Custom build (by a friend) vs Dell pros and cons: Suggestions?

[brianlee2007]

dg27:

mmm.. you do know that you posted a Gigabyte AMD board w/ an Intel CPU right? Do you mean the Gigabyte EP45-UD3P board ($135 - MIR work btw, just took over 5 months for me..)? to me, im more comfortable investing in things i know for sure that performs well and are priced for competitive market. Sure i7 runs all over C2Q's on every benchmark, but in real time usage, the differences shouldn't be big at all and C2Q's makes more sense here than i7. I'm still not very sure how much performance advantage DDR3 has over OC'd DDR2's and I sure wouldn't mind to sit and wait for more 1366's to roll out before making further decision a year or two from now. C2Q's to me are the way to go for the reason being dependable hardware support instead of i7's which are getting mix reviews on their boards. From your last comment it seems that you are severely limited in choices by the cost of the i7 build, i'd say free yourself

on the IPS lcd's there were 2 separate occasions that i know of that Dell were promoting their new E-IPS which are essentially IPS LCD w/ newer technology in the process of making it. Due to the new process they were able to price it even more competitive to the TN's in the same size! I have seen a Dell E-IPS 22" for as low as $210 shipped. Shop around it will come again


b

 

[dg27]

brianlee: Good catch and my mistake:

I meant this combo:

Intel Core 2 Quad Q9550 Yorkfield 2.83GHz

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16819115041

Intel BOXDP45SG LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...x?Item=N82E16813121348

(Sorry: Precoffee post on my wife's laptop: tough to see what I'm doing on that...)

You've confirmed what I suspected: that for me (not saying anyone else necessarily), the C2Q makes more sense than the lower tier i7 (it was either the one I could afford or ones that were much much more).

The other issue is one I've avoided because I didn't want to turn this into an AMD vs Intel rant. My friend is very pro-AMD and insists that I'm better off with a 3.0 GHz AMD than a 2.x C2Q. I think he's trying to save me some $$$. Personally, I really don't care one way or the other; I've always had Intel in my Dells so have been leaning that way...

Will have to check around for those e-IPS's.

Thanks.

dg

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

two things.
1. might as well get a gigabyte, asus, msi P45 mb instead of an intel. more o/c friendly, enthusiast features, etc.
2. if you're going to spend $100 on a video card, at least get a 9800GTX or GTS250.

 

[dg27]

Thanks, BlahBlah,

>>1. might as well get a gigabyte, asus, msi P45 mb instead of an intel. more o/c friendly, enthusiast features, etc.

I have no plans to OC, I don't do any gaming; I mostly use the machine for Adobe CS3 (CS4 soon) and burning CDs/DVDs. Would you still say to stay away from Intel?

I'll look for the 9800GTX or GTS250.

dg

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

Originally posted by: dg27
Thanks, BlahBlah,

>>1. might as well get a gigabyte, asus, msi P45 mb instead of an intel. more o/c friendly, enthusiast features, etc.

I have no plans to OC, I don't do any gaming; I mostly use the machine for Adobe CS3 (CS4 soon) and burning CDs/DVDs. Would you still say to stay away from Intel?

I'll look for the 9800GTX or GTS250.

dg

not that the intel is bad, but from a pricing standpoint, yes i would get one of the other ones. more features (even if you won't use it), for the same price or possibly less $.
i would say get whatever is cheaper.

also, i don't know anything about the integrated sound chip on the intel. the realtek the 3rd party mb's use is solid.

also better for resale if you plan to upgrade later on... more enthusiasts will look for an asus than intel.

do you need raid? if not, then you won't need the ICH10R.
this is much cheaper.
even cheaper here.

