Current state of HTPC and Receivers compatibility? Any gotchas???

[brotj7]

My old hand-me-down Sony receiver finally blew, and I'd really like a new one that will work with my HTPC. I have been trying to figure it all out with some Google foo, but keep getting lost. So... what is the current state of a HTPC and receivers on the market???

- Does 1080p up scaling need to happen on the PC or receiver?

- Are there still black bar issues between 1080P and 1900x1200 video out?

- Do the ATI/AMD cards output sound that is good enough for a receiver, or should I get a sound card?
- Is one HDMI spec absolutely needed for a specific surround sound setup(enough channels)?

- Does a receiver try to upscale audio from a PC or DVD/bluray/game system?

- Do codec's matter, or is it already a sound by the time it is put on the line out of the PC?
-Online Video codec? Netflix?

- Does one brand have specific features that lends itself better to a HTPC than another?

- Does "THX", "Dolby ...", or "some other pneumonic" certified matter more than another?

- Should I make the receiver do all processing work, and treat my TV like a dumb screen, or
do I still use my TV for inputs and just output the sound to the receiver at my price range?

- Does bluray support require anything on the receiver? (Yes, the PC is HDCP compliant.)

- Did 7.1 with the option to use two sides as front uppers become useful? Useful for FPS games? Flight Sims??? (I believe onkyo had a reasonably priced 7.1 unit that had its front 3 with the choice of using the two sides for front uppers a few yrs back)

We finally got rid of our cable almost 2 weeks ago, and with Christmas 2 weeks away, there is a little urgency to my decision. To give some background, audio is one thing I have never payed too much attention to as I never had the cash to dabble. I had been using the green line out from my mobo with an adaptor to red/white RCA inputs on the receiver, and sound was just horrible. It had case fan noise, and HD clicking during action scenes, or whenever the PC started doing some work. Things are different now, and there is actually a need for the audio, so even though I don't know what features designate "better", I do know I want something "better", and I don't want it to be obsolete in 2 years.

We do have direct buy, so info specific to Onkyo, Denon, Harman Kardon, or Sony would be great. The sub $1200 range would be preferred, sub $800 would be even better. I would like to be able to hook up my gaming/HTPC and its many upgrades over the next 5-10yrs, xbox360, wii, and soon a PS3 without any gotcha's.

Current room is 14'd x 16'w x 8'ceilings. For this size room is 100w channels good? Should I rerip all my movies, cd's to a specific bitrate to take advantage of a higher quality/newer receiver?

Thanks all,
Robb

 

[s44]

Wait, you mean that x1950? Horror... Replace that.

At this point, every new video card will do audio over HDMI. I *believe* every new card also does lossless surround codec streaming over HDMI (check reviews for the Protected Audio Path), but some Nvidias may not. This only matters for Blu-Ray: games, CDs, all give bit-perfect sound over HDMI no matter what. Sound cards are obsolete.

If you're getting a PS3, forget about Blu-Ray on the PC (unless you're planning on a major ripping spree). PS3 plays everything with no hiccups. HTPCs can be made to do anything, but there are little issues that are a pain to read up on and iron out. Plus you have to pay for software that does full lossless surround...

Pretty much every AVR now for sale has the basic features you need (HDMI audio with all codecs). Onkyo and Denon have good power output and an excellent room/speaker correction system called "Audyssey". (HK has excellent power output but no Audyssey. Non-ES Sony is terrible.) That said, you really don't need a $1000 AVR. In fact, you haven't mentioned what you have but you should probably put at least half of that budget into upgrading speakers/subwoofer.

You can upscale and de-interlace video anywhere (source, AVR, TV). Depending on your TV size/brand you may not notice much difference. Most current vidcards can do a really good job with DVDs, but again there's the issue of setup and tweaking time.

Just rip CDs to FLAC or some other lossless... If you notice it enough for it to be worth the time.

 

[0roo0roo]

On any recent video card with hdmi output, it goes to 1080p by default. Even the bios boot screen showed at 1080p Win 7 installed right into 1080p just fine. The video card handled it all automatically.

