D%^* IT!!!! My Frustration With Superman Returns And Franchise

superman9k

Banned
Jul 30, 2006
10
0
0
F&**@! Where do I begin? I don't think Superman Returns is a bad movie. In fact, I like many aspects of it however I find it's flaws to be annoying and distracting. For weeks I have tried to form a true opinion of what I watched but have come away with nothing more than an uneasiness and nagging feeling of an opportunity wasted. With Superman being absent from movie screens for almost 20 years, there was a lot of expectation and hype in this movie to renew the drifting franchise. Anyone who knows of the whole "Superman Reborn" and "Superman Lives" failed projects that hung in limbo for much of the 90s knows just how much effort and money it took to bring another Superman flick to life. All the more reason to spare no expense in making Superman Returns the blockbuster that it truly deserved to be. With Brian Singer of X-Men fame at the helm, I really felt that finally, in this day and age of special effects and high bar of quality for superhero flicks, that we FINALLY would be given the Superman movie that the fans deserved. After seeing the movie, I can't help but to feel let down. First the good!

I hate to say it. The opening credits in this movie was one of the better parts. The original John Williams score is phenomenal. As a friend quoted "The Superman Theme would make eating a donut look dramatic" The revived original score and blue laser credits taken from the original Superman movies were a great addition. Classic Superman and it really brought me back to when I was a kid watching these movies on TV. Thumbs way up.

Brandon Routh, though I was unsure when first cast, is a great Superman. It's hard to think of a Superman without Christopher Reeve qualities and presence and Routh indefinitely has these. I liked Reeve's Clark Kent a bit more but Routh's isn't bad either. I'm a big fan of Kevin Spacey. I think he did a great job with Lex Luthor. He was able to capture both the charm and madness of the Lex Luthor character with a little Gene Hackman comedic timing thrown in. Thumbs up.

The action scenes, though few I felt, were well executed and impressive. Nothing is more exciting then Superman stopping a plane from crashing or taking rounds from a gatling gun like a champ! Classic Superman. The story and feel of the movie really did capture the classic feel of the original flicks. It made you feel like you were coming home to something familiar. It gave me a feeling of nostolga but at the same time left me conflicted. ON TO THE BAD!

I question the whole direction of this movie. I understand why Singer and WB took the safe road in copying the formula of the original Superman movies but question if it was really the right decision. This movie was definitely in the position to either remake or further bury the franchise. Why copy something that's already been done? This is 2006 and with a budget of over 200 million, why the hell can't we put together a movie that showcases what Superman can really do? Can you imagine an on-screen battle with Doomsday? With Brainiac? Metallo? Darksid? WHAT THE HELL!!! Don't get me wrong, I love Lex Luthor but I felt the whole "create Krypton on Earth" plot was kind of lack luster. I liked how they linked it to the crystals from the Fortress of Solitude and how the plot came together but just thought something more creative and attention grabbing could have been done. Bottom line, WOULD SOMEONE PLEASE MAKE AN ACTION PACKED, IN YOUR FACE, KICK ASS Superman movie? SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE KEVIN SMITH ANOTHER CHANCE TO WRITE FOR SUPERMAN! The guy knows his superheros and had a script completed for the "Superman Lives" project until Tim Burton axed him. Everyone should check out when Kevin Smith started writing for Dare Devil. Top notch stuff. Damn it we have the tools......thumbs down.

Kate Bosworth. Eh. Not awful but they could have found a better Lois Lane. I don't like the subplot with Lois's kid being really Superman's son. Maybe that was an attempt to put a modern spin on a classic formula, but now what you have done is laid groundwork for future movies to have to include a progression of that aspect of the story. Unnecessary. Thumbs down.

In the end, I feel Brian Singer and WB played it too safe in Superman Returns. They copied a formula that may be classic but really doesn't transfer very well over to today's popular, conflicted, and edgy superheros such as your Spiderman and Batman. I would normally say in the movies defense that it was planned to be the first movie in at least a 3 movie trilogy so even though it was not a start from the beginning story, it had to explain and establish a lot to support future films. This however seems to now be in question since WB apparently is unsure about a sequel unless "Returns" makes at least 200 million domestically and even then is sure to have a smaller budget. I still remain optimistic that a Superman flick will be made, much like Batman Begins or the Spiderman series, that truly captures the potential that Superman has. Eh, I guess I can always look forward to Aqua man....

