Damn. Lost another 31 more Marines.

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: mrrman
it will never end unless all the troups are pulled out...people will be killed in some form or an other

We lost a kid here last year when an ammo truck flipped over. Should we pull out of Japan? It will never end. Period.

Aircraft crash because large metal objects were never meant to fly. FACT OF LIFE. This helo could have just as easily gone down at Camp Pendleton or Futenma MCAS, Okinawa. In fact, a Marine helo DID crash at Futenma last year, but no one was killed fortunately, which was blind luck since the boom snapped off mid-flight.

One crashed vic. Fort Hood, Tx in December too...killed 7 including one general officer

[Edit] And yes, to be totally correct, army => soldiers, marine corps => marines, navy => sailors, air force => airmen

 

[Phokus]

fvck you bush

 

[SSP]

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: Phokus
fvck you bush

:roll:

Thank God there's a highly-politicized war going on right now, otherwise it seems a lot of you wouldn't "care" about serviceman deaths at all.

In the active Army alone (e.g. not counting reserves, National Guard, marines, air force, navy, and coast guard), accidents similar to this one, outside of the two current combat zones account for over 250 soldiers deaths per year...

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Jfrag

Originally posted by: mrrman
it will never end unless all the troups are pulled out...people will be killed in some form or an other

If we pull them out now you totally emasculate their honor and step on volunteerism at its finest. I served for 10 years in the infantry in the US Army, and I find it so disturbing to hear people say they support the troops, but at the same time don't support what the troops do. It's a contradiction in terms. To support them properly you have to stand behind them and their task. As much as it turns your stomach or makes you wring your hands, this is their job. It's not like they don't understand this fact, in fact they understand it much more than most... because they are willing to give everything to ensure others get to have that chance in the future. That is what makes this the most noble task on the planet. In the past their kind forged nations and it isn't any different today. The only difference now is that some think that they can feel good about themselves by saying things that sound nice, but lacking the fortitude to back it up with action... they even lack the courage of their Vietnam era predecessors who at least stood up and said that they didn't support what the troops stood for... which makes it even more dishonorable IMO. Put it in this perspective, you like your highways right? Sure you do... how could we operate our nation as we do today with out them? You wanting to pull them from their assigned task (which still is uncomplete, and leaving the Iraqis would simply be leaving the country to implode on itself thus smearing all the work they HAVE accomplished into the mud, and probably ending up worse than the conditions that we found when we rolled in) is like saying you really support the Highway Department, but really feel that we should pull all of he highway workers off the roads... I mean, they could get hit by a car, or a really bad sunburn. Don't misquote me here either, I understand fully what the difference of consequence here... but the concept and application is the same.

Distrust the leadership of this nation all you want, but when you say things like this you pull the focus from maybe a bad decision made by a leader and you pin it to those who only have your best intentions at heart.

Please, from now on when you try to make a statement about this subject don't get your opinion formulating "facts" from CBS, NBC, Talk Radio or whereever... just talk to a troop.

/Salute to all that died on that crash in Iraq. Your memory I will honor always.

While I respect your opinion, I disagree and I also served in the military during a time of war. I don't care what you do or who you are, you MUST stand for what is right, NOT what is told to you. Every human has the capacity for rational thought and understanding (at least at some level) and NO ONE and NO GOVERNMENT can ever take that away. I was asked to do things I disagreed with in the military. I refused. They threatened court martial, I stood my ground.

Dissention IS America. Everyone has an opinion, and a right to express it, and a reasonable right to have it considered by our leaders. Our leaders are NOT a seperate class from us (in theory) and they supposedly govern only by our consent. We must, as American citizens, express that consent or discontent in order for them to do their jobs.

Did the Germans have to stand behind the Nazi's? Was that 'good' for everyone? At what point does our silence equate to consent, to agreement with atrocity? Standing by and watching something happen and not acting on it? How is that American? No, I'm sorry, you're wrong.