Scaling of video should be done by the pc though. ffdshow or whatever for dvd, or just use the defaults in whatever htpc software you use.

 

[alcoholbob]

HDMI 7.1 channel LPCM has trickled down to even the entry level/mobile chips. For as little as $340 you can pick up the Acer Revo off of Amazon...1.8GHz Dual Core Atom, nvidia mobile HDMI GPU and wireless n.

 

[Emulex]

the $9 after rebate HD 5450 i got does true bitstream passthru on hdmi. i usuall use the optical but i guess if you are into DRM'd media you can route through hdmi.

 

[brotj7]

Actually it's the P180 box in my sig, it helps reduce the sound in my living room.

I'm still using the 8800gt right now. I would like to upgrade to a radeon 5*** series if I can find one that is quiet, and can still play MS Flight Sim 10 in all its glory with some FPS's on the side at a medium frame rate once in a while too. Initially this system was a gaming PC with my 46" Samsung LCD tv as my monitor, then I added a bluray player, then a whole lot of capacity(which I then filled with my favorite dvds and some blurays from my collection). Now the F4's are backups of other pc's in the house.

I guess all of my question have come about from when I used to work in retail. Circa 2008 - The audio guys said certain receivers actually broke down the HDMI signal and upgraded it before sending audio out to the speakers, and video out to the tv. They then spouted out a whole slew of gotchas. I decided to wait a few more years, however I'm still looking for clarity.

The speakers will be replaced a few at a time as I find deals, I was thinking the Polk Tsi series, but that can be changed if a given receiver works better with different speakers. I will start with just 2 front speakers, then add a sub, then the front, then move the fronts either up or back as I find deals on grain compatable units. I do have to start with a receiver 1st because we currently have no tv for my wife, and she goes to all the network websites to watch her shows. But now has no audio.

Thanks for all the replies,
Robb

 

[jtvang125]

The hardware is there but the software is still a bit flaky at times. It took me almost a month to get bitstreaming and dxva video acceleration working through Windows 7 Media Center. You'll just have to wade through tons of codec and driver versions to get the right combination that work together. Good luck.

 

[s44]

I guess all of my question have come about from when I used to work in retail. Circa 2008 - The audio guys said certain receivers actually broke down the HDMI signal and upgraded it before sending audio out to the speakers, and video out to the tv. They then spouted out a whole slew of gotchas. I decided to wait a few more years, however I'm still looking for clarity.

Yeah, I have no idea what they're talking about. Technologies like room correction (audio) and video scaling/processing in the AVR can improve the output, but they work regardless of what you're feeding it. Not really an issue, just buy the receiver without worrying about compatibility.

edit -- as to which one, anything more expensive than the Denon 3311 would be massive overkill (seriously, spend more on speakers!). But in reality, the Onkyo 708 ($550 at Amazon, dunno what your local price is) is probably more than enough.

 

[joetekubi]

The speakers will be replaced a few at a time as I find deals, I was thinking the Polk Tsi series, but that can be changed if a given receiver works better with different speakers. I will start with just 2 front speakers, then add a sub, then the front, then move the fronts either up or back as I find deals on grain compatable units. Robb

I've heard good recos on the Onkyo 708.
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...pk=onkyo%20708

Two things you might not care about now, but which may be important later are "certified 4 ohm" and "bi-amp".

My preferred setup is 2 big tower speakers for front L+R, and at least 4 inch, preferably 5 inch minimum surrounds.

4 ohm and bi-amp will keep your options flexible down the road.

 

[brotj7]

At $550, the ONKYO TX- 708 looks great, thanks. From what I can tell the difference between that and the ONKYO TX-NR808 is HDMI 1.4 with 3D, more power per channel, and about $130 right now on the egg. Anything else???

The 808 specs list says:
Power (8ohms 20-20kHz 0.08%) /Ch 135W
Continuous 6ohms Rated
Certified 4ohms performance

Does that mean I should use 6 or 8 ohm speakers, which can handle spikes of 4ohms? I believe I should not use 8 ohm sspeakers with a 4ohm receiver because I can blow the speakers, or is it the other way around.

