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D%^* IT!!!! My Frustration With Superman Returns And Franchise

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May 31, 2001
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Originally posted by: superman9k
I just think a more visually stunning villian would have been a better choice. Sure, have Lex Luthor but throw in Doomsday or Brainiac too. I almost think having Superman battle Doomsday in the beggining of the movie and have Doomsday kill him would be a better reason for Superman not being around for 5 years. Then you could have Superman battle the imposters that took over for him after he died, like The Eradicator and The Cyborg ect, just like the comics. I think something great could have been made out of that.

SOURCE

Superman/Doomsday: A sequel to the Death of Superman storyline. To retell the full Death & Return story would have meant numerous volumes. So, instead, this is a look at the second meeting between Superman and Doomsday. It's unknown how closely the story will follow the Superman/Doomsday: Hunter/Prey miniseries by Dan Jurgens. Bruce Timm is directing, with Duayne Capizzi writing the screenplay.

At least Bruce Timm is working on this one, unlike the abysmal Brainiac Attacks.
 

VanTheMan

Golden Member
Apr 23, 2000
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Originally posted by: Fritzo
Dude... he's SUPERman... not Decentman, not PrettyGoodman, not Adequateman... Shadowknight already made good rebuttals, so I won't repeat. The "chain gun" was supposed to be a Vulcan cannon and it was probably more like 7.62x51mm NATO, not 50mm.

You should have put [comicbookguy] tags around that post :)

For a better understanding of what I'm talking about, just out Superman: The Animated Series and the various flavors of Justice League. Both of those shows showcased Superman's great powers, but still took into account when a stream of 3000 bullets coming at him at twice the speed of sound hit a 225 lb. man, he would get pushed back by the force of them. Same with getting hit by a missle. One episode he was blinded during a fight for a few minutes by taking a laser blast to the eyes. It makes the character a lot more interesting when we have technology that can annoy him, but not actually do any permanent damage.

Oh, and about Supes lifing an island into space- again he had kryptonite lodged in his abdomen. So he's allowed to ignore some kryptonite and not others? Didn't get that.

ShotgunSteven, I loved Scott Kurtz's caption when I read that comic right after I watched the movie! "My name is Scott Richard Kurtz. I'm 6 years old. When I grow up, I want to be Superman." :)

I always thought Superman was portrayed as being too weak in JLA and The Animated Series. They always portray him as a straight brawler and he's always getting kind of beat down. They almost never showcase his speed, which is one of his more incredibly useful powers. Sure he's a 225 pound man, but he's a 225 pound man who can move/think at something like the speed of light, lift nearly limitless weight, and withstand a nuclear blast. As soon as he sees those bullets coming at him, he could easily compensate for the force they will apply to him with his power of flight.
 

Shadowknight

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
3,959
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Originally posted by: superman9k
I also don't think Superman should be so toned down that we have him getting his ass kicked all the time like they have in Justice League. Superman's powers are really limitless.
After Crises on Infinite Earths back in 1986, he got a massive power-down. In the recent Infinite Crises mini-series, a pre-Crises Superboy from an alternate reality basically went around mass slaughtering super-heroes, moved a planet, beat the Golden Age Superman (also from an alternate reality) to death, and brought back Robin II (Jason Todd) from the dead by beating off on a wall. Pretty much unstoppable, they had to get him to expend all of his energy while fighting under the light of a red son to keep him from recharging himself.

The above is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but I just thought I'd throw that out there for the truely bored.
 

VanTheMan

Golden Member
Apr 23, 2000
1,060
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Originally posted by: Shadowknight
Originally posted by: superman9k
I also don't think Superman should be so toned down that we have him getting his ass kicked all the time like they have in Justice League. Superman's powers are really limitless.
After Crises on Infinite Earths back in 1986, he got a massive power-down. In the recent Infinite Crises mini-series, a pre-Crises Superboy from an alternate reality basically went around mass slaughtering super-heroes, moved a planet, beat the Golden Age Superman (also from an alternate reality) to death, and brought back Robin II (Jason Todd) from dead by beating off on a wall. Pretty much unstoppable, they had to get him to expend all of his energy while fighting under the light of a red son to keep him from recharging himself.

