Cutting taxes for the rich does not stimulate the economy.

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Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig... tax cuts don't cost a thing.

I guess you are just going to alternate between posting the absurd thing, and then calling it absurd?

Then let's cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are free.

You are not being let off the hook just because you try running in a circle. See the post above. You say they cost zero. So, why not cut taxes to zero?

After we do this a few more times, you might get that the absurdity is in your platitude.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Craig... debt is caused by spending. If you have zero spending you have zero debt.

The problem we have in this country is a spending problem. We spend TOO much money.

And you seem to have ignored the point I made about the people who complained about Bush's tax cuts costing too much money are saying nothing about Obama spending.

According to Obama's own numbers his best deficit will be much higher than Bush's worse deficit and yet the left has nothing to say about this.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.
 
Feb 19, 2001
20,155
23
81
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: DLeRium
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: DLeRium
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Kennedy cut taxes and the economy took off.

Reagan cut taxes and the economy took off.

Clinton cut capital gains taxes and we saw a huge increase in capitals being taken and more revenue.

Bush cut taxes and the economy came out of a recession.


I think you can make the argument that lower tax rates do not lead to higher tax revenue. Hard to prove that higher economic activity leads to enough tax increases to offset the lower rates etc etc.

But it certainly seems that every time we lower tax rates we get a period of strong economic growth afterwards. Kennedy and Reagan are the best proof of this.

Bullshit, did you even read the paper?

I was completely indiscriminate in my selection of data. I did not acknowledge the party in power, who was president, or other factors.

I looked only at the tax rates, private and public investment, and its effects on economic growth.

Is this a college paper? If so is this like a 1st year paper? It doesn't sound one bit professional, and what data analysis do you call that? Drawing trendlines in Excel and coming up with a quick conclusion when your data shows wild swings? This is more like an ATOT post with graphs in it. All your sources are lopsided in that they were designed to show what a joke supply side economics is. LoL. What a paper. I mean seriously, look at the numbers the CBO crunches to show. It's at least more partisan and actually draws logical conclusion and uses proper data analysis.

Err sources are cited. The sources are non-partisan.

Supply side economics is the target and scope of the entire paper. It is not intended to be professional it was for a "rebels" class where we were to pick incendiary topics for 4 papers and write a mix of opinion and fact.

Are you KIDDING ME? Look at the TITLES of your damn sources. They were written to prove one thing and only one. Throw out the IRS data but really that's just data.

The number crunching is atrocious. You call that number crunching? At best that's inconclusive data that you've shown us. Graphs with trendlines showing a SLIGHT slope when the data itself is just a bunch of wild swings? There's no trending data at all. Like I said, this paper is as good as a post on ATOT just with graphs. I don't think you looked at issue in an unbiased way and then threw in arguments and numbers from both sides and did some PROPER statistical analysis.

Just the tone itself of the damn paper is pretty terrible. You can tell from the first few words that the author already doubts tax cuts. Really, you make Fox News' fair and balanced look like the most unbiased news channel there has been.

A bunch of wild swings?

You are aware that the economy works in cycles?

The trendlines reflect 60 years of data in each graph. Each comparison of data has a very specific point. A trendline that has a different slope from another one indicates a poor relationship. The final graph shows very clearly that public and private investment drive the economy. The tax rate vs private investment graph clearly shows there is no relationship what so ever.

The sources you discredit:

The IRS.
US Department of Commerce.
US Bureau of Economic Analysis.
The Nation, The NYT, and Essays were just op-eds I read for some ideas on the issue and i included in the sources for completeness, none of those idea are reflected in the paper.

Again if you take issue with some piece of data, please go ahead and say so.

Saying "LOL ITS DUMB LOL" is not a valid reubuttal.

Ok so look at your sources. Everything except the last 2 is partisan. The last 2 is just data I presume. This means that any commentary you use to back up your analysis is pretty much partisan meaning I should just pay attention to your number crunching, which... well isn't very good.