 

superman9k

Banned
Jul 30, 2006
10
0
0
I'm sure there are a lot of people that really feel passionate about comics and superheros. I love to see a character go from the pages of a comic book to movie magic. It can also be very frustrating if it's done poorly. Heck these are people's childhood heros we are talking about here! A way of escaping reality just for a little bit and pretend to be someone or something your probably never going to get the chance to be. I just wanted to talk about it with people with similair interests.
 

Shadowknight

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
3,959
3
81
Originally posted by: superman9k
SOMEONE PLEASE GIVE KEVIN SMITH ANOTHER CHANCE TO WRITE FOR SUPERMAN! The guy knows his superheros and had a script completed for the "Superman Lives" project until Tim Burton axed him. Everyone should check out when Kevin Smith started writing for Dare Devil. Top notch stuff. Damn it we have the tools......thumbs down.

I just have to ask... did you actually read the K.S. script that's been floating arounf the next for almost a decade? It was truly a bad script. Smith is overrated as a writer, his Black Cat/Spider-man series was terrible, that's not even taking into account that IT TOOK HIM THREE YEARS TO FINISH IT. He never got past one issue of the bad "Daredevil: The Target". Hist first 3 movies were good, Dogma was bleh, and Jay and Silent Bob Strike Back was bad enough to keep me from watching Jersey Girls and Clerks 2. His Daredevil run wasn't more than mediocre, and it took a GENIUS to steal a villian from another character's rogues gallery then have him eat a shotgun.

Kevin Smith writing super-heroes in anymore capacity = :thumbsdown:
 

superman9k

Banned
Jul 30, 2006
10
0
0
I disagree. I felt Kevin Smith's Daredevil was excellent. There were also 2 versions of the Superman Lives script going around. One script was what Kevin Smith wanted to do and the other was one written with John Peter's (Wild Wild West ect) editing and making major changes. Kevin Smith knows his superheros and Dogma was a good flick.
 

aceO07

Diamond Member
Nov 6, 2000
4,491
0
76
I wasn't a fan of Superman Returns. I couldn't really get into the characters. There was something lacking in the acting or the chemistry.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
I too was disappointed by the movie. They had all the elements, but there were so many plot holes it was difficult to sit through parts of the movie without having "Wait a minute..." implanted on your mind (the fact that standing on kryptonite made him so weak he could be punched and kicked, and yet he was able to lift and entire mountain with the crystals growing two feet in front of him and having a chunch implanted in his side being the bigest).

I think they should have made him follow the laws of physics a bit more too. For instance, when that 50mm chain gun was shooting him, I think it should have been pushing him back while the bullets were bouncing off. He could have then dug his feet into the pavement and step by step when up to the gun and crushed it. MUCH more dramatic. Then when the guy shot him in the eye, he should have flinched, and then he could have removed the flattened bullet from his eye...again- more dramatic.

The unlimited strength thing is a bit rediculous too. He was lifting that state of Hawaii in the last scenes....come ON! They could have shrunk that down a bit. He had a problem stopping a plane, yet 100 gillion tons of dead weight is no problem to lift into space (again, surrounded by something that is supposed to take his powers away).

Finally, the girl that played Lois Lane was totally miscast and uninteresting. She had no chemistry with Brandon. She actually reminded me of Katie Holmes a bit- who played a fluff role in Batman Begins (she was like the Jar Jar Binks of Batman. You could edit the whole movie again cutting her scenes and it would not have made any difference to the story at all).

So, for the next movie, make Supes more vunerable (they already do this in the cartoons and comic books and it works well- maybe they could use that kryptonite thing as an excuse). Also, come up with a story where Clark and Lois are the story's focus. I know...this sounds like an awful idea, but this is what makes Superman stories work- Superman is Clark Kent's alter ego, not the other way around.
 

