CURRENTLY DISCUSSING: Pros and Cons of National Sales Tax

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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ok, the challenge in this thread is to figure out a way to cut down the amount of taxes the average joe ends up paying...then having everyone else point out all the problems in it.

There's an awful lot of people with opinions on the matter(everyone has an opinion on taxes it seems), and I kinda wanna see an ATOT brainstorm.

Also, I sent a msg to lautenberg earlier about the messed up educational system in Jersey and I'm feelin edgy.
 

Yossarian

Lifer
Dec 26, 2000
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***** I HEREBY RETRACT MY WITTY ONE-LINER ON THE GROUNDS THAT THIS THREAD WAS RETROACTIVELY CHANGED TO BE ABOUT SOMETHING ELSE*****
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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haha....you guys are funny. I guess it's my fault for assuming everyone has an opion on taxes. I'll let this die if no one wants to touch it.
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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ok, I don't see how the National Sales Tax would work out. It sounds to me like it would end up taking more money from the average person than anything. Here's how I'm looking at it.

If everything up to the poverty line is tax free -- then those who make just enough to get by should, theoretically, pay no taxes. Granted, the vast majority of people will make more than this and since the lowest income producing segments of the populace make the least amount anyways, they contributed the least amount to the tax fund.

However, there are those who live above the property line who would also, in theory, be able to get around this tax system. For instance, if you buy goods in a foreign nation, you would not pay the tax on it. If you try and compensate by increasing tariffs or applying a new tax to match out, you stifle and hit foreign industry in this country. It also works out poorly for industries that rely on foreign branches. For instance, if I run a clothing distributor that relies on russian manufacturing, tarrifs could kill me unless I raised my prices....which the consumer will have to pay on top of the new consumption tax. You could make an exception for american industry with foreign dependencies, but then that creates two problems, it heavily promotes outsourcing goods to foreign interests and takes industry out of country...making every industry look like IT does now and secondly, it provides a pretty large loophole for people to slip in tax-free foreign produced goods, which means the US will end up importing rather than exporting and consuming american. What this also means is that it favors those with the money to establish foreign plants and play the international market.

I know this has probably been researched by people more educated than me, so my first inclination is to say I missed something...but I can't quite figure out what.
 

ReiAyanami

Diamond Member
Sep 24, 2002
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a National sales tax is the worst idea EVAR. take a look at Great Britain, once u convert to a national sales tax, it only makes it easier for politicians to raise it.... that's why they have 17.5% SALES TAX!!!

reducing taxes for the "average joe" is tricky, as more disposable income might trigger inflation which hurts average joe more in the end. if u want to help joe, uncle sam needs to strong arm the FTC to break down monopolies that are the true reason joe pays too much for everything.

food monopoly, top 5 food manufacturers own over 70% of the board, i've seen grocery prices rise far faster than inflation over the last few years, 50-100%.

and college textbooks.... :|
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
a National sales tax is the worst idea EVAR. take a look at Great Britain, once u convert to a national sales tax, it only makes it easier for politicians to raise it.... that's why they have 17.5% SALES TAX!!!

reducing taxes for the "average joe" is tricky, as more disposable income might trigger inflation which hurts average joe more in the end. if u want to help joe, uncle sam needs to strong arm the FTC to break down monopolies that are the true reason joe pays too much for everything.

food monopoly, top 5 food manufacturers own over 70% of the board, i've seen grocery prices rise far faster than inflation over the last few years, 50-100%.

and college textbooks.... :|

if you break down the largest corporations, doesn't that stagnate development, both socially and technically?
 

Atrail

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2001
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Ok the tax brackets decide how much you pay in taxes. People who make less money pay less taxes. People who make more money pay
a higher percentage.

People who make less money don't spend as much as rich people. Therefore they would not being paying as much taxes. Rich people do spend more than poor people meaning they would naturally pay more taxes. We would also collect taxes from every laboring non-resident who works and lives in the US. (i.e. the Mexicans on the street corner by the paint store, I am not saying none of them pay taxes but the majority do not). We would be collecting Federal dollars on every purchase (probably excluding food) that is made in the U.S. Every tourist dollar spent here would contribute to the Federal gov. Every tax year we spend billions of dollars keeping, records, paying tax preparation fees, funding the IRS, and it the cost go on and on. This is one of the most inefficient and wasteful ways to collect taxes.

