Damn.. linux has come a long way (Ubuntu)

[TheStu]

Originally posted by: The Keeper

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Yea, instead of finding a program, downloading, and installing it; You find the program from where? Locate which repository it sits in, add that repository to your list, and attempt installation. If that doesn't work, you download the binary, compile it, then hope it it works.

I'll take the Windows method any day of the week...

It's 2009 dude, not 1999.

All modern distros already have all necessary repositories already included and enabled. Some like Fedora are an exception because of their policies, they don't have official repositories for non-free software. In this case finding a repository would apply, but in the case of Fedore www.fedorafaq.com exists. Some distros do include repositories for non-free software but are not enabled by default, in most cases enabling is a matter of few clicks.

In the case of Ubuntu for example, there's no need to look for 3rd party repositories and all repositories except for "partner" are included and enabled out of the box. If you find a software you want and isn't included in the repositories but the software does provide one, adding it is a matter of few clicks. Can't get much simpler and easier than this.

And to find the program from repositories is a matter of typing its name to search box. Most if not all GUI tools also supports keyword searching from package descriptions. Searching for "browser" would quite likely list all available internet browsers for example. As hard as using Google.

When installing from official repositories, there's very little chance of installation failing. In the rare cases it does happen, it'd be better to report it as a bug and wait a while for fix. Unless it is an obscure package or the problem itself is difficult to reproduce, it should be fixed fairly quickly.

You're not much better off if Windows installer refuses to install or the installation doesn't work. At least in linux you have the alternative of manual install if you're in a hurry.

Not to mention that using repositories allows you to keep the software up-to-date very easily. Many popular Windows software do have update notifications these days, but linux repositories takes this to totally another level.

Compared to the use of repositories, Windows way of finding and installing software is inconvenient.

It isn't a matter of convenience, or speed, or anything, but rather familiarity.

If a person sits down at a linux box for the first time, and you say "Hey, install VLC (cuz I am pretty sure that isn't installed by default) and have it up and running while I go make a sammich" They are very possibly going to be lost, at least for a minute or two until they find the firefox icon... assuming they know that firefox is.

Thankfully, in the case of Ubuntu at least, so much stuff is installed by default. OpenOffice, Music playback, video playback, some goofy little games, and a bunch of others things that you might want. But it doesn't include everything, and eventually a person is going to want something that they are more familiar with (like say VLC for me) and they are going to turn to a method that they are familiar with.

 

[tatteredpotato]

apturl can be a big help

 

[Rifter]

I just installed Mint 6 2 weeks ago and it took me about 30 seconds to install VLC. And the only other linux experiance i had was with mandrake 7 years ago for a month or two(cant even remember the version or any CLI commands its been so long) Even if you are a TOTALY newbie to linux(which i am) it is easy to install apps, i dont know if thats just Mint as i have not installed any other distro's but it is way easyer to install and keep apps updated in linux. It took me at least four times longer to install it in windows just because the VLC website was dog ass slow compared to the repoistories. And once you download it in windows you still have to install it, with linux it installs automatically once you select it from the package manager. Linux has come a long was since i tried mandrake 7 years ago and i think in another 7 years microsoft will be forced to either lower prices by at least half or start to offer free entry level OS.

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: The Keeper



And to find the program from repositories is a matter of typing its name to search box. Most if not all GUI tools also supports keyword searching from package descriptions. Searching for "browser" would quite likely list all available internet browsers for example. As hard as using Google.

Typing what into the search box? I have no idea what the program's called. Typing "cd burner" gives me 160 results. I can look at each description, and try to figure out which are appropriate, but I still don't know what they look like, or how popular they are(indication of quality). I can't tell if the gui suits me, or if it even has a gui.

If I type "free cd burner" in Google, the first result is CDburnerXP, which is arguably the standard in free Windows burners. The next 9 results are other choices, as well as web guides listing other options which will provide screenshots, and fairly comprehensive descriptions. I agree, that having a central area for updates is nice, but searching for programs sucks.