Shadowknight

Diamond Member
May 4, 2001
3,959
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Originally posted by: Fritzo
I too was disappointed by the movie. They had all the elements, but there were so many plot holes it was difficult to sit through parts of the movie without having "Wait a minute..." implanted on your mind (the fact that standing on kryptonite made him so weak he could be punched and kicked, and yet he was able to lift and entire mountain with the crystals growing two feet in front of him and having a chunch implanted in his side being the bigest).
If you remember, he actually went underground to the point under the earth's crust where the island was. This gave him a good amount of "shielding" since it was waaaaaaaaay below the kryptonite island. Unfortunately, the crystals kept growing. When he was near space the crystals finally reached him, but before that he had several tons of rock between him and the island.

I think they should have made him follow the laws of physics a bit more too. For instance, when that 50mm chain gun was shooting him, I think it should have been pushing him back while the bullets were bouncing off. He could have then dug his feet into the pavement and step by step when up to the gun and crushed it. MUCH more dramatic. Then when the guy shot him in the eye, he should have flinched, and then he could have removed the flattened bullet from his eye...again- more dramatic.
Having Superman, SUPERMAN, getting smacked around by a chaingun would be silly. Besides, if he can keep a plan from crashing, push a space craft into orbit, and pick up a several thousand ton island, I don't think a man that strong and who can defy the laws of gravity by flying should have to worry about a measly 50mm chaingun.

The unlimited strength thing is a bit rediculous too. He was lifting that state of Hawaii in the last scenes....come ON! They could have shrunk that down a bit. He had a problem stopping a plane, yet 100 gillion tons of dead weight is no problem to lift into space (again, surrounded by something that is supposed to take his powers away).
He had time to brace himself, as well as a central point to lift the island. With the plane, he A) had to do it without everyone getting killed from the shock of the fall, and B) he didn't have a good vantage point; remember, the wings got ripped off, so he had to do it from the front. Digging his hands into the metal and "pulling back" would have just ripped a big hole in the plane instead of helping him slow it down.

Finally, the girl that played Lois Lane was totally miscast and uninteresting. She had no chemistry with Brandon. She actually reminded me of Katie Holmes a bit- who played a fluff role in Batman Begins (she was like the Jar Jar Binks of Batman. You could edit the whole movie again cutting her scenes and it would not have made any difference to the story at all).
I HATED KHs character even more than Jar-Jar, incredible as it sounds. She was a whiney, stuck-up, judgmental brat. Batman saved her and left Ras to die? Bad decision, methinks. I reallllllllllllllly hope she's not in the sequel.

So, for the next movie, make Supes more vunerable (they already do this in the cartoons and comic books and it works well- maybe they could use that kryptonite thing as an excuse). Also, come up with a story where Clark and Lois are the story's focus. I know...this sounds like an awful idea, but this is what makes Superman stories work- Superman is Clark Kent's alter ego, not the other way around.
Until John Byrne took over in 1986, Clark Kent was the disguise. Same thing with the Donner movies this was based off of, and frankly, I prefer it that way. Otherwise, you really just have a human with powers like Spider-man instead of a cool-ass alien from another planet. The first makes him generic, the second makes him interesting and stand out more.
 

DaveSimmons

Elite Member
Aug 12, 2001
40,730
670
126
> Also, come up with a story where Clark and Lois are the story's focus.

Rent "Lois and Clark" now that it's on DVD. From last century when Terri Hatcher was hot.

I've only seen the SR trailer, but I loved how Superman was letting dozens of people in the surrounding buildings die from riccochets just to show how bulletproof he is :)

> Until John Byrne took over in 1986, Clark Kent was the disguise. ...
Tarantino covered this nicely at the end of Kill Bill 2.
 

VanTheMan

Golden Member
Apr 23, 2000
1,060
1
0
Originally posted by: Fritzo
I too was disappointed by the movie. They had all the elements, but there were so many plot holes it was difficult to sit through parts of the movie without having "Wait a minute..." implanted on your mind (the fact that standing on kryptonite made him so weak he could be punched and kicked, and yet he was able to lift and entire mountain with the crystals growing two feet in front of him and having a chunch implanted in his side being the bigest).