Support the men and women in the military...give them your love, your respect, the shirts off your back. But if you do not support what our government FORCES them to do, then you stand up against that government and shout it out loud and clear, and NEVER give up your principles. Not for any government, nor any person.

 

[Jfrag Teh Foul]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Jfrag

Originally posted by: mrrman
it will never end unless all the troups are pulled out...people will be killed in some form or an other

If we pull them out now you totally emasculate their honor and step on volunteerism at its finest. I served for 10 years in the infantry in the US Army, and I find it so disturbing to hear people say they support the troops, but at the same time don't support what the troops do. It's a contradiction in terms. To support them properly you have to stand behind them and their task. As much as it turns your stomach or makes you wring your hands, this is their job. It's not like they don't understand this fact, in fact they understand it much more than most... because they are willing to give everything to ensure others get to have that chance in the future. That is what makes this the most noble task on the planet. In the past their kind forged nations and it isn't any different today. The only difference now is that some think that they can feel good about themselves by saying things that sound nice, but lacking the fortitude to back it up with action... they even lack the courage of their Vietnam era predecessors who at least stood up and said that they didn't support what the troops stood for... which makes it even more dishonorable IMO. Put it in this perspective, you like your highways right? Sure you do... how could we operate our nation as we do today with out them? You wanting to pull them from their assigned task (which still is uncomplete, and leaving the Iraqis would simply be leaving the country to implode on itself thus smearing all the work they HAVE accomplished into the mud, and probably ending up worse than the conditions that we found when we rolled in) is like saying you really support the Highway Department, but really feel that we should pull all of he highway workers off the roads... I mean, they could get hit by a car, or a really bad sunburn. Don't misquote me here either, I understand fully what the difference of consequence here... but the concept and application is the same.

Distrust the leadership of this nation all you want, but when you say things like this you pull the focus from maybe a bad decision made by a leader and you pin it to those who only have your best intentions at heart.

Please, from now on when you try to make a statement about this subject don't get your opinion formulating "facts" from CBS, NBC, Talk Radio or whereever... just talk to a troop.

/Salute to all that died on that crash in Iraq. Your memory I will honor always.

While I respect your opinion, I disagree and I also served in the military during a time of war. I don't care what you do or who you are, you MUST stand for what is right, NOT what is told to you. Every human has the capacity for rational thought and understanding (at least at some level) and NO ONE and NO GOVERNMENT can ever take that away. I was asked to do things I disagreed with in the military. I refused. They threatened court martial, I stood my ground.

Dissention IS America. Everyone has an opinion, and a right to express it, and a reasonable right to have it considered by our leaders. Our leaders are NOT a seperate class from us (in theory) and they supposedly govern only by our consent. We must, as American citizens, express that consent or discontent in order for them to do their jobs.

Did the Germans have to stand behind the Nazi's? Was that 'good' for everyone? At what point does our silence equate to consent, to agreement with atrocity? Standing by and watching something happen and not acting on it? How is that American? No, I'm sorry, you're wrong.

Support the men and women in the military...give them your love, your respect, the shirts off your back. But if you do not support what our government FORCES them to do, then you stand up against that government and shout it out loud and clear, and NEVER give up your principles. Not for any government, nor any person.

Thank you for your service.

Because you rebel doesn't mean you are right.

One problem with your statement... they are forced to do nothing. You have a right not to sign a obligation to the military. This isn't a draft or conscripting. This is a volunteer nation. When I signed, I vowed to give my life in the persuit of defending the Constitution of the United States from threats both foreign and domestic. 97% of the soldiers I served with, while they may have disagreed with elements of leadership, felt the same.

Honor and remembrance isn't standing by.

 

[amol]

Originally posted by: Phokus
fvck you bush

even though i agree, it belongs in P&N. . .

a member for 5½ years . . . still can't figure that out/?!?

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: Jfrag

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Jfrag

Originally posted by: mrrman
it will never end unless all the troups are pulled out...people will be killed in some form or an other

Distrust the leadership of this nation all you want, but when you say things like this you pull the focus from maybe a bad decision made by a leader and you pin it to those who only have your best intentions at heart.