 

[brianlee2007]

hehe for some strange reasons Intel makes only half decent boards (maybe trying too hard?)

i'd say stay away from Intel boards if you have other options. Stay with ASUS and Gigabyte you would be safe most of the time. My Q9550 is sitting on a Gigabyte EP45 UD3P, i dont OC (havent had time to mess with it) but i OC'd mine to 3.8ghz (2.8ghz stock) with 1 click (thanks to EZ Tune 6) it's really that easy. hassle free and it's actually one of the best OME OC APP in the market. That was part of the reason why i ended up w/ a Gigabyte instead of ASUS or others.

blahblahyoutoo:

not that dg27 would need crossfire but having a nvidia card would pretty much cut him off from the mere possibility of adding a card for CFX. im thinking solely towards leaving options for future upgrade in order for this build to last and stay productive.


b

 

[BlahBlahYouToo]

i stuck with nvidia since that's what he originally spec'd out. didn't know if he had a preference for nvidia.
just recommending better nvidia choices at the $100 price point.

 

[dg27]

Thanks again, brianlee--I'll check out those asus and gigabytes boards and look and maybe even look into OCing .

blahblahyoutoo and brianlee: I don't need a high-end video card, but clear something up for me if you would: I've seen boxes with two cards: Is one a dedicated graphics card? I'm a heavy photoshop user, which is why I ask. Earlier in this string someone seemed to be suggesting that I should consider two cards.

Thanks.

dg

 

[brianlee2007]

any separate GPU you buy is a 'dedicated' card whatever comes w/ the chipset (on-board) is 'integrated' GPU takes the graphic processing load off your CPU and that in terms makes the pc run faster. dedicated sound card works the same way but GPU has a much greater effect in the performance of your entire system. 4850/4770 is not high end by any means, but they are just happened to be well priced and puts up good performance. High end cards are some singles and 'dual cards' like ATi 4870, 4850x2, 4870x2, Nvidia GTX 280, GTX 285, 295. The Nivdia 9800gtx/gtx 250 and ATi 4850/4770 are Mid-range cards if not closer to budget since it's actually possible to get 4850 and 4770 for under $100 w/ MIR and/or coupons. I am no GPU enthusiast but the fact that ATi 4850's and 4870's comes with the over abundance of processing units (800) makes me think that may come in handy during Rendering processes. (compared nvidia cards like 9800gtx and gts250 only house 128 units) as far as budget/technology/performance wise i really think 4770 should work out fine w/ a C2Q setup (4770 is newer and runs on the same type of memory as the higher end 4870 cards - DDR5, not DDR3)

b

 

[brblx]

you do realize that video card and graphics card are the same thing, right?

SLI or crossfire is generally for when you have too much money and a top of the line card isn't enough for you. then you combine TWO top of the line cards.

otherwise, it's mostly worthless, honestly. usually people want to put two old gen cards together when they could spend the same amount on a newer card that is both more powerful and more efficient. there are exceptions that make some sense, like the new 4770 which is both cheap and efficient. generally, though, one card is the best option. for you, one card should be the only option as you don't wish to play games- the only thing your card is going to do is provide some acceleration for the latest version of photoshop. there's no reason to buy a beefy card for that- you might as well just invest that money in a faster CPU.

 

[brianlee2007]

brblx: i agree start w/ 1 then upgrade later, plain and simple

 

[dg27]

Thanks, brainlee and brbix...

Yes--I do realize they're the same thing (seems some folks refer to them in terms of what they want them for)...I was a little thrown @ the mention of having two of the same card as someone suggested. Base don what you both say, it sounds like a single 9800gtx or 4850/4770 should do the trick.

 

[elconejito]

A graphic artist here... If you aren't gaming, you only need one video card. If you get a 9600GT, shop around a little more or wait for a sale they can be had for as little as $50, usually closer to $80. I have a 9600GT which I also use to occasionally game and it pushes 2 22" LCDs at 1650x1050 with the graphics quality on med or med high (really, I'm not picky at all about framerates and whatnot). As somebody else also noted, there are other better choices for right around $100. You'll want to have as much RAM on the video card as you can though since it is mainly used for drawing stuff onscreen. So a 512MB or 1GB of video RAM would be good.