I think they should have made him follow the laws of physics a bit more too. For instance, when that 50mm chain gun was shooting him, I think it should have been pushing him back while the bullets were bouncing off. He could have then dug his feet into the pavement and step by step when up to the gun and crushed it. MUCH more dramatic. Then when the guy shot him in the eye, he should have flinched, and then he could have removed the flattened bullet from his eye...again- more dramatic.

The unlimited strength thing is a bit rediculous too. He was lifting that state of Hawaii in the last scenes....come ON! They could have shrunk that down a bit. He had a problem stopping a plane, yet 100 gillion tons of dead weight is no problem to lift into space (again, surrounded by something that is supposed to take his powers away).

Finally, the girl that played Lois Lane was totally miscast and uninteresting. She had no chemistry with Brandon. She actually reminded me of Katie Holmes a bit- who played a fluff role in Batman Begins (she was like the Jar Jar Binks of Batman. You could edit the whole movie again cutting her scenes and it would not have made any difference to the story at all).

So, for the next movie, make Supes more vunerable (they already do this in the cartoons and comic books and it works well- maybe they could use that kryptonite thing as an excuse). Also, come up with a story where Clark and Lois are the story's focus. I know...this sounds like an awful idea, but this is what makes Superman stories work- Superman is Clark Kent's alter ego, not the other way around.

Dude... he's SUPERman... not Decentman, not PrettyGoodman, not Adequateman... Shadowknight already made good rebuttals, so I won't repeat. The "chain gun" was supposed to be a Vulcan cannon and it was probably more like 7.62x51mm NATO, not 50mm.
 
May 31, 2001
15,326
2
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I agree with Shadowknight, the problem was not stopping the plane, but rather stopping the plane while keeping it reasonably intact and keeping everyone inside from winding up as a thick red paste coating the interior.

THIS pretty much sums up my reaction.
 

Fritzo

Lifer
Jan 3, 2001
41,920
2,161
126
Dude... he's SUPERman... not Decentman, not PrettyGoodman, not Adequateman... Shadowknight already made good rebuttals, so I won't repeat. The "chain gun" was supposed to be a Vulcan cannon and it was probably more like 7.62x51mm NATO, not 50mm.

You should have put [comicbookguy] tags around that post :)

For a better understanding of what I'm talking about, just out Superman: The Animated Series and the various flavors of Justice League. Both of those shows showcased Superman's great powers, but still took into account when a stream of 3000 bullets coming at him at twice the speed of sound hit a 225 lb. man, he would get pushed back by the force of them. Same with getting hit by a missle. One episode he was blinded during a fight for a few minutes by taking a laser blast to the eyes. It makes the character a lot more interesting when we have technology that can annoy him, but not actually do any permanent damage.

Oh, and about Supes lifing an island into space- again he had kryptonite lodged in his abdomen. So he's allowed to ignore some kryptonite and not others? Didn't get that.
 

superman9k

Banned
Jul 30, 2006
10
0
0
Well, if you actully follow the Superman comic, you would know Superman's strength and powers are actually unlimited. Superman actually makes an effort to tone his powers down as to not have them engulf even him. As for lifting the island, he made sure to get a nice boost of the sun's energy so what he coulld stand to be around the kryptonite just long enough to get rid of the island. This is why he fell into a coma after he released the island and almost died.

Make Superman MORE vunerable? We saw him get the crap kicked out of him and almost die twice in the movie and you want to make him more vunerable? I understand the concept when it comes to making a storyline interesting but I also don't think Superman should be so toned down that we have him getting his ass kicked all the time like they have in Justice League. Superman's powers are really limitless.
 

lokiju

Lifer
May 29, 2003
18,526
5
0
Originally posted by: superman9k
Well, if you actully follow the Superman comic, you would know Superman's strength and powers are actually unlimited. Superman actually makes an effort to tone his powers down as to not have them engulf even him. As for lifting the island, he made sure to get a nice boost of the sun's energy so what he coulld stand to be around the kryptonite just long enough to get rid of the island. This is why he fell into a coma after he released the island and almost died.