Please, from now on when you try to make a statement about this subject don't get your opinion formulating "facts" from CBS, NBC, Talk Radio or whereever... just talk to a troop.

/Salute to all that died on that crash in Iraq. Your memory I will honor always.

Support the men and women in the military...give them your love, your respect, the shirts off your back. But if you do not support what our government FORCES them to do, then you stand up against that government and shout it out loud and clear, and NEVER give up your principles. Not for any government, nor any person.

Thank you for your service.

Because you rebel doesn't mean you are right.

One problem with your statement... they are forced to do nothing. You have a right not to sign a obligation to the military. This isn't a draft or conscripting. This is a volunteer nation. When I signed, I vowed to give my life in the persuit of defending the Constitution of the United States from threats both foreign and domestic. 97% of the soldiers I served with, while they may have disagreed with elements of leadership, felt the same.

Honor and remembrance isn't standing by.

You are, of course, correct. I chose that wording to illustrate that the peopel of the military don't get to pick and choose where they go and what they do...to any large extent anyway. It's the best way I know of to keep seperate the military from the government which, in effect, controls it. Only by seperating them can you support the people, without supporting the regime...otherwise we'd be forced to throw out the baby with bath water so to speak.

I took the same oath...difference was, I saw the government AS a threat to that constitution...still do only infinately moreso. That poses a rather prickly problem.

 

[amol]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman
One crashed vic. Fort Hood, Tx in December too...killed 7 including one general officer

yes i remember that crash, my english teacher lost her brother in that . . . he had just been promoted to some high rank . . . forgot which rank, though

 

[aswedc]

I'm shocked to see many here suggesting that the same people who oppose the war in Iraq would have opposed World War II. Certainly, some would have, but to make this blanket statement is ridiculous. There is an huge difference between attacking a nation which has invaded another and the doctrine of preemptive action. The fact that opposition to the first Gulf War was much smaller proves my point.

 

[neonerd]

:brokenheart:

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: aswedc
I'm shocked to see many here suggesting that the same people who oppose the war in Iraq would have opposed World War II. Certainly, some would have, but to make this blanket statement is ridiculous. There is an huge difference between attacking a nation which has invaded another and the doctrine of preemptive action. The fact that opposition to the first Gulf War was much smaller proves my point.

:thumbsup:

 

[intogamer]

The soldiers in Iraq are breaking their ballz over there.

 

[RagingBITCH]

According to some people (see sig), this is the best thing that has ever happened to the USMC :roll:

 

[aswedc]

Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
According to some people (see sig), this is the best thing that has ever happened to the USMC :roll:

That statement is no more representative of those who opposed the war in Iraq as an abortion clinic bomber is of those who supported it. Posting it adds nothing to a discussion. Just because someone on the other side might use logical fallacies and generalizations doesn't mean it's ok for you to as well.

 

[b0mbrman]

Originally posted by: aswedc

Originally posted by: RagingBITCH
According to some people (see sig), this is the best thing that has ever happened to the USMC :roll:

That statement is no more representative of those who opposed the war in Iraq as an abortion clinic bomber is of those who supported it. Posting it adds nothing to a discussion. Just because someone on the other side might use logical fallacies and generalizations doesn't mean it's ok for you to as well.

A difference could be that one person's statements include the word "some" while the other's do not...

 

[raildogg]

Originally posted by: Albis
wow war is bad

ha, tell that to the people who declared war on us

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Jfrag

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Jfrag

Originally posted by: mrrman
it will never end unless all the troups are pulled out...people will be killed in some form or an other

Distrust the leadership of this nation all you want, but when you say things like this you pull the focus from maybe a bad decision made by a leader and you pin it to those who only have your best intentions at heart.

Please, from now on when you try to make a statement about this subject don't get your opinion formulating "facts" from CBS, NBC, Talk Radio or whereever... just talk to a troop.