BTW the IRS did a study in 2000 and they determined 50% of Americans were overpaying their taxes. rich and poor
 

Atrail

Diamond Member
Apr 20, 2001
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Originally posted by: ReiAyanami
a National sales tax is the worst idea EVAR. take a look at Great Britain, once u convert to a national sales tax, it only makes it easier for politicians to raise it.... that's why they have 17.5% SALES TAX!!!

reducing taxes for the "average joe" is tricky, as more disposable income might trigger inflation which hurts average joe more in the end. if u want to help joe, uncle sam needs to strong arm the FTC to break down monopolies that are the true reason joe pays too much for everything.

food monopoly, top 5 food manufacturers own over 70% of the board, i've seen grocery prices rise far faster than inflation over the last few years, 50-100%.

and college textbooks.... :|

And you think our Politicians aren't dealin Cards with our current tax code ?

yeah right

The way it is setup now we just don't see it, but it is still there.
The Tax Code is another form of soft-money lawmakers use to help those that Finance them, or serve their needs...
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: Atrail
Ok the tax brackets decide how much you pay in taxes. People who make less money pay less taxes. People who make more money pay
a higher percentage.

People who make less money don't spend as much as rich people. Therefore they would not being paying as much taxes. Rich people do spend more than poor people meaning they would naturally pay more taxes. We would also collect taxes from every laboring non-resident who works and lives in the US. (i.e. the Mexicans on the street corner by the paint store, I am not saying none of them pay taxes but the majority do not). We would be collecting Federal dollars on every purchase (probably excluding food) that is made in the U.S. Every tourist dollar spent here would contribute to the Federal gov. Every tax year we spend billions of dollars keeping, records, paying tax preparation fees, funding the IRS, and it the cost go on and on. This is one of the most inefficient and wasteful ways to collect taxes.

BTW the IRS did a study in 2000 and they determined 50% of Americans were overpaying their taxes. rich and poor

The problem lies, however, in where they spend their taxes. If I were to take a trip to france, buy some bread, a few bottles of wine, some souvenirs and whatnot...would I suddenly get slapped with a bill upon return to the states on my souvenirs? What about contested areas like duty free shops? And this is on a small scale. On a larger scale, what if I import goods to make my living...do my costs suddenly skyrocket on tarrifs? What about purchase of services? Are they taxed? On what scale and on what grounds can they be taxed? Suddenly, people who work in service based industries like lawyers and doctors have higher fees that they don't see any of. So do we turn around and go the other way? No taxing on foreign goods or services? On the foreign end, doesn't this take industry outside the states? Wouldn't this cause a mass migration away from manufacturing because your bottom line has risen while the service industry's hasn't? Also, wouldn't this promote saving your money as opposed to spending it? If everything suddenly costs more, the wealthy and middle class are likely to purchase less since their money is now worth less. It's an artificial inflation. I guess the biggest problem is that you have the average joe taking in more money, true, but you also have increased costs go unevenly across the board. You can't unilaterally say everything now costs you 10 or 15% more because other nations won't abide by it. So all you've done in upped the value of foreign goods. If you try to up the local costs of imported goods by upping tarrifs, you cripple businesses who rely on foreign lowered foreign costs. It also ups the cost to manufacture goods with foreign made parts and material. On top of that, it unevenly taxes varying industries. Something like a manufacturing plant will end up paying taxes on the raw materiel it takes in, while a service based one like a consulting firm pays much fewer taxes. If you localize the tax to merely end user expenses, all I imagine you'll do is proliferate the small business and single person LLC model.
 

yoda291

Diamond Member
Aug 11, 2001
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Originally posted by: her209
Leagalize drugs, then put large amounts of taxes on it.

Strangely, this is not a bad idea at all IMO. It worked for tobacco and alcohol.