For the dual vs quad question...
CS3 was much more affected by GHz than by # of cores. Meaning you'd be better off with a 3Ghz dual core than a 2Ghz quad.
CS4 however, takes full advantage of the cores. So a slower quad will do better than a faster dual.

So either the newer Phenom II chips if you want to go AMD or the Q9XXX series are both good quad core options. In fact, I was actually surprised that the very inexpensive ($150 if you have a microcenter near you) Q8200 Intel Quad did as well as it did in Photoshop tests (http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...wdoc.aspx?i=3492&p=13). I would have thought the small cache size would have crippled it, but it instead hung in there with much more expensive competitors.

 

[dg27]

elconejito,

Thanks for all the tips: specing this build out has been quite an education for me.

Will have to look into options for the card.

dg

 

[Spoelie]

btw, particularly for CS4, if going for the phenom setup, DDR3 might be recommended in your case, look at these graphs:
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuch...howdoc.aspx?i=3551&p=3

 

[dg27]

Spoelie: Thanks--I'll keep that in mind. This weekend I have go thru this post thoroughly and take all of the advice I've gotten into account. I'm leaning toward C2Q, but AMD is a possibility if costs run too high. And some of the C2Q boards I was looking at do use DDR3.

I tend to keep hardware 2-3 years, so I do want to somewhat future proof myself, as much as thats possible. I'll be running XP SP3 for now, but this machine will eventually run Win7 with 2X the RAM.

DG

 

[vshah]

Originally posted by: dg27
vshah: Considered Dell, but because I REALLY don't want to go to Vista, options are limited to the XPS 630. I'm told that's not a great machine.

check small business. these days they have deals on their vostro machines which give you a free downgrade to xp professional. you get a copy of vista as well, if you ever decide to use it. and don't forget the cheap 3 year warranty i mentioned.

 

[dg27]

Thanks, vshah:

I'll look again, but aren't the vostro's very low end?

DG

 

[dg27]

I revised this again, taking a lot of great advice I got here, while still trying to find a compromise between getting the newest technology I can afford and staying within a reasonable budget (need to get an IPS panel @ some point plus my CS4 upgrade)...

Antec Performance One P180 Silver cold rolled steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case $140

Intel Core2 Q9550S Yorkfield 2.83GHz LGA 775 65W Quad-Core Processor Model BX80569Q9550S $350

GIGABYTE GA-EP45T-UD3P LGA 775 Intel P45 ATX Intel Motherboard $125 after MIR

Crucial 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1333 (PC3 10600) $58

CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply $70 after MIR

Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000HLFS 300GB 10000 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5 $200 after MIR

LG 22X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model GH22LS30 $26

EVGA 01G-P3-N981-TR GeForce 9800 GT 1GB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card $130 after MIR

Turtle Beach TBS-3300-01 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Montego DDL Sound Card $60

total: $1159

Comments/advice welcomed...

DG

 

[richierich1212]

The Q9550S costs $120 more than the i7-920 @ Microcenter for $229.99. Do you happen to have a Microcenter near you? How about a friend/family member?

 

[dg27]

Have never heard of it, but just checked and yes--there's an MC fairly close by--thanks for bringing it up.

As far as the Q9550S vs the i7-920, I was under the impression that the 2.83 GHZ 9550 would possibly outperform the 2.66 GHz i7-920.

I'm also concerned about the power: 65W vs 130. I'll have three 120 mm fans in the case, but I was still worried about the heat. The reviews I read on the i7's tended to say they run very hot.

But, just the same, $120 is $120...

DG

 

[brblx]

130w isn't that bad. it's bad for these times, i guess. but there have been worse heat-shedders that gave you a lot less.

you really think you need that $350 C2Q? for a quad core i really like the phenom II's right now. the 3ghz black edition is under $200.