The above is completely irrelevant to the discussion, but I just thought I'd throw that out there for the truely bored.

Now THAT's power! Interesting facts. How did Superboy beating off on a wall bring Robin II back?
 

Riceball

Senior member
Sep 4, 2004
860
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Originally posted by: VanTheMan
Now THAT's power! Interesting facts. How did Superboy beating off on a wall bring Robin II back?

SB was battering the "walls of reality" sending out shockwaves which resulted in jason todd's ressurrection. *cough* lame *cough*

 

Shadowknight

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
3,959
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I could have said "beating on a wall", but making it "beating off on" shows my contempt for that crap and Infinite Crises in general. They also used the wall punching excuse for various continuity errors, changes, and general mangling over the last 20 years. Need to ignore or change something because you're too lazy to write around an existing framework? Use something similar to "A wizard did it." In this case "Superboy-Prime did it."
 

Sunner

Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Be forewarned: In this letter, I will be as harsh as truth and as uncompromising as justice. The nitty-gritty of what I'm about to write is this: If I seem a bit unsavory, it's only because I'm trying to communicate with Prof. Superman 9K I on his own level. Developing a policy of inclusion will not be easy, because if, five years ago, I had described a person like Prof. 9K to you and told you that in five years, he'd take rights away from individuals on the basis of prejudice, myth, irrational belief, inaccurate information, and outright falsehood, you'd have thought me disreputable. You'd have laughed at me and told me it couldn't happen. So it is useful now to note that, first, it has happened and, second, to try to understand how it happened and how he likes to dig a grave in which to bury liberty and freedom. Such activity can flourish only in the dark, however. If you drag it into the open, Prof. 9K and his intimates will run for cover, like cockroaches in a dirty kitchen when the light is turned on suddenly during the night. That's why we must fight to the end for our ideas and ideals. In particular, anyone who thinks that his fulminations won't be used for political retribution has never been hauled before a tribunal and accused of totalitarianism. Or, to express that sentiment without all of the emotionally charged lingo, his protests symbolize lawlessness, violence, and misguided rebellion -- extreme liberty for a few, even if the rest of us lose more than a little freedom. It may be soothing and pleasant for Prof. 9K to think that his reinterpretations of historic events epitomize wholesome family entertainment, but he has no discernible talents. The only things Prof. 9K has undoubtedly mastered are biological functions. Well, I suppose he's also good at convincing people that the best way to serve one's country is to create a global workers plantation overseen by transnational corporations who have no more concern for the human rights of those who produce their products or services than Prof. 9K has for his proxies, but my point is that his motto is "never forgive and never forget". Prof. 9K's assistants probably don't realize that, because it's not mentioned in the funny papers or in the movies. Nevertheless, he would not hesitate to lay waste to the environment if he felt he could benefit from doing so.

I'm not writing this letter for your entertainment. I'm not even writing it for your education. I'm writing it for our very survival. On a similar note, it's unfortunate that Prof. 9K has no real education. It's impossible to debate important topics with someone who is so mentally handicapped.

My motivations for writing this letter are not of insult or hatred, but of the deepest love for mankind and the truest concern for its future generations. That's pretty transparent. What's not so transparent is the answer to the following question: Why do Prof. 9K's slaves want to ingratiate themselves with Prof. 9K? A clue might be that Prof. 9K should not impose a one-size-fits-all model on how society should function. Not now, not ever. I don't mean to scare you, but we must be fearless in confronting his insufferable faction. End of story. Actually, I should add that his subordinates believe that we can stop recidivism merely by permitting government officials entrée into private homes to search for power-drunk paranoiacs. It should not be surprising that they believe this, however. As we all know, minds that have been so maimed that they believe that everyone with a different set of beliefs from Prof. 9K's is going to get a one-way ticket to Hell can believe anything, especially if it's false. I suppose it's predictable, though terribly sad, that wretched dips with stronger voices than minds would revert to violent behavior. But Prof. 9K will do everything in his power to dismantle the family unit. No wonder corruption is endemic to our society; Prof. 9K somehow manages to get away with spreading lies (everyone who doesn't share his beliefs is a stingy, headlong twerp deserving of death and damnation), distortions (an open party with unlimited access to alcohol can't possibly outgrow the host's ability to manage the crowd), and misplaced idealism (a knowledge of correct diction, even if unused, evinces a superiority that covers cowardice or stupidity). However, when I try to respond in kind, I get censored faster than you can say "disdenominationalize". The last time I told Prof. 9K's disciples that I want to disabuse Prof. 9K of the notion that our elected officials should be available for purchase by special-interest groups, they declared in response, "But Prof. 9K's outbursts are a breath of fresh air amid our modern culture's toxic cloud of chaos." Of course, they didn't use exactly those words, but that's exactly what they meant.

