine. I am too lazy to look for it but I have an issue of Canadian Biker and there is an article talking about Eric Buells history and how the company has decided to use HD engines from now on.

This statement:

All major components of the Helicon engine are unique to Buell and developed specifically for the Buell 1125R


Doesn't mean that it's not a HDengine, because Buell is owned by HD and uses their engines as a base. Unless Canadian Biker is lying...

 
Originally posted by: DVad3r

It's a Harley engine. I am too lazy to look for it but I have an issue of Canadian Biker and there is an article talking about Eric Buells history and how the company has decided to use HD engines from now on.

This statement:

All major components of the Helicon engine are unique to Buell and developed specifically for the Buell 1125R

Doesn't mean that it's not a HDengine, because Buell is owned by HD and uses their engines as a base. Unless Canadian Biker is lying...

Buell used to use Harley engines exclusively for all their bikes but for this bike and a few others they are now using Rotax sourced powerplants. It is definitely NOT a Harley-Davidson engine.

Rotax isn't taking Harley motors and reworking them. It is a completely different design than the Harley engine. Harley motors are a 45-degree air cooled v-twin engines, the engine used in this bike is a 72-degree liquid cooled v-twin...a completely different motor.
 
Okay, I found the article I read.

Erik Buell, founder and Chief Technical Officer of the motorcycle company that bears his name, has never been one to stand still. His diligent team of engineers and designers have garnered hundreds of patents for the development of their air-cooled race bikes. While that might be enough to please just about anyone, Buell knew that his company?which is owned by Harley-Davidson?had to make a significant change if it wanted to gain mass appeal in the sports bike market. Harley has been providing Buell with custom designed versions of its air-cooled V-twin engines since its inception in 1993 and that has posed a problem for the sports bike manufacturer?not that it was sourcing from Harley, but what it was getting. Sports bike aficionados eschew air-cooled engines because they lack power and reliability due to the need of a constant flow of air to manage heat dissipation. Liquid-cooled motors can operate at top performance regardless of riding conditions.

Buell didn?t want to just develop a liquid-cooled engine to satisfy his company?s customers, but he wanted to set new benchmarks in performance and innovation. Harley already had its liquid-cooled Revolution engine, developed with Porsche Engineering for the 2002 V-Rod, but Buell wanted something more compact. Knowing that his relatively small team would be unable to design, engineer and manu-facture the engine itself?not to mention the fact that Harley was busy developing its next-generation engines and products?Buell turned to Porsche Engineering and BRP-Rotax (who supplies motorcycle engines to Aprilia and BMW) to submit proposals on what they could bring to the table in terms of development resources.

?We talked to a number of people about the project. Porsche was a possibility, but we were all impressed with the Rotax team?s style. Their way of thinking was a significantly better fit than Porsche?s was,? says Buell, who dedicated five of his design engineers to the 3.5 year project that eventually resulted in the Helicon engine: A compact 72° 1,125-cc V-Twin producing 146 hp at the crankshaft.
?The 72° angle turned out to be the best compromise for packaging. We considered a 90° but that packaging was too difficult to work within our chassis design,? Buell adds.

The Buell engineering team laid out specific requirements for the overall weight and power band, as well as the design of the crankcase, clutch and shift mechanism. Each is closely related to the chassis design. Rotax, meanwhile, worked on engineering the engine?s internal components and transmission configuration. Among the key attributes of the Helicon:

* The 72° angle allows the engine to be located far forward in the chassis, helping to limit weight distribution to 54% on the front tire, while reducing vibration.
* Three balance shafts: Two designed to cancel primary rotating imbalance and a third to cancel the rocking couple.
* ? Displacement: 1125 cc chosen for optimal 103-mm bore and 67.5-mm stroke for better breathing and reduced friction, resulting in increased rpm (redline: 10,500 rpm).
* Dual overhead cam design features a self-adjusting chain drive on each cylinder to the intake cam, and gear drive from the intake to the exhaust cam. Less space is needed over the cylinder head when compared to a two-sprocket design, and overall weight is reduced.
* Valves actuated with finger followers adjusted with shims, a design commonly found in Formula 1 engines and used in various diesel engine applications. This results in lower friction and quicker valve opening, while eliminating valve float and providing for a steep valve angle of 18°. Magnesium valve covers reduce weight.
* Integrated dry sump oiling reduces internal windage losses, and an integrated oil reservoir on the lower left side of the crankcase helps to keep the engine compact.