Wild swings? Yes the economy works in cycles, and to show that the tax cuts had a negative effect when the economy works in cycles is ridiculous using this data that shows swings due to economic cycles. To show 60 years of trending data means you go through MANY economic cycles, some longer than others. Your point is to show that there's no real reinvestment into the economy is that correct?

Look at Graph 2 (seriously, label your graphs... you should've learned this in high school). WTF is the green shit. Look at that swing. Let's take this as random data and plot it. What's the STANDARD DEVIATION on that. 10%? I'm not going to crunch numbers for you, but I think you can see it visually already. Then you're claiming that with this ridiculous 1SD #, that you can say with STATISTICAL SIGNIFICANCE that a 3% trend means anything? 3% shift in the face of a huge swing is nothing. It's one thing to see a trend of 3% shift down in personal investment, meaning you could say personal investments on a whole went down based on your trend line, but is that number statistically significant? Not at all. What's you correlation #s on that? I bet it's not that great. Why? Because a lot of other factors determine personal investment % such as the state of the economy, lifestyles changes, etc.

Let's rinse and repeat for Graphs 3 and 4. Graph 3 you're claiming a drop from ~4% to 2.5%, yet your standard deviation is probably 2x or 3x of that. I don't even see how you could comment on these things.

Trendlines are terrible when you have data that has wild swings. Based on your data in Graph 3, GDP change has been decreasing. So you're saying the 90s boom was not very meaningful at all compared to the past? Come on, look at all the discussion here praising the Clinton era. Graph 4 is even more pathetic. Look at that data.

I hit reply before I meant to, but in Graph 2, how can you graph tax rate like that? You're comparing TOP tax rate versus private investment? I mean seriously, I think that that you should factor a lot more into that. You're taking the very TOP TOP of the tax bracket. How many people actually paid 91%? Shouldn't OVERALL tax rate be accounted for? What about payroll taxes, and state income taxes and all these other taxes that we pay? People who are in the 25% bracket today easily pay over 35% in OVERALL taxes. What about sales taxes? Blah blah blah.

Come on. When you do experiments in science you make sure that your test plan is foolproof. The arguements you have presented today are neither sound nor valid.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.

This is you playijng silly semantic games to evade responsibility for your statements.

*You* said tax cuts are free. So, why not cut taxes to zero? I'll ask until you answer.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: bbdub333
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since you say tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.

No, he just answered your question.

No, he didn't. What was the answer *to my question* you think he posted? He just talked about other things and attacked the question. He did not answer it.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.

This is you playijng silly semantic games to evade responsibility for your statements.

*You* said tax cuts are free. So, why not cut taxes to zero? I'll ask until you answer.

Where did he say "tax cuts are free"? Or are those YOUR words twisting what he said in order to set up your absurd little "challenge"?
 

blackangst1

Lifer
Feb 23, 2005
22,902
2,359
126
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.

This is you playijng silly semantic games to evade responsibility for your statements.

*You* said tax cuts are free. So, why not cut taxes to zero? I'll ask until you answer.

How in the hell do you go from tax cuts are free to make tax cuts zero? 404 logic not found
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.

This is you playijng silly semantic games to evade responsibility for your statements.

*You* said tax cuts are free. So, why not cut taxes to zero? I'll ask until you answer.

Where did he say "tax cuts are free"? Or are those YOUR words twisting what he said in order to set up your absurd little "challenge"?


The answer to your question lies in the thread. Go get it.

Oh, who are we kidding. Lest PJ get away with evasion with his evasions:

ProfJohn:
Tax cuts don't cost a thing.

From a later post:

Craig... tax cuts don't cost a thing.

One of PJ's techniques is to bury some nonsense in with other statements, and when called on it, to defend the other statements instead.

He really wants the person to take his bait and get sidetracked with his diversions to other points, so his original error is forgotten.

So, I've kept it very simple, repeating what he said, and my question.
Hence, he has not answered my question - just tried to deflect the topic.