 

[Rifter]

Searching for programs is no differnt than windows, type "burning software linux" into google and the first response is for buringworld.com which tries to sell you some software but the second link has 15 differnt free programs listed, i installed K3b(19,000+ downloads according to that site, im sure its in the millions worldwide through repositories) through the package manager and find it to work fine. This is a moot point however since it is not even neccisary because mint 6 came with a perfectly useable burning software in Brasero. Thats the thing people dont get, linux(at least mint) comes with pretty much everything most users would need out of the box there is no need to download and install tons of software. It has openoffice(compatablie with MS formats), Gimp photo editor, a torrent program, even a irc program. Also firefox and thunderbird so you are covered for mail/web. Also comes with a movie player which is pretty much the same thing as VLC making getting VLC not even needed. You will need some additional software but if you cant use google and find a name you should not be on a computer with enough privliges to install anything anyways. Im not trying to take one side or another and should point out that i have used MS OS for 15+ years and linux probabaly for under 1 month total. But it seems like the people who say linux is to much of a pain in the ass have not even used it in the last 5 years and should try it before commenting. I still dual boot Vista for games which sadly is all i use MS for now.

 

[lxskllr]

Dude, I'm running Ubuntu on 3 boxes, and I've tried out several other distros. I may not be a Linux guru, but I think I'm qualified to comment. If I have to search utilities on Google, I'm exactly where I am with Windows, except I then have the added step of opening Synaptic and downloading the package(assuming it's in the repository). I can generally find utilities for Windows quicker than I can for Linux, and they're generally easier to install.

 

[Rifter]

My comment was not directed at you but to most people i see posting about linux not only on this forum, the ones that usually have tried linux 5-10 years ago and think its the same now. And while it is true you have to use synaptic to DL/install the package after finding the name its just one more step, same as running the Exe after getting it downloaded in windows. And i can also usually find a program faster for windows too but thats only because i have been using windows forever, if i had been using linux for the same time period im sure it would be about the same. Also one thing i do find is it is easyer to find free programs for linux over windows.

 

[lxskllr]

I honestly don't have too much of a problem with the method of installing apps. I do think it's glossed over by Linux enthusiasts, and made to sound easier than it is. eg. "If you want to install VLC just go to the terminal and type sudo apt-get install vlc and it's installed". That's great and everything, but what's a vlc? what does it look like? how does it differ from Songbird?(whoops, not in the repository ;^)), is it better than rhythmbox?, why?

 

[Rifter]

Yeah some programs can be a pain to install if you have to compile them yourself, one thing i have found also is the repository does not always have the latest version of the program. I do love the updates though, being able to update all programs at once rules. And no more you need to update to newest version now popups like with pretty much all windows programs, that usually popup when you are in the middle of a game or something, i cant even count how many times update popups have crashed the game i was playing.

 

[The Keeper]

Originally posted by: TheStu
It isn't a matter of convenience, or speed, or anything, but rather familiarity.

If a person sits down at a linux box for the first time, and you say "Hey, install VLC (cuz I am pretty sure that isn't installed by default) and have it up and running while I go make a sammich" They are very possibly going to be lost, at least for a minute or two until they find the firefox icon... assuming they know that firefox is.

Thankfully, in the case of Ubuntu at least, so much stuff is installed by default. OpenOffice, Music playback, video playback, some goofy little games, and a bunch of others things that you might want. But it doesn't include everything, and eventually a person is going to want something that they are more familiar with (like say VLC for me) and they are going to turn to a method that they are familiar with.

That isn't fault of any single OS, they're all different in their own right. Only a person who has not used any OS previously whatsoever could give unbiased review of what OS is the easiest to learn. It is not the OS' fault if whoever sits in front of the computer expects it to be like another OS.

However, Ubuntu does have pretty good starter guides. Actually the guide is firefox homepage by default.

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Typing what into the search box? I have no idea what the program's called. Typing "cd burner" gives me 160 results. I can look at each description, and try to figure out which are appropriate, but I still don't know what they look like, or how popular they are(indication of quality). I can't tell if the gui suits me, or if it even has a gui.