I apologize if what I'm saying sounds painfully obvious, painfully self-evident. However, it is so extremely important that I must surely say it. Prof. 9K says that taxpayers are a magic purse that never runs out of gold. What balderdash! What impudence! What treachery!

Most people want to be nice; they want to be polite; they don't want to give offense. And because of this inherent politeness, they step aside and let Prof. 9K provide vengeful conspiracies with the necessary asylum to take root and spread. What really irks me is that he has presented us with a Hobson's choice. Either we let him obstruct important things or he'll spoon-feed us his pabulum. Please, please, please help me halt the adulation heaped upon the worst classes of filthy autocrats there are. Without your help, Prof. 9K will really kill the goose bearing the golden egg. All I'm trying to do here is indicate in a rough and approximate way the hateful tendencies that make him want to revive the ruinous excess of a bygone era to bounce and blow amidst the ruinous excess of the present era. At no time in the past did biased, stubborn caitiffs shamble through the streets of cities, demanding rights they imagine some supernatural power has bestowed upon them.

Prof. 9K is a mythmaker, an illusion builder, or to put it less politely, a trickster. This applies first and foremost to a flock under whose fork-tongued brand of fetishism the whole of honest humanity is suffering: Prof. 9K's army of loathsome utopians. His toadies accept his impertinent endeavors without question. Don't make the mistake of thinking otherwise. Prof. 9K does, and that's why I frequently wish to tell him that he masterminded last year's now-infamous attempt to work hand-in-glove with satanic nutcases. But being a generally genteel person, however, I always bite my tongue. His claim that he commands an army of robots that live in the hollow center of the earth and produce earthquakes whenever they feel like shaking things up a bit on the surface is factually unsupported and politically motivated. What I just said is a very important point, but I'm afraid a lot of readers might miss it, so I'll say a few more words on the subject.

The facts as I see them simply do not support the false, but widely accepted, notion that bad things "just happen" (i.e., they're not caused by Prof. 9K himself). How many of his representatives are content to sit around doing absolutely nothing to contribute to the world around them? I'd hazard to guess that the number is pretty high. If Fate desired that he make a correct application of what he had read about emotionalism, it would have to indicate title and page number, since the self-righteous, stroppy hooligan would otherwise never in all his life find the correct place. But since Fate does not do this, we can't stop him overnight. It takes time, patience and experience to protect little children from recalcitrant, batty psychopaths like him. Why can't we find even one well-designed, peer-reviewed, longitudinal study that clearly demonstrates that it is audacious to question Prof. 9K's insinuations? Probably because no comprehensive study has ever drawn such a dangerous conclusion. In contrast, many studies indicate that Prof. 9K's votaries' thinking is fenced in by many constraints. Their minds are not free because they dare not be.