 

Zstream

Diamond Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,395
277
136
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.

This is you playijng silly semantic games to evade responsibility for your statements.

*You* said tax cuts are free. So, why not cut taxes to zero? I'll ask until you answer.

Where did he say "tax cuts are free"? Or are those YOUR words twisting what he said in order to set up your absurd little "challenge"?


The answer to your question lies in the thread. Go get it.

Oh, who are we kidding. Lest PJ get away with evasion with his evasions:

ProfJohn:
Tax cuts don't cost a thing.

From a later post:

Craig... tax cuts don't cost a thing.

One of PJ's techniques is to bury some nonsense in with other statements, and when called on it, to defend the other statements instead.

He really wants the person to take his bait and get sidetracked with his diversions to other points, so his original error is forgotten.

So, I've kept it very simple, repeating what he said, and my question.
Hence, he has not answered my question - just tried to deflect the topic.

Dude, I read this thread for unknown reasons. More of a comic relief then anything I suppose. Your debate skills are really lacking and appear to be really really bad. Not saying I am good... but geeze.

He answered your question many times. Spending causes debts, not tax cuts. Hmmm... why did I respond to this again?
 
Feb 19, 2001
20,155
23
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Originally posted by: Zstream
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.

This is you playijng silly semantic games to evade responsibility for your statements.

*You* said tax cuts are free. So, why not cut taxes to zero? I'll ask until you answer.

Where did he say "tax cuts are free"? Or are those YOUR words twisting what he said in order to set up your absurd little "challenge"?


The answer to your question lies in the thread. Go get it.

Oh, who are we kidding. Lest PJ get away with evasion with his evasions:

ProfJohn:
Tax cuts don't cost a thing.

From a later post:

Craig... tax cuts don't cost a thing.

One of PJ's techniques is to bury some nonsense in with other statements, and when called on it, to defend the other statements instead.

He really wants the person to take his bait and get sidetracked with his diversions to other points, so his original error is forgotten.

So, I've kept it very simple, repeating what he said, and my question.
Hence, he has not answered my question - just tried to deflect the topic.

Dude, I read this thread for unknown reasons. More of a comic relief then anything I suppose. Your debate skills are really lacking and appear to be really really bad. Not saying I am good... but geeze.

He answered your question many times. Spending causes debts, not tax cuts. Hmmm... why did I respond to this again?

It's just semantics. Tax cuts can be viewed as a cost in that if all you care about is your net gain/loss, it's just like spending more.

PJ says tax cuts don't cost a thing because it's spending that really costs. True.

Craig says not true using the argument that if you lower taxes to 0, you're screwed. True, we're screwed if we cut taxes to 0. This could be the same as raising your spending by the amount you get screwed by lowering taxes to 0.

Let's look at another analogy.

- I make $100k a year
- "Pay cuts don't cost a thing"

You can view a pay cut as a cost if my monthly spending doesn't change. It's just another way of looking at things. PJ argues that while you can look at it this way, it's not a true cost.

I see what you're trying to say Craig in that you can't have 0 taxes in that you fall too far in the negative, but let's get beyond this real cost or fake cost and just realize:

- Tax cuts cause an immediate drop in revenue
- Thus if you spend the same amount, your net will dip lower. Whether this means from a large positive to a smaller positive, or more into the red, you get the idea.

What we're TRYING to argue here is whether or not cutting taxes from the rich will ultimately lead to stimulation of the economy, thus resulting in an increase in revenue (after some time), and so hopefully we will have a budget surplus.

Now why don't we just get back on that topic and put some silly differences like "costs" aside because we ALL know what we mean. There's no need to hide behind the phrasing of a certain term.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
DLeRium is right, it can be twisted either way.

I think the problem those of us on the right have is that every time someone suggests a tax cut the left replies with the 'we can't afford it' mantra.

But when the left proposes more spending we never hear any of them talking about whether we can 'afford' more spending.
 