If I type "free cd burner" in Google, the first result is CDburnerXP, which is arguably the standard in free Windows burners. The next 9 results are other choices, as well as web guides listing other options which will provide screenshots, and fairly comprehensive descriptions. I agree, that having a central area for updates is nice, but searching for programs sucks.

Okay, now you're assuming that whoever is searching for a cd burner actually knows what the heck is CDBurnerXP. If they don't, they still don't know what it looks like, how popular it really is or if it suits their needs. Granted, following the link they could read about the program and maybe see some screenshots, but they still have to install and try it to make any sort decision if the program suits them.

Ubuntu's Add/Remove Applications has popularity rating (1-5 stars) which does given an indication of popularity. In less time you could have picked the most popular cd burner (which incidentally would be already installed) and tried it out.

However, I admit some sort of preview would be nice. But the sheer number of applications that are available in the repositories make this really difficult.

 

[lxskllr]

That was just an example, you can substitute any app for cd burner. Screenshots and in depth descriptions are still helpful, and they aren't provided by Synaptic.

 

[TheStu]

Originally posted by: The Keeper

Originally posted by: TheStu
It isn't a matter of convenience, or speed, or anything, but rather familiarity.

If a person sits down at a linux box for the first time, and you say "Hey, install VLC (cuz I am pretty sure that isn't installed by default) and have it up and running while I go make a sammich" They are very possibly going to be lost, at least for a minute or two until they find the firefox icon... assuming they know that firefox is.

Thankfully, in the case of Ubuntu at least, so much stuff is installed by default. OpenOffice, Music playback, video playback, some goofy little games, and a bunch of others things that you might want. But it doesn't include everything, and eventually a person is going to want something that they are more familiar with (like say VLC for me) and they are going to turn to a method that they are familiar with.

That isn't fault of any single OS, they're all different in their own right. Only a person who has not used any OS previously whatsoever could give unbiased review of what OS is the easiest to learn. It is not the OS' fault if whoever sits in front of the computer expects it to be like another OS.

However, Ubuntu does have pretty good starter guides. Actually the guide is firefox homepage by default.

Yes, they are all different in their own right, however Windows and OS X are similar enough in their approaches to software downloading (launch browser, go to webpage, download, double click) that they might as well be identical.

So, you have 90%+ of the population using those OSes which in this way, operate quite similarly. That is what people have become accustomed to, that is what they expect. And as I said, this has nothing to do with efficiency. Most people will continue to do things the way they always have, regardless of whether it is more or less efficient than some other way. Not because they are stupid or anything of the sort, but it is simply habit to do it this other way.

So, you have a massive majority of the population, they sit down at the linux box for the very first time, they want to listen to a song, or they want to check their email, or surf the web, or anything like that... nothing will be familiar to them. And to say to a person, simply open up terminal and type "sudo apt get-install", or even more simple for the CLI fearing among us, go to Add/Remove programs and search for "chess" and just start downloading. It will seem counter-intuitive.

As I have said before, I don't hate linux or anything, and competition is good, and doing things another way is good, and I am not advocating linux abandoning the repositories or anything like that. But having a simple, downloadable installation package that can just be double clicked by the user would be more familiar to people.

 

[accguy9009]

Originally posted by: TheStu

Originally posted by: nerp
I really don't see my grandparents all that excited about typing "sudo app get" or wondering why their flip video camera software won't work. Even in 2011.

I am with you. I wish that one of the distros (maybe Ubuntu?) would go ahead and essentially 'declare victory' and say "We are the most used distro, the most user-friendly, the most developed, therefore we are going to make it even better by emulating Windows and OS X program deployment". I have no problem with sudo apt-get, aside form the fact that it makes no sense to me. After 15+ years using Windows and Mac OS, it makes more sense to me, and the other 90% of the people that are using Mac OS and Windows to go to a website, and download an installer.