Also, does anybody know the name of the feature where I can use 2 front uppers for FPS games? Does either the 708 or 808 have it?

 

[s44]

Both the 708 and 808 have 1.4a and 3D. If you don't ever want 3D, look at last year's refurb models at accessories4less (the $400 RC-180 -- basically a 807 -- is an awesome deal). Both will also run 4ohm nominal (spikes aren't considered separately) speakers, though you always want to run them on the 6+ohm mode (4ohm mode is for certification purposes only). The height thing is Dolby PLIIz or Audyssey DSX (two different methods), and all these Onkyos (and Denons) have them.

Bi-amping is useless unless the speakers have an active crossover (which is way out of your price range), because almost all the power goes to the woofers anyway. The key future-proofing in the 708 (and 808 and 3311) is the full set of pre-outs, so you can plug in a separate amp to get real (200+W) power on, say, your front three channels if you want it.

In real life, a few dozen watts isn't a huge difference, since you need to double wattage to get 3db volume increase. To increase max output you need to start with the right speakers, both because efficiency is important and because much consumer-level stuff can't handle real power for long anyway.

 

[brotj7]

Thanks for all the great info everybody. The 3D option is just great to me. I have been waiting for a 3D TV ever since I saw the jaws head pop out at Marty on Back To The Future II when I was a kid. Now we just need to get some 3D football and I'll be drooling for it. I am happy to find out the current protocols and codecs work, I thought they were going to be a much bigger issue than it is.

s44 - I just read up on the crossover speakers, seems more geared at music or a huge room right?

Also, from what I can tell, pre-out means I can send certain channels out from this receiver to another unit that will put more juice on the line to drive a bigger speaker. Is that correct, or would one drive all low frequency speakers, and another drive all high frequency sound to protect the speakers.

So, I don't do credit and I don't want to dip into savings, and I would like to hash out an overall system plan ahead of time, can you guys help me with that one?

The on-sale Onkyos seem to be the way to go to get audio back ASAP, unless there are more opinions on a Denon, or another brand. In March or April, I should be able to get either 2x TSi400 or TSi500 floor standing units. If I do the 400s, I can get a CS20 for the front center sooner. I will probably not be able to do a new sub until my birthday in late June. That leaves me with what to do for the fronts now. I know I do want both the uppers and the rears, so this purchase could go to either purpose, and I only have the $ up front for one set, and the receiver right now.

One reviewer on the egg said the bookshelp TSi 200s are supposed to be 15" high, so those would have to be laid on their side in our entertainment center while they are being used as my front 2. Also, I dont know if I need 2 cones per speaker is too much for either upper or rears where these two will end up. If I did 2x TSi100, would that be enough uumph and balance with the final setup?

Also, this is probably an insanely stupid question, however I would like to know. Is there such a thing as power balance issues where using something that draws as much power as the floor standing units, would raise the floor of managable frequencies to beyond what the smaller units could handle? I other words if power was being drawn at 200w @ 15 amps, would the overall receiver be forced into a mode that could not produce 60w @ 5amps, which would overjuice a smaller speaker to blow it??? I do know capacitors stage and balance different currents, and of course lightning or a shock could blow it, but could a large speaker within it's own tolerences blow a smaller speaker, just by drawing too much???

Thanks again,
Robb

 

[s44]

Also, from what I can tell, pre-out means I can send certain channels out from this receiver to another unit that will put more juice on the line to drive a bigger speaker.

Correct, except speaker *size* has nothing to do with it. Larger speakers actually tend to be more efficient, which means you need *less* power to drive them to the same volume. That said, speakers that can handle 200+W without melting (check the recommended power) tend to be either large or expensive.

Note that the front three channels get a lot more use than the surrounds for HT, so many people wanting more power get something like this for the fronts and run the rest off the AVR. This also means you can probably get away with less beefy sides/heights. (Note that the surrounds in 5.1 are *side* and slightly to the rear, not actual rear channels.)