Carmen813

Diamond Member
May 18, 2007
3,189
0
76
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Carmen813
This is an interesting thread.

The person arguing that tax cuts cost us nothing is correct. We won't be paying back the loan that was taken to finance these tax cuts, our great great great grand children will be. That is, unless they died in WW3.
Tax cuts don't cost a thing. Spending is what causes the problems.

I don't know what the point is you are trying to make. Tax cuts reduce government revenues. If they reduce revenues below the amount of money that is being spent, then we take out debt to finance either the tax cut or the money that is spent.

Tax cuts should come with equivalent cuts in spending. If you cut taxes without cutting spending "you can't afford the tax cut." It's simple.

My problem with the right is that they scream for tax cuts, yet they refuse to make the necessary spending cuts to maintain neutral revenue flow. In fact, the "conservatives" we have in Congress are not conservatives at all. They simply want to spend the money on different things than the Democrats do, mainly the military.

We continue to have a large deficit. The result is that the true cost of government is hidden. We now have artificially low taxes. If we paid enough in taxes to cover the cost of government, people might be more outraged about the government spending. However, this isn't new to Obama. Bush did the same exact thing, except he did so to benefit the richest Americans.
 

ProfJohn

Lifer
Jul 28, 2006
18,161
7
0
Carmen, I would agree with most of your post.

The only time either side worked to control spending was during the 1990s, otherwise it has been spend spend spend.

I do disagree with the idea that Bush only helped the richest of Americans though. Due to his tax cuts the number of people paying NO income tax at all increased from around 33% to almost 40% if I remember correctly.

If you look at Bush's tax cuts in terms of percentage degrees in tax dollars paid then the poor did better off. (A guy who paid $400 a year under Clinton but $0 under Bush received a 100% decrease in his tax rate) But if you look at it in terms of actual dollars saved then of course the rich did better, they make so much more that they will always benefit when looking at tax cuts in this way.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
126
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.

This is you playijng silly semantic games to evade responsibility for your statements.

*You* said tax cuts are free. So, why not cut taxes to zero? I'll ask until you answer.

How in the hell do you go from tax cuts are free to make tax cuts zero? 404 logic not found

Your actual error is 'no connection to logic'.

What is unclear to you? Tax cuts are free, he said. So, we can cut taxes 1% - it's free. We can cut taxes 50% - it's free. We can cut taxes 100% - it's free.

Tax cuts are free, period. That's what he said.

You ought to look up the Socratic method sometime, and you might then recognize the question I asked him to answer to help *him* understand his error, if he answers.
 

Zstream

Diamond Member
Oct 24, 2005
3,395
277
136
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: blackangst1
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.

This is you playijng silly semantic games to evade responsibility for your statements.

*You* said tax cuts are free. So, why not cut taxes to zero? I'll ask until you answer.

How in the hell do you go from tax cuts are free to make tax cuts zero? 404 logic not found

Your actual error is 'no connection to logic'.

What is unclear to you? Tax cuts are free, he said. So, we can cut taxes 1% - it's free. We can cut taxes 50% - it's free. We can cut taxes 100% - it's free.

Tax cuts are free, period. That's what he said.

You ought to look up the Socratic method sometime, and you might then recognize the question I asked him to answer to help *him* understand his error, if he answers.

No, you are just really bad at arguing is all, lol!
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Originally posted by: Craig234
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Craig...

So, why not cut taxes to zero, since tax cuts are all free? You're still dodging the issue.
Give it up Craig. You are playing a linguistic game in which the left frames tax cuts as 'costing' money as a way to oppose tax cuts they don't agree with.

It is the same as the idea of baseline budgeting where the left complains about the right wanting to 'cut' spending when their is no cut, just a reduction in scheduled increases.

The left loves to play these silly semantics games in order to achieve their ends.

This is you playijng silly semantic games to evade responsibility for your statements.

*You* said tax cuts are free. So, why not cut taxes to zero? I'll ask until you answer.