An automated installer. Something that I can double click, and it will launch and then install the item into the correct place. Or, like in OS X, something that I can just drag to an applications folder and have it work.

Even trying to configure VMWare Tools on my Ubuntu VM had to have a fair amount of Terminal work. Since it was compiled for an older version of Ubuntu, it failed on install, and then had to have most of the individual programs/drivers installed manually.

Listen, aside from the brown-ness, I really have no problem with Linux. I just have no use for it. OS X handles all my day-to-day stuff, as well as my media, Windows serves as my gaming place. Linux simply doesn't fit into my needs. However, I do recognize that it has its place, and that competition is good for all, so I want to see linux get better and more user friendly.

You are a bit biased since you have a well known love affair with OSX, no?

 

[Nothinman]

That was just an example, you can substitute any app for cd burner. Screenshots and in depth descriptions are still helpful, and they aren't provided by Synaptic.

Actually screenshots are now, the new version of Synaptic supports screenshots from screenshots.debian.net. Not every package has a screenshot available yet but they're working on it and it's really an official release yet either. Not sure if Ubuntu has their own screenshot repo or not though.

 

[n0cmonkey]

To summarize (all sides): FAP FAP FAP

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: Nothinman

Actually screenshots are now, the new version of Synaptic supports screenshots from screenshots.debian.net. Not every package has a screenshot available yet but they're working on it and it's really an official release yet either. Not sure if Ubuntu has their own screenshot repo or not though.

I'll have to look into that. That would be very useful in selecting software, and especially themes.

 

[VinDSL]

Originally posted by: Rifterut
[M]int 6 came with a perfectly usable burning software in Brasero. That's the thing people don't get, Linux(at least mint) comes with pretty much everything most users would need out of the box there is no need to download and install tons of software.

I've used Brasero several times for burning .iso files to disc, e.g. Live CDs (worked perfect every time) but...

I'll have to admit, I never used it (until today) to burn audio CDs, and it worked perfectly again!

Somebody loaned me some audiophile set-up/demonstration CDs, and I wanted to return them ASAP, so I used Brasero to copy them. As a matter of fact, I was running out of time, so I was using Brasero on my Mint 6 machine, and Brasero on my openSUSE machine to burn discs at the same time - and Brasero did a flawless job, on both machines/distros.

Heh! Brasero rawks!!! :thumbsup:

Never have found a Win app that works first time, every time... although Nero Burning ROM probably comes the closest!

CDBurnerXP is okay, I guess, but it certainly isn't in the same league as Brasero (Linux) and Nero (Windows)...

 

[lxskllr]

Originally posted by: VinDSL


Never have found a Win app that works first time, every time... although Nero Burning ROM probably comes the closest!

CDBurnerXP is okay, I guess, but it certainly isn't in the same league as Brasero (Linux) and Nero (Windows)...

Are you serious??

I've never had a problem with any decent burning app. They always work the first time, every time. A burner's a burner. As long as the dev didn't booger up a important detail, they just work. It's like faucet in the house... I don't care who supplies the water, just so it comes out when I turn the handle.

 

[TheStu]

Originally posted by: lxskllr

Originally posted by: VinDSL


Never have found a Win app that works first time, every time... although Nero Burning ROM probably comes the closest!

CDBurnerXP is okay, I guess, but it certainly isn't in the same league as Brasero (Linux) and Nero (Windows)...

Are you serious??

I've never had a problem with any decent burning app. They always work the first time, every time. A burner's a burner. As long as the dev didn't booger up a important detail, they just work. It's like faucet in the house... I don't care who supplies the water, just so it comes out when I turn the handle.

I am with you on this one. A seldom as I burn in Windows, I have never had a failure that can be attributed to software.

 

[VinDSL]

Originally posted by: lxskllr
Are you serious??

It's like (a) faucet in the house...

LoL!

I've always found it curious that some ppl don't want to admit there's a difference in burner software and shift the blame for all failures to faulty hardware or users that are too dumb to operate a water faucet.