Not sure why you're just looking at Polks, besides the fact that Newegg keeps promoting them. They're decent enough but in that price range the Infinity offerings at Crutchfield are a serious deal -- though there are no cool wood finishes. There are also a bunch of internet direct companies...

I would be careful with using MTM (two larger drivers surrounding a smaller one) bookshelf speakers on their side as L+R. This can cause problems as the two larger drivers will cancel each other out for certain seating positions. Center speakers are often designed to work around this, but a straight out bookshelf won't be.

Power balance not an issue.

 

[brotj7]

Wow, thanks for all the info...that amp looks sweet. It looks like I'll be doing the 708 with the option of an extra amp down the road if needed. I don't need more than 5HDMI inputs max, and I don't see the need for upscaling to anything other than HDMI, nor do I need a 3rd zone, so I'm ginna save the extra $130 on the receiver.

Honestly, polk was a brand I recognized when I started poking around the net for a setup, so I auditioned some at my local best buy so I could get an idea of how the model numbers equate. It does seem a little silly to get fixated on only one brand, but as someone who always took hand-me-downs, I really had no idea where to start. So both the infinity's and polks are @ 8ohms, 6ohm speakers are easily 2x the price, is this ok for the 708???
Newegg:
2x Polk TSI 400 = 360
4x Polk TSI 100 = 400
1x Polk Center CS 20 = 150
$910
Crutchfield:
2x Infinity Primus P362 = 400
4x Infinity Primus P162 = 340
1x Infinity PC350 = 200
$940

So for only $30 more I can get the upper end of the Infinitys Primus category, and I avoid the possible issue of interference the TSI200s could give if I lay them down on their sides. And I will get more power capable speakers with a larger single cone. Besides not listing a sub, did I miss anything? Do these 2 systems directly compare? To me, the frequency response, nominal impedance, and sensitivity all seem to be in the same ball park.

Another compatability Q: Upscaling

I have been using either Power DVD 9, or Windows Media Center/Player with my desktop set to 1920x1200 on my TV to play DVDs & Blurays. I don't believe they upscale regular DVD's when I play them, and I'm actually pretty sure the TV downscales the 1200 to 1080. With a new receiver, will the dvd picture be upscaled if I send it over a digital interface(DVI/HDMI) to the receiver, or will it be detected that the desktop resolution is already 1080 and nothing would occur??? Do I need more software, or should I just use an upconverting dvd player to get a better signal to the receiver?

 

[brotj7]

Also, should I be looking at the last gen speakers, I know a Polk RTI4 with bi-amping is only $150/pair, and the Polk Audio CSi3 center is only $120. Are these better speakers than the current gen polks or Infinitys at a lower price??? Ditto for the the last gen Infinitys???

 

[s44]

So for only $30 more I can get the upper end of the Infinitys Primus category, and I avoid the possible issue of interference the TSI200s could give if I lay them down on their sides. And I will get more power capable speakers with a larger single cone.

I don't want to lock you into a *different* big brand, but that's about the gist. The Infinitys are also a bit more efficient, but don't look quite as nice.

Modern PC playback software will do all the upscaling you need -- assuming you have an accompanying modern vidcard anyway.

I don't know enough about the different old/new Polk lines to help on that. Actually, the Infinity Prelude *is* pretty much "last gen", in that they haven't been updated in a while -- but Infinity speakers from two generations before that are good too -- if you can find a cheap set of used Interludes, they're pretty sweet. (Similar to the famous but now sadly unavailable Betas that succeeded them, one step above the Prelude line.)

The problem, I think, is if you want a full matched set, getting something that's disappearing or actually only secondhand now will run the risk of it going OOS before you get the budget for your next round... On the other hand, matching surrounds to fronts isn't as important as matching LCR, though I'm not sure if front heights are more tricky.

 

[brotj7]

Well the wifey just chimed in... we have to plan our $ for christmas shopping tomorrow, and she asked what is taking so long and how much to get the tv again. I started walking her