Where did he say "tax cuts are free"? Or are those YOUR words twisting what he said in order to set up your absurd little "challenge"?


The answer to your question lies in the thread. Go get it.

Oh, who are we kidding. Lest PJ get away with evasion with his evasions:

ProfJohn:
Tax cuts don't cost a thing.

From a later post:

Craig... tax cuts don't cost a thing.

One of PJ's techniques is to bury some nonsense in with other statements, and when called on it, to defend the other statements instead.

He really wants the person to take his bait and get sidetracked with his diversions to other points, so his original error is forgotten.

So, I've kept it very simple, repeating what he said, and my question.
Hence, he has not answered my question - just tried to deflect the topic.

Right, so he never said that "tax cuts are free" - it was just you twisting his continued reply to you into something he did not suggest. It's the same thing that I've been stating - he just put it in a way where you thought you'd twist it.
Try addressing the issue instead of trying to twist what he said. The issue here is you liberals not understanding that cost=outlay.
 

CADsortaGUY

Lifer
Oct 19, 2001
25,162
1
76
www.ShawCAD.com
Originally posted by: Craig234
Your actual error is 'no connection to logic'.

What is unclear to you? Tax cuts are free, he said. So, we can cut taxes 1% - it's free. We can cut taxes 50% - it's free. We can cut taxes 100% - it's free.

Tax cuts are free, period. That's what he said.

You ought to look up the Socratic method sometime, and you might then recognize the question I asked him to answer to help *him* understand his error, if he answers.

No he didn't. For once would you stop lying here? I know you think you "got" him or something but you are just being stupid and twisting what he stated into something he did not. Give it up already and learn that cost=outlay.
 

Acanthus

Lifer
Aug 28, 2001
19,915
2
76
ostif.org
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Carmen, I would agree with most of your post.

The only time either side worked to control spending was during the 1990s, otherwise it has been spend spend spend.

I do disagree with the idea that Bush only helped the richest of Americans though. Due to his tax cuts the number of people paying NO income tax at all increased from around 33% to almost 40% if I remember correctly.

If you look at Bush's tax cuts in terms of percentage degrees in tax dollars paid then the poor did better off. (A guy who paid $400 a year under Clinton but $0 under Bush received a 100% decrease in his tax rate) But if you look at it in terms of actual dollars saved then of course the rich did better, they make so much more that they will always benefit when looking at tax cuts in this way.

I would change "only helped" to "disproportionately helped". The tax relief did hit everyone.

Shaving 3% off of the top tier though is a crapton of revenue lost.
 

Fern

Elite Member
Sep 30, 2003
26,907
174
106
Originally posted by: Acanthus
Cutting taxes for the rich does not stimulate the economy.

Cutting capital gains and/or the highest tax bracket does not help do anything but make the rich more rich.

Do you agree or disagree that capital is highly mobile?

Do you agree or disagree that tax rates/policy can strongly influence the flow of capital?

Do you agree or disagree that an influx of capital can stimulate an economy, or that a lack of capital can damage an economy?

If you can't reasonably and persuavely disagree with the above, you can't disagree that, in general, cutting taxes helps an economy. The only real question is what rate are you at before proposing a cut. If your rates are already low, particularly in comparison to your economic competitors, there won't be much benefit.

Around here it's pretty common to to keep the analysis strickly pertained to US data, that's much harder and more deceptive than most realize (or want to admit), often these things take time to play out. If you want a real comparison, look to different countries and compare among each other. Those countries that raises taxes above that of others suffer; capital is international.


Originally posted by: Acanthus
http://www.mediafire.com/?nmxjmy4nzmm

This is a brief paper i wrote on the failure of supply-side economics.

If you would like to dispute any of the data, i can directly link the data that i drew my conclusions from.