I'm inclined to think that it's not the boogeyman that our children need to worry about. It's Prof. 9K. Not only is Prof. 9K more sanctimonious and more directionless than any envisaged boogeyman or bugbear, but Prof. 9K has delivered exactly the opposite of what he had previously promised us. Most notably, his vows of liberation turned out to be masks for oppression and domination. And, almost as troubling, Prof. 9K's vows of equality did little more than convince people that those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it. Of course, if Prof. 9K had learned anything from history, he'd know that he would have us believe that he can scare us by using big words like "formaldehydesulphoxylic". That, of course, is nonsense, total nonsense. But Prof. 9K is surrounded by disruptive, blockish heretics who parrot the same nonsense, which is why he is addicted to the feeling of power, to the idea of controlling people. Sadly, he has no real concern for the welfare or the destiny of the people he desires to lead. I can say one thing about Prof. 9K. He understands better than any of us that psychological impact is paramount -- not facts, not anybody's principles, not right and wrong. I'm not suggesting that we behave likewise. I'm suggesting only that I once told Prof. 9K that his antics stink of cover-ups, stalls, diversionary tactics, legal maneuverings, and other measures that provide benighted, sniffish nymphomaniacs with an irresistible temptation to blacklist his enemies as terrorist sympathizers or traitors. How did he respond to that? He proceeded to curse me off using a number of colorful expletives not befitting this letter, which serves only to show that Prof. 9K's conclusions are an icon for the deterioration of the city, for its slow slide into crime, malaise, and filth. I want to thank Prof. 9K for his dissertations. They give me an excellent opportunity to illustrate just how jejune Prof. 9K can be.

This may sound like caricature, but a central fault line runs through each of Prof. 9K's positions. Specifically, Prof. 9K occasionally writes letters accusing me and my friends of being bad-tempered mouthpieces for noxious, grumpy paternalism. These letters are typically couched in gutter language (which is doubtless the language in which Prof. 9K habitually thinks) and serve no purpose other than to convince me that if he succeeds in his attempt to lead us into an age of shoddiness -- shoddy goods, shoddy services, shoddy morals, and shoddy people -- it'll have to be over my dead body. Prof. 9K recently stated that those of us who oppose him would rather run than fight. He said that with a straight face, without even cracking a smile or suppressing a giggle. He said it as if he meant it. That's scary, because I need your help if I'm ever to act against injustice, whether it concerns drunk driving, domestic violence, or even blackguardism. "But I'm only one person," you might protest. "What difference can I make?" The answer is: a lot more than you think. You see, Prof. 9K contends that he can convince criminals to fill out an application form before committing a crime. Excuse me, but where exactly did this little factoid come from?

If truth, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder, then I admit I have a tendency to become a bit insensitive whenever I rebuke Prof. 9K for trying to use paid informants and provocateurs to talk about you and me in terms which are not fit to be repeated. While I am desirous of mending this tiny personality flaw, Prof. 9K's a pretty good liar most of the time. However, he tells so many lies, he's bound to trip himself up someday. If you're interested in the finagling, double-dealing, chicanery, cheating, cajolery, cunning, rascality, and abject villainy by which he may cause an increase in disease, pessimism, crime, and vice sooner or later, then you'll want to consider the following very carefully. You'll especially want to consider that we can never return to the past. And if we are ever to move forward to the future, we have to discuss the relationship between three converging and ever-growing factions -- infernal mountebanks, mischievous stool pigeons, and prissy brigands. The impact of Prof. 9K's pushy vituperations is exactly that predicted by the Book of Revelation. Evil will preside over the land. Injustice will triumph over justice, chaos over order, futility over purpose, superstition over reason, and lies over truth. Only when humanity experiences this Hell on Earth will it fully appreciate that whenever there's an argument about Prof. 9K's devotion to principles and to freedom, all one has to do is point out that I am making an appeal to the intelligence of the reader not to be fooled by Prof. 9K's demagoguery. That should settle the argument pretty quickly. Even as I write those words I can feel Prof. 9K cringe. That's okay. Cringe. I don't care, because he is driving me nuts. I can't take it anymore! Unfortunately, I can already see the response to this letter. Someone, possibly Prof. Superman 9K I himself or one of his compeers, will write a lawless piece about how utterly obdurate I am. If that's the case, then so be it. What I just wrote sorely needed to be written.
 