Buell?s newest bike, the 1125R, marks the most significant change in powertrain since the company?s founding.

Development of the Helicon?s piston and ring pack was particularly tricky, Buell says, because of the high durability targets established by the team: ?We did a ton of FEA [finite element analysis] work on those pieces to meet the targets.?

The Helicon team made ?significant breakthroughs? and have filed patents for the development of the break-away engine mounts on the frame and fuel tank that result in improved crash performance, along with the ECU-controlled fuel pump that modulates fuel delivery based on specific commands from the ECU. The rotatable mounting of the engine itself helps to improve the ease of serviceability of valves, and is awaiting patent approval. ?The engineering team should be happy with what we have accomplished because none of these innovations are insignificant,? Buell says. ?What?s most amazing is that we self-funded this engine without Harley?s help.?
 
Oh nevermind, the Rotax is def not HD then. I find it funny how Porsche is the master of all and everyone gets help with engines from them lol.
 
Originally posted by: DVad3r
Oh nevermind, the Rotax is def not HD then. I find it funny how Porsche is the master of all and everyone gets help with engines from them lol.

Yeah, I thought that was interesting too.

The v-rod is a cool looking bike but it's just not my thing. Maybe if I rode one I'd feel differently. I might have to take a Harley out for a test ride one day just to see what it's all about.

If I do, I'll post an honest write up about it.
 
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: DVad3r
Oh nevermind, the Rotax is def not HD then. I find it funny how Porsche is the master of all and everyone gets help with engines from them lol.

Yeah, I thought that was interesting too.

The v-rod is a cool looking bike but it's just not my thing. Maybe if I rode one I'd feel differently. I might have to take a Harley out for a test ride one day just to see what it's all about.

If I do, I'll post an honest write up about it.

I've never rode a vrod either, but from reading it seems to handle pretty well and has some serious grunt coming out of corners. Watching some vids I like the fact that you can throw down the throttle and the fat tire at the back grips it all, launching you forward, without much danger of popping a wheelie since the bike is heavy and elongated. Good drag bike 🙂
 
Originally posted by: DVad3r
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: DVad3r
Oh nevermind, the Rotax is def not HD then. I find it funny how Porsche is the master of all and everyone gets help with engines from them lol.

Yeah, I thought that was interesting too.

The v-rod is a cool looking bike but it's just not my thing. Maybe if I rode one I'd feel differently. I might have to take a Harley out for a test ride one day just to see what it's all about.

If I do, I'll post an honest write up about it.

I've never rode a vrod either, but from reading it seems to handle pretty well and has some serious grunt coming out of corners. Watching some vids I like the fact that you can throw down the throttle and the fat tire at the back grips it all, launching you forward, without much danger of popping a wheelie since the bike is heavy and elongated. Good drag bike 🙂

Hayabusa is a good drag bike too...probably one of the best but I don't want one of those either.

If I had a Harley it would have to be in conjunction with another bike. I couldn't have that as my only bike. I like canyon carving too much. 😀
 
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: DVad3r
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Originally posted by: DVad3r
Oh nevermind, the Rotax is def not HD then. I find it funny how Porsche is the master of all and everyone gets help with engines from them lol.

Yeah, I thought that was interesting too.

The v-rod is a cool looking bike but it's just not my thing. Maybe if I rode one I'd feel differently. I might have to take a Harley out for a test ride one day just to see what it's all about.

If I do, I'll post an honest write up about it.

I've never rode a vrod either, but from reading it seems to handle pretty well and has some serious grunt coming out of corners. Watching some vids I like the fact that you can throw down the throttle and the fat tire at the back grips it all, launching you forward, without much danger of popping a wheelie since the bike is heavy and elongated. Good drag bike 🙂

Hayabusa is a good drag bike too...probably one of the best but I don't want one of those either.

If I had a Harley it would have to be in conjunction with another bike. I couldn't have that as my only bike. I like canyon carving too much. 😀

Ya owning more than 1 bike is sweet, maybe in the future I will, but insurance is way too insane in Canada for me to afford that at this point in time. Id love a nice BMW R touring bike or maybe a Moto Guzzi tourer.