/Salute to all that died on that crash in Iraq. Your memory I will honor always.

Support the men and women in the military...give them your love, your respect, the shirts off your back. But if you do not support what our government FORCES them to do, then you stand up against that government and shout it out loud and clear, and NEVER give up your principles. Not for any government, nor any person.

Thank you for your service.

Because you rebel doesn't mean you are right.

One problem with your statement... they are forced to do nothing. You have a right not to sign a obligation to the military. This isn't a draft or conscripting. This is a volunteer nation. When I signed, I vowed to give my life in the persuit of defending the Constitution of the United States from threats both foreign and domestic. 97% of the soldiers I served with, while they may have disagreed with elements of leadership, felt the same.

Honor and remembrance isn't standing by.

You are, of course, correct. I chose that wording to illustrate that the peopel of the military don't get to pick and choose where they go and what they do...to any large extent anyway. It's the best way I know of to keep seperate the military from the government which, in effect, controls it. Only by seperating them can you support the people, without supporting the regime...otherwise we'd be forced to throw out the baby with bath water so to speak.

I took the same oath...difference was, I saw the government AS a threat to that constitution...still do only infinately moreso. That poses a rather prickly problem.

I can't speak for the other services because i've never been part of them, but 90% of the Marines that I know weren't "FORCED" to do anything. Most volunteered to go over there and do what we do best. People talk like the government is some huge fascist organization that forces people into its military and then forces them to do horrible, inhumane things against their will. And that's their justification for "supporting the troops but not the war." These Marines--and i'm sure soldiers, airmen, and sailors-- BELIEVE in what they're doing over there. Their opinions are coming from first hand experience with liberating a country, not from what CNN chooses to tell them. Don't feel sorry for them for "being forced to go" because that's what they signed for.

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: aswedc
I'm shocked to see many here suggesting that the same people who oppose the war in Iraq would have opposed World War II. Certainly, some would have, but to make this blanket statement is ridiculous. There is an huge difference between attacking a nation which has invaded another and the doctrine of preemptive action. The fact that opposition to the first Gulf War was much smaller proves my point.

What is it with putting words in peoples' mouths today? I said "many" not "all".

And how are you going to compare a reaction to a 3-month war (desert storm) to a FOUR YEAR+ war?? I'll bet in the first 3 months after 9/11 you had very little opposition as well. People are always talking about how "oh yeah, i'd sign up to fight in WWII but i'm totally against the Iraq war and would dodge a draft if it ever came". That's bullsh!t and everyone knows it. Cowardice does not discriminate.

 

[jlee]

Originally posted by: aswedc
I'm shocked to see many here suggesting that the same people who oppose the war in Iraq would have opposed World War II. Certainly, some would have, but to make this blanket statement is ridiculous. There is an huge difference between attacking a nation which has invaded another and the doctrine of preemptive action. The fact that opposition to the first Gulf War was much smaller proves my point.

Last I checked, Germany didn't attack our country...but yes, there is a difference.

I'm still not 100% sure how I feel about Iraq..

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: DJFuji

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Jfrag

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Originally posted by: Jfrag

Originally posted by: mrrman
it will never end unless all the troups are pulled out...people will be killed in some form or an other

Distrust the leadership of this nation all you want, but when you say things like this you pull the focus from maybe a bad decision made by a leader and you pin it to those who only have your best intentions at heart.

Please, from now on when you try to make a statement about this subject don't get your opinion formulating "facts" from CBS, NBC, Talk Radio or whereever... just talk to a troop.

/Salute to all that died on that crash in Iraq. Your memory I will honor always.

Support the men and women in the military...give them your love, your respect, the shirts off your back. But if you do not support what our government FORCES them to do, then you stand up against that government and shout it out loud and clear, and NEVER give up your principles. Not for any government, nor any person.

Thank you for your service.

Because you rebel doesn't mean you are right.