 

[dg27]

I probably don't need the $350 C2Q; I was only concerned about power in terms of heat (coming off another HDD failure it's on my mind).

The AMD version would be this (I'm unsure whether this is the best RAM and also wondered whether 1-2 yrs from now I'd regret not having DDR3):

Antec Performance One P180 Silver cold rolled steel ATX Mid Tower Computer Case $140

AMD Phenom II X4 940 Deneb 3.0GHz Socket AM2+ 125W Quad-Core Black Edition $190

GIGABYTE GA-MA790GP-UD4H AM2+/AM2 AMD 790GX HDMI ATX AMD Motherboard $130

CORSAIR 4GB (2 x 2GB) 240-Pin DDR2 SDRAM DDR2 800 (PC2 6400) Dual Channel Kit Desktop Memory Model TWIN2X4096-6400C5 $47

CORSAIR CMPSU-650TX 650W ATX12V / EPS12V SLI Ready CrossFire Ready 80 PLUS Certified Active PFC Compatible with Core i7 Power Supply $70 after MIR

Western Digital VelociRaptor WD3000HLFS 300GB 10000 RPM SATA 3.0Gb/s 3.5 $200 after MIR

LG 22X DVD±R DVD Burner with LightScribe Black SATA Model GH22LS30 $26

EVGA 01G-P3-N981-TR GeForce 9800 GT 1GB 256-bit GDDR3 PCI Express 2.0 x16 HDCP Ready SLI Supported Video Card $130 after MIR

Turtle Beach TBS-3300-01 7.1 Channels PCI Interface Montego DDL Sound Card $60

Total: $993

 

[elconejito]

dg27, I think you've got a good setup there, and you can run with that and be very happy. I have a few thoughts on it though...

#1 - Are you sure you need the Q9550S? The regular Q9550 is probably around $80 less. I can't say whether or not the lower heat/power consumption is worth it... The 45nm Quads such as the Q9550 all run pretty cool, especially if you're not overclocking.

Other options to consider (especially if you have a microcenter nearby) are the Q9400 ($180) and the Q8200 ($150). The Q8200 in particular will run real cool if heat/power is your primary concern. That link I posted earlier shows that all of them are very close in performance as well. Food for thought, but I think any of those 45nm quads will suit your needs very well.

#2 - The VelociRaptor is very fast, no doubt... But for $200 you could get two WD 1TB Blacks, or 3 WD 640GB. Especially when running Photoshop, and really especially if you have extremely large files, you'll want to keep data on a separate disk from OS/apps. In an ideal situation, you don't want Windows accessing the drive at the same time Photoshop is using it as a scratch disk at the same time you're trying to save a file. If your filesizes are small, this probably won't be an issue. But if you're dealing with bigger files I'd highly recommend multiple fast disks instead of one very fast disk.

#3 - The board you've chosen has onboard audio so you don't need a separate audio card.

#4 - I have a friend/photographer who has a very good relationship with his local camera store. They gave him first dibs on a Eizo 24" that was a display model. I think he spent $5-600 for it. Just saying, go ask around for display models

 

[dg27]

Thanks again, elconejito.

#1 - I guess I should have another look at the processor end of it; still new a new screen and my CS4 upgrade. I'm coming off a single core (P4, 3.4 GHz)...just about anything new will seem like lightning.

#2 - I have several externals; always set up those as the Photoshop scratch disks because, yes--these are huge RAW and .tif files. I never keep the photos (or any other docs) on the boot drive. I was told that the Velocoraptor would increase the speed of Photoshop itself (guess not?).

#3 - On the fence about onboard audio. Maybe I should put the hold on the outboard card and see how the Realtek or whatever OB audio is there works out. My only experience with onbaurd audio was ancient technology and pretty bad.

#4 - I've seen the Eizos @ B&H--love them, but they sure were pricey. I should ask around, as you suggest. (Really want the 25,5 NEC IPS (WUX), but that's $1100 as well...

Thanks.

DG