My dad just picked up a bike himself last week, it's a mint 1984 Honda Sabre V65 with only 29 k km on it, physically it looks like new, no scratches or dents. I think he actually made an investment because that bike will be a serious retro pretty soon, if not already. It has crazy specs for it's time too, 120 hp, 1100 CC liquid cooled engine, crazy top speed and aceeleration, apperently it was the worlds fastest bike for a few years.

We are getting it tuned up pretty soon. Once we get a day where there's no snow and nice dry roads, it will be time to test it out 🙂

 
Originally posted by: DVad3r
Ya owning more than 1 bike is sweet, maybe in the future I will, but insurance is way too insane in Canada for me to afford that at this point in time. Id love a nice BMW R touring bike or maybe a Moto Guzzi tourer.

My dad just picked up a bike himself last week, it's a mint 1984 Honda Sabre V65 with only 29 k km on it, physically it looks like new, no scratches or dents. I think he actually made an investment because that bike will be a serious retro pretty soon, if not already. It has crazy specs for it's time too, 120 hp, 1100 CC liquid cooled engine, crazy top speed and aceeleration, apperently it was the worlds fastest bike for a few years.

We are getting it tuned up pretty soon. Once we get a day where there's no snow and nice dry roads, it will be time to test it out 🙂

Yeah, I can't swing it right now either. Raising a son, wife's business is slow, etc...someday though, when this economy gets better maybe.

I'd like a Ducati Monster, some sort of sport touring bike and maybe a Harley.

You can't go wrong with old Hondas IMO. I had one until about a year ago ('79 CB750)...sold it for more than I paid for it in fact.

I wouldn't mind picking up another one at some point but it would have to be an earlier model...maybe one with a cafe chop. 😉
 
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Text

The Buell 1125R Helicon engine is a high-performance, 72-degree DOHC liquid-cooled V-Twin specified by Buell and designed in collaboration with BRP-Rotax, one of the premier recreational-engine manufacturers in the world. Buell provided a detailed specifications list to BRP-Rotax, outlining powertrain requirements to meet the performance goals of the Buell 1125R. Buell also directly contributed technology and engineering on a number of key areas, including the compensating front sprocket, transmission layout, the shift mechanism, engine cases, pistons, intake, exhaust, and new DDFI 3 EFI system. All major components of the Helicon engine are unique to Buell and developed specifically for the Buell 1125R, although a few components, such as the stator and various fasteners, are used in other BRP-Rotax products. The new Helicon engine will remain exclusive to Buell. The Helicon engine will be assembled by BRP-Rotax in Austria. The Buell 1125R motorcycle will be assembled by Buell in East Troy, Wisconsin.

Doesn't seem like there is any crossover between the engineering resources at Harley-Davidon and Buell actually. The only pooling of resources I see is between Buell and Rotax. At least on this bike.

BTW-I've read that Rotax is making engines for another Buell motorcycle as well.

You're right, that engine is not (and will not be) used in a motorcycle that carries the Harley-Davidson nameplate.

But you're committing the same error that I pointed out before if you think that the engineers who designed the engine at Buell do not also work on the engines used in bikes that carry the Harley-Davidson nameplate. It makes no sense at all for Harley-Davidson Industries to duplicate engineering jobs just to keep Buell and Harley-Davidson people from working on each others' bikes. Companies just plain aren't run that way. The same "Buell" engineers who contributed their time and expertise on the Buell engine almost certainly have worked on "Harley" projects as well. Engineers do tend to work on more than one project during their careers.

ZV
 
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Text

The Buell 1125R Helicon engine is a high-performance, 72-degree DOHC liquid-cooled V-Twin specified by Buell and designed in collaboration with BRP-Rotax, one of the premier recreational-engine manufacturers in the world. Buell provided a detailed specifications list to BRP-Rotax, outlining powertrain requirements to meet the performance goals of the Buell 1125R. Buell also directly contributed technology and engineering on a number of key areas, including the compensating front sprocket, transmission layout, the shift mechanism, engine cases, pistons, intake, exhaust, and new DDFI 3 EFI system. All major components of the Helicon engine are unique to Buell and developed specifically for the Buell 1125R, although a few components, such as the stator and various fasteners, are used in other BRP-Rotax products. The new Helicon engine will remain exclusive to Buell. The Helicon engine will be assembled by BRP-Rotax in Austria. The Buell 1125R motorcycle will be assembled by Buell in East Troy, Wisconsin.