One problem with your statement... they are forced to do nothing. You have a right not to sign a obligation to the military. This isn't a draft or conscripting. This is a volunteer nation. When I signed, I vowed to give my life in the persuit of defending the Constitution of the United States from threats both foreign and domestic. 97% of the soldiers I served with, while they may have disagreed with elements of leadership, felt the same.

Honor and remembrance isn't standing by.

You are, of course, correct. I chose that wording to illustrate that the peopel of the military don't get to pick and choose where they go and what they do...to any large extent anyway. It's the best way I know of to keep seperate the military from the government which, in effect, controls it. Only by seperating them can you support the people, without supporting the regime...otherwise we'd be forced to throw out the baby with bath water so to speak.

I took the same oath...difference was, I saw the government AS a threat to that constitution...still do only infinately moreso. That poses a rather prickly problem.

I can't speak for the other services because i've never been part of them, but 90% of the Marines that I know weren't "FORCED" to do anything. Most volunteered to go over there and do what we do best. People talk like the government is some huge fascist organization that forces people into its military and then forces them to do horrible, inhumane things against their will. And that's their justification for "supporting the troops but not the war." These Marines--and i'm sure soldiers, airmen, and sailors-- BELIEVE in what they're doing over there. Their opinions are coming from first hand experience with liberating a country, not from what CNN chooses to tell them. Don't feel sorry for them for "being forced to go" because that's what they signed for.

Some do, some don't. I know many people who are currently over, or have been over. Only two are staying with the military after this (both because they're career men and don't want to have to start over in civilian life). About half seem to feel there's reasonable support for the action. About 80% feel the government has handled things terribly and didn't even vote for Bush in this last election (which is pretty amazing given how hard the military pushes voting for the incumbent). You should probably seperate marines from the other branches...I've known tons of people from all 4 branches and marines are...well...different.

Not to overuse a cliche example, but...while they were winning most German soldiers fully believed in what they were doing too. The VC STRONGLY believed in what they were doing. Kids believe in Santa Clause. Many rational adults believe in all sorts of paranormal phenomenon...NONE of that makes any of it true. Believing in something doesn't make it right.

Having been in I can tell you no where near everyone agrees with what goes on in the military. For the largest percentage they're there because they want money for college, or something to do for a while to pad the ol resume, or other mundane aspects. Many are just fulfilling what they see as a civil obligation to repay citizenship (that's why I was there btw). I'm sure others had other experiences, not saying mine are the be-all end-all.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Originally posted by: DJFuji

Originally posted by: aswedc
I'm shocked to see many here suggesting that the same people who oppose the war in Iraq would have opposed World War II. Certainly, some would have, but to make this blanket statement is ridiculous. There is an huge difference between attacking a nation which has invaded another and the doctrine of preemptive action. The fact that opposition to the first Gulf War was much smaller proves my point.

What is it with putting words in peoples' mouths today? I said "many" not "all".

And how are you going to compare a reaction to a 3-month war (desert storm) to a FOUR YEAR+ war?? I'll bet in the first 3 months after 9/11 you had very little opposition as well. People are always talking about how "oh yeah, i'd sign up to fight in WWII but i'm totally against the Iraq war and would dodge a draft if it ever came". That's bullsh!t and everyone knows it. Cowardice does not discriminate.

I don't see any bs, except coming from you.

 

[manly]

Originally posted by: DJFuji

Originally posted by: aswedc
I'm shocked to see many here suggesting that the same people who oppose the war in Iraq would have opposed World War II. Certainly, some would have, but to make this blanket statement is ridiculous. There is an huge difference between attacking a nation which has invaded another and the doctrine of preemptive action. The fact that opposition to the first Gulf War was much smaller proves my point.

What is it with putting words in peoples' mouths today? I said "many" not "all".

And how are you going to compare a reaction to a 3-month war (desert storm) to a FOUR YEAR+ war?? I'll bet in the first 3 months after 9/11 you had very little opposition as well. People are always talking about how "oh yeah, i'd sign up to fight in WWII but i'm totally against the Iraq war and would dodge a draft if it ever came". That's bullsh!t and everyone knows it. Cowardice does not discriminate.