My goal is to put to rest the fallacy that cutting taxes always helps the economy. This is not the case and even back in the Regean days was not the ploy they were trying to tell the public. Regeanomics was based on the fact that in the very specific case of the times, under those very specific conditions, economists thought that cutting taxes would increase tax revenue. This has somehow become the bastardized supply-side economics that republicans push today.

Under Reagan I recall the idea that cutting taxes generates additional federal revenue as 'front-and-center' and widely recognized. You seem to say otherwise? If you're just now getting around to writing acedemic papers you weren't likely of age back then, so where do you get this idea from?

This is likely as much a philosophical argument as economic, but one can make a very good argument " that cutting taxes always helps the economy". However, "always" wouldn't be a word I would choose. Are you sure these people used that word, or did you interject it yourself? Because I believe tax policy does affect the economy there would be circumstances where a tax cut is inappropriate, e.g., when an economy is 'overheated' I see no good reason to cut taxes then. Why add to the existing problem?

If your discussion here is prompted by the recent discussion of stimulus, I must now agree with the Republicans that broad tax cuts (why do you frame this in terms of tax cuts for the "rich"? Odd, your politcal bias is showing I'm afraid) are superior to increased government spending.

While I agree with some of the increased government spnding, I still believe tax broad tax cuts are far more powerful as stimulus than gov spending. As an example here's what the recent, heavily weighted toward gov spending, stimulus is doing in my area:

According to my local paper, and mind a you 'liberal' one (it's owned by the NYT), my county was awarded a road paving project of some millions. According to the paper (1) it's not even a repaving project really needed and was not rated as "high" on any priority list, but it happens to be 'shovel ready', and (2) it is estimated to put a grand total of 6 people to work raking or operating machinery for a limited time.

That's stimulus? really?

Where will those 6 people spend their money? Can they get around to every store, shop or business to spend that money? Of course not. Who is to say they even live here?

I suppose the owner of the asphalt/paving company made some good money. Mind, you wages are very small fraction of the funds expended for paving. How many businesses can the owner(s) of the asphalt/paving company get around to shop at? Not many. Again, who is to say that they even live here?

What if those millions were spread around via tax cuts to the residents here (as it would were if it was a broad tax cut)? Don't you suppose with so many residents included that every business here could've received some of this stimulus? Then every business could buy more, or pay more to people/emplyees who would've done likewise.

As it stands now all we have for sure is traffic tie-ups and a not-really-needed paving job. It's d@mn hard to call that any kind of stimulus and keep a straight face. Not even NYT paper thinks much of it.

Fern

 
Feb 19, 2001
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Originally posted by: Acanthus
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Carmen, I would agree with most of your post.

The only time either side worked to control spending was during the 1990s, otherwise it has been spend spend spend.

I do disagree with the idea that Bush only helped the richest of Americans though. Due to his tax cuts the number of people paying NO income tax at all increased from around 33% to almost 40% if I remember correctly.

If you look at Bush's tax cuts in terms of percentage degrees in tax dollars paid then the poor did better off. (A guy who paid $400 a year under Clinton but $0 under Bush received a 100% decrease in his tax rate) But if you look at it in terms of actual dollars saved then of course the rich did better, they make so much more that they will always benefit when looking at tax cuts in this way.

I would change "only helped" to "disproportionately helped". The tax relief did hit everyone.

Shaving 3% off of the top tier though is a crapton of revenue lost.

BTW I'm waiting for a reply from you to a post above =)
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
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Originally posted by: CADsortaGUY
Originally posted by: Craig234
Your actual error is 'no connection to logic'.

What is unclear to you? Tax cuts are free, he said. So, we can cut taxes 1% - it's free. We can cut taxes 50% - it's free. We can cut taxes 100% - it's free.

Tax cuts are free, period. That's what he said.

You ought to look up the Socratic method sometime, and you might then recognize the question I asked him to answer to help *him* understand his error, if he answers.

No he didn't. For once would you stop lying here?

Yes, he did, and you are lying. Now, why don't you do as asked previously, and stop reading and responding to my posts, since you can't do better than that?