Yet, when it comes to operating system failures, it's never THEIR fault. Oh, no! They are power users with years of experience under their belts, running the latest/greatest hardware on the planet (displayed proudly in their sigs). If they experience a problem, it's gotta be the software because they're omnipotent and infallible in everything they do, including burning CDs!!!

Look, I remember the days when you had to disable all the background processes in order to burn a CD. If someone sent you an IM in the middle of a burning session, you'd get a buffer underrun and puke the disk! Some burner software handled this situation MUCH better than others, and the software you chose made a huge difference. That's why Nero Burning ROM is still around, and ppl are willing to pay hard earned cash for it. So, don't tell me there isn't any difference in burner software. That's (cough) bullsh!t.

Anyway, I stand by my declaration - Brasero rawks! It's simple to use, has some unique features, and works first time/every time.

Hrm...

Brasero has been installed (by default) in every Live Linux distro I've tried recently. I wonder why that is?!?!?

 

[Rifter]

Im with VinDSL, i have been downloading alot of Media lately and burning it to watch on my HDTV with my PS3, i was in windows Vista(first mistake) i was to lazy(my own fault i know) to reboot to linux so i was using Nero(came with burner) and it would not burn the first season of 24, it kept ejecting DVD with 90% done with unknown error, made 3 coasters. Booted linux and Brasero did it first time, also tried K3B for fun and it also worked, all burning software IS NOT EQUAL. I also remember the days when you had to turn off everything to burn a CD hell i had a 1X burner i paid $500!!!!!!!!!!! i used to unhook my modem to burn CD's so nothing could happen(ICQ message) to botch the burn. VinDSL i reccomend K3b it is every bit as good as Brasero, you might want to check it out if you ever need to try any other software. Peace.

 

[VinDSL]

Originally posted by: Rifterut
VinDSL I recommend K3b it is every bit as good as Brasero, you might want to check it out if you ever need to try any other software. Peace.

Yeah, I've used K3B too (on KDE installs) - worked fine! Thanks!

I'm mostly drawn to Gnome desktops lately - waiting for KDE 4.x to get ironed out.

Matter of fact, I've got both openSUSE 11.1 Gnome and KDE 4.2.1 installed on one of my boxes. Supposedly you can run Gnome & KDE both at the same time, in different desktops, with openSUSE, but I've never tried this. I just log into one or the other.

That said, I'm still running Mint 6 x64 on my lappy, and it's batting 1000! Amazing!

I had '0' expectations for Mint 6. I thought it would be one of those distros that I ran for 30 minutes, and dumped off the hard drive - but, I've been pleasantly surprised with it - including Brasero! :thumbsup:

 

[Rifter]

K3b works fine with Gnome thats how i am using it, it will get all the files needed to run it in gnome if you get it from the package manager. I think you can run most KDE apps on gnome that way.

 

[lxskllr]

While I haven't been burning since the beginning of burning, I did start with a P4 2.4, and 256mb of ram; hardly a powerhouse...

I've used just about every major burner out there, as well as a few no names, and I could count the coasters I've made on 1 hand. I haven't burned in Linux yet, as using CDs is wasteful if you have the option of a thumb drive. In Windows I use Infrarecorder, and ImgBurn. The only reason I use Imgburn is for the provided silly quotes, otherwise it would be Infrarecorder for everything.

 

[Rifter]

Some burning software just does things others will not, remember way back in the day when you had to use CdrWin for making backups of PSX games because it was the only software that would copy the bad sectors sony used for protection. Nero and Easy CD would not do it (this was LONG before you could download patches to patch your Image before buring it). There is always going to be stuff that one software will do and one wont as they are all written by different people trying to accomplish different things. Its just like any other software, all office suites are not the same why would all burning software be the same. I have made over 100 coasters but those old 1X/2X burners were not the most reliable things on the planet, since going with 8X plus burners with a buffer i have probably made less than 20 coasters. Technology has come a long way and so has software. I agree that thumb drives are the way to go since they are getting so cheap and everything has USB now. I just wish the 64GB and 128GB would come down in price.