Make Superman MORE vunerable? We saw him get the crap kicked out of him and almost die twice in the movie and you want to make him more vunerable? I understand the concept when it comes to making a storyline interesting but I also don't think Superman should be so toned down that we have him getting his ass kicked all the time like they have in Justice League. Superman's powers are really limitless.

I'll agree here, my fiancee was asking whats up with him being able to push the island into space and I had to explain that he got a "charge" from the sun since he gets his powers from there and it was just enough to get the island into space before he came crashing down in a coma.

 

Lord Zado

Senior member
Jan 21, 2005
263
0
0
Originally posted by: Fritzo
Dude... he's SUPERman... not Decentman, not PrettyGoodman, not Adequateman... Shadowknight already made good rebuttals, so I won't repeat. The "chain gun" was supposed to be a Vulcan cannon and it was probably more like 7.62x51mm NATO, not 50mm.

You should have put [comicbookguy] tags around that post :)

For a better understanding of what I'm talking about, just out Superman: The Animated Series and the various flavors of Justice League. Both of those shows showcased Superman's great powers, but still took into account when a stream of 3000 bullets coming at him at twice the speed of sound hit a 225 lb. man, he would get pushed back by the force of them. Same with getting hit by a missle. One episode he was blinded during a fight for a few minutes by taking a laser blast to the eyes. It makes the character a lot more interesting when we have technology that can annoy him, but not actually do any permanent damage.

Oh, and about Supes lifing an island into space- again he had kryptonite lodged in his abdomen. So he's allowed to ignore some kryptonite and not others? Didn't get that.

Actually Lois removed the Kryptonite from his back (not abdomen) in the helicopter and threw it into the ocean. Then he flew up above the clouds to regain his power from the Sun, then he tunneled well beneath the Kryptonite crystals and started to lift the island. When I first saw it, I thought it was a huge plot hole that he was lifting the island made of krptonite, but I'll buy the whole "he tunneled beneath" line. I think they could've made it clearer in the movie.
 

Queasy

Moderator<br>Console Gaming
Aug 24, 2001
31,796
2
0
Originally posted by: Fritzo
You should have put [comicbookguy] tags around that post :)

For a better understanding of what I'm talking about, just out Superman: The Animated Series and the various flavors of Justice League. Both of those shows showcased Superman's great powers, but still took into account when a stream of 3000 bullets coming at him at twice the speed of sound hit a 225 lb. man, he would get pushed back by the force of them. Same with getting hit by a missle. One episode he was blinded during a fight for a few minutes by taking a laser blast to the eyes. It makes the character a lot more interesting when we have technology that can annoy him, but not actually do any permanent damage.

Heh...the favorite way to hurt Superman in the Animated Series and Justice League seemed to be electricity. An electric shock was enough to slow down Supes all the time.

The only only other thing that could really hurt Superman was magic but they never did that much.
 

DaShen

Lifer
Dec 1, 2000
10,710
1
0
Originally posted by: VanTheMan
Dude... he's SUPERman... not Decentman, not PrettyGoodman, not Adequateman... Shadowknight already made good rebuttals, so I won't repeat. The "chain gun" was supposed to be a Vulcan cannon and it was probably more like 7.62x51mm NATO, not 50mm.

:thumbsup: QFT.

Superman's power is basically unlimited.
 

superman9k

Banned
Jul 30, 2006
10
0
0
I just think a more visually stunning villian would have been a better choice. Sure, have Lex Luthor but throw in Doomsday or Brainiac too. I almost think having Superman battle Doomsday in the beggining of the movie and have Doomsday kill him would be a better reason for Superman not being around for 5 years. Then you could have Superman battle the imposters that took over for him after he died, like The Eradicator and The Cyborg ect, just like the comics. I think something great could have been made out of that.
 

RayH

Senior member
Jun 30, 2000
963
1
81
Re-watched the original movie and the number of elements copied from the original was incredible. Other than for the one major new plot addition, they shouldn't have even bothered calling it a sequal and just called it a remake. There were a few good scenes but the original, though somewhat dated, was just so much better.