Doesn't seem like there is any crossover between the engineering resources at Harley-Davidon and Buell actually. The only pooling of resources I see is between Buell and Rotax. At least on this bike.

BTW-I've read that Rotax is making engines for another Buell motorcycle as well.

You're right, that engine is not (and will not be) used in a motorcycle that carries the Harley-Davidson nameplate.

But you're committing the same error that I pointed out before if you think that the engineers who designed the engine at Buell do not also work on the engines used in bikes that carry the Harley-Davidson nameplate. It makes no sense at all for Harley-Davidson Industries to duplicate engineering jobs just to keep Buell and Harley-Davidson people from working on each others' bikes. Companies just plain aren't run that way. The same "Buell" engineers who contributed their time and expertise on the Buell engine almost certainly have worked on "Harley" projects as well. Engineers do tend to work on more than one project during their careers.

ZV

Read the article I posted. It would seem that Buell does have their own engineers.

Just admit it, you were wrong. 😛😉
 
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Read the article I posted. It would seem that Buell does have their own engineers.

Just admit it, you were wrong. 😛😉

Sorry, but shorthand used in an article is hardly conclusive. Articles talk about "Pontiac engineers" or "Chevrolet engineers" or "Cadillac engineers", or "GMC Engineers" too, but the fact is that those are all from the same pool. They're all GM.

Harley owns Buell. Every single Buell engineer is, by definition, a Harley engineer.

ZV
 
Originally posted by: Zenmervolt
Originally posted by: JulesMaximus
Read the article I posted. It would seem that Buell does have their own engineers.

Just admit it, you were wrong. 😛😉

Sorry, but shorthand used in an article is hardly conclusive. Articles talk about "Pontiac engineers" or "Chevrolet engineers" or "Cadillac engineers", or "GMC Engineers" too, but the fact is that those are all from the same pool. They're all GM.

Harley owns Buell. Every single Buell engineer is, by definition, a Harley engineer.

ZV

So, that would be a no? 😛

I work for a company that is owned by another company. None of our engineers work on our parent company's projects and our company operates wholly independent of our parent company.
 
Wow still arguing about the engineers? It's already been said, all the engineers work for Porsche.

/thread

😉
 
Here's a link to a write up about the Roehr sport bike. http://www.motorcycle.com/manu...50sc-review-86824.html
It's ugly as 9 miles of bad road.

JulesMaximus, go test drive a V-Rod, you really will like it. They don't vibrate, they just go like hell, and there is nothing on the street that looks as sharp as a V-Rod. It's so far removed from the air cooled Harley's you'd think it came from a different company.
The Discovery channel did a documentary several years back called "Birth of the V-rod", interesting stuff. The engine was designed with Porsche, and most of the engine parts are made in Germany. It's not your daddy's Harley.
 
Originally posted by: Greenman
Here's a link to a write up about the Roehr sport bike. http://www.motorcycle.com/manu...50sc-review-86824.html
It's ugly as 9 miles of bad road.

JulesMaximus, go test drive a V-Rod, you really will like it. They don't vibrate, they just go like hell, and there is nothing on the street that looks as sharp as a V-Rod. It's so far removed from the air cooled Harley's you'd think it came from a different company.
The Discovery channel did a documentary several years back called "Birth of the V-rod", interesting stuff. The engine was designed with Porsche, and most of the engine parts are made in Germany. It's not your daddy's Harley.

I might have seen part of that actually or at least I saw it on my DVR guide. I'll check it out next time I get the chance.

I love Discovery channel. I actually love American Chopper too believe it or not. They make some really sweet bikes.
 
I watched the National Geographic Mega Factories special on one of the HD plants, it was pretty neat.

One thing that is cool about HD as shown in the video is the passion in the people that work there. These guys love their jobs, have Tattoo's of the company, are all members of HD clubs, etc. You don't see that anywhere else, most people just go to their jobs to grunt it out.

I like the whole HD scene personally, can't wait to pay a trip to the new HD museum this summer.

Anyone got torrent link to that birth of a vrod vid?
 
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