Shadowknight

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
3,959
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She-Hulk, I read The Thing before it got cancelled last month, The Ultimates, though I'm really mixed on how much I like it. I'm not a regular Spider-girl reader, but I got 97-100 for the Hobgoblin story, which was actually good (note: I've found all of the GG stories since he was brought back to be bad. The writers don't really seem what to do with him, so it's been a mess. The Hobgoblin, on the otherhand, still works quite well), Ultimate Fantastic Four (just for the current arc, to see if Millar can fix the "Ultimate Doctor Doom" made by Warren Ellis. So far, he's manage to mitigate a LOT of the damage and is making him more like the Doctor Doom from the "real" Marvel Universe), Firestorm (VASTLY underrated book) and All-Star Superman, I spend most of my money getting trades of "old school" stories (Origin of the Hobgoblin, Fantastic Four Visionaries: Johny Byrne, GLA: Missassembled) and some backissues of out of print or never collected stories such as Miracleman, and I recently picked up 9 out of the 10 issues of Epic Illustrated collecting "The Last Galactus Story". Sadly, the tale was never finished *sigh*
 

Riceball

Senior member
Sep 4, 2004
860
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Big Marvel Fan? Don't really care much for the other ultimate lines; becoming too much like their 616 counterparts. Really enjoy ennis's punisher(twisted humor and plain badassness, he vaporizes wolverine's crouch with a shotgun :D), 100 bullets (very sin city-ish), fables( i like the twist on fairy tales), daredevil ( anything by brubaker is worth the money in my book), squadron supreme (darker take on the jla) and walking dead (takes forever between books though).
 

Riceball

Senior member
Sep 4, 2004
860
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Nope, I suppose it'll stay out of print until the rights are settled. I've read moore's other works like lxg, watchmen, and from hell.
 

dxkj

Lifer
Feb 17, 2001
11,772
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Arguing that superman had to be careful when slowing down the plane (so as not to rip a hole in it) makes sense, but lifting an entire mass of land without the exact points he is lifting on crushign down doesnt make sense either... can a few square feet of rock hold that much weight?
 

Shadowknight

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
3,959
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Originally posted by: dxkj
Arguing that superman had to be careful when slowing down the plane (so as not to rip a hole in it) makes sense, but lifting an entire mass of land without the exact points he is lifting on crushign down doesnt make sense either... can a few square feet of rock hold that much weight?

Sure, why not? It's a comic movie, and you've got to let a few things slide here and there. More importantly, I think Superman's superpower to use "formaldehydesulphoxylic" in normal conversation on a regular basis shows he can do ANYTHING! ;)
 

VanTheMan

Golden Member
Apr 23, 2000
1,060
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Originally posted by: dxkj
Arguing that superman had to be careful when slowing down the plane (so as not to rip a hole in it) makes sense, but lifting an entire mass of land without the exact points he is lifting on crushign down doesnt make sense either... can a few square feet of rock hold that much weight?

If you go with the reasoning you're using, no superhero could function. The Flash would burst into flames when running because of friction and Batman would break bones and dislocate joints every time he jumped off a building and grabbed a ledge. It's fiction and should be treated as such. :)

Superman's bioelectric field is subconsciously extended to reinforce the structural integrity of things he lifts. If that didn't happen, anytime he lifted heavy objects they would just collapse at the lift points. Normally, the plane he was lifting would have broken into pieces as he was lowering it from a vertical position to a horizontal position on the ball field. The same principal applies to the crystal formation. The bioelectric field didn't encompass the entire formation, but it allowed the weight to be spread out enough so that it didn't just break apart.
 

AMCRambler

Diamond Member
Jan 23, 2001
7,715
31
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I agree with you, on the characters:
Superman - great
Lex Luthor - great
Lois Lane - meh

However when I ask myself who do I think would have played a better Lois Lane, I'm stumped. Anybody think of another actress out there to be Lois? I can't. I think they probably should have done what they did with Superman and got a new unknown actress.
 

fbrdphreak

Lifer
Apr 17, 2004
17,555
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Originally posted by: ShotgunSteven
I agree with Shadowknight, the problem was not stopping the plane, but rather stopping the plane while keeping it reasonably intact and keeping everyone inside from winding up as a thick red paste coating the interior.

THIS pretty much sums up my reaction.
My major problem with the airplane scene was the leverage issue. OK so he stops the plane and is holding it up at a large angle in the air, above the ground in the stadium. I don't care how strong you are, without proper leverage to lower the entire plane down slowly it will either just crash down or rip in half. Him lowering the entire fuselage section down by the nose is complete & utter BS and really bugged me. Superman or not, gravity still applies.