Welcome to ATOT, Mr. Vice President. Please continue your good work proving to America Saddam was directly involved in 9/11.

 

[preslove]

Originally posted by: b0mbrman

Originally posted by: Phokus
fvck you bush

:roll:

Thank God there's a highly-politicized war going on right now, otherwise it seems a lot of you wouldn't "care" about serviceman deaths at all.

In the active Army alone (e.g. not counting reserves, National Guard, marines, air force, navy, and coast guard), accidents similar to this one, outside of the two current combat zones account for over 250 soldiers deaths per year...

Last year a black hawk was shot down by a shoulder-sam and two helicopters crashed into each other evading fire. Ever since then copters have been flying very low and erratically in order to prevent hostile fire. This greatly increases the chance of an accident.

Originally posted by: CadetLee

Originally posted by: aswedc
I'm shocked to see many here suggesting that the same people who oppose the war in Iraq would have opposed World War II. Certainly, some would have, but to make this blanket statement is ridiculous. There is an huge difference between attacking a nation which has invaded another and the doctrine of preemptive action. The fact that opposition to the first Gulf War was much smaller proves my point.

Last I checked, Germany didn't attack our country...but yes, there is a difference.

I'm still not 100% sure how I feel about Iraq..

Last time I checked, Germany declared war on the United States first and was an ally of Japan.

 

[DJFuji]

Originally posted by: manly
Welcome to ATOT, Mr. Vice President. Please continue your good work proving to America Saddam was directly involved in 9/11.

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands
I don't see any bs, except coming from you.

Good counter arguments, both of you.

On the other hand, I dont really want to hear the politically-laden arguments here in ATOT anyway, so it's probably better you chose to resort to ridicule over critical thinking.

Originally posted by: PrinceofWands

Some do, some don't. I know many people who are currently over, or have been over. Only two are staying with the military after this (both because they're career men and don't want to have to start over in civilian life). About half seem to feel there's reasonable support for the action. About 80% feel the government has handled things terribly and didn't even vote for Bush in this last election (which is pretty amazing given how hard the military pushes voting for the incumbent). You should probably seperate marines from the other branches...I've known tons of people from all 4 branches and marines are...well...different.

Not to overuse a cliche example, but...while they were winning most German soldiers fully believed in what they were doing too. The VC STRONGLY believed in what they were doing. Kids believe in Santa Clause. Many rational adults believe in all sorts of paranormal phenomenon...NONE of that makes any of it true. Believing in something doesn't make it right.

Having been in I can tell you no where near everyone agrees with what goes on in the military. For the largest percentage they're there because they want money for college, or something to do for a while to pad the ol resume, or other mundane aspects. Many are just fulfilling what they see as a civil obligation to repay citizenship (that's why I was there btw). I'm sure others had other experiences, not saying mine are the be-all end-all.

80% of the military members you know dont agree with the war?? I guess we know some very different people then. You're right, Marines are a different breed, so perhaps I was mistaken in grouping all servicemembers together.

What I don't get is how so people can criticize our government the way an "also-ran" who never made the varsity basketball squaed in high school can criticize the performance of NBA players. It strikes me as being intensely arrogant for a regular civilian to think that he or she knows how to run the country and foreign affairs better than our own government. In fact, it's even worse because the CinC and top brass are privy to intelligence the average citizen is not. It pisses me off everytime i hear someone say "we should pull out of iraq" -- not because theyre necessarily wrong -- but because of the arrogance needed to make such a statement. I don't know for sure whether or not we're doing everything "right" in iraq, but what I DO know is that I'm in NO position to make criticisms. If the government thinks what we're doing is worthwhile, the CinC thinks so, and the majority of the troops think so, why am I going to believe joe schmoe over there who is protesting against something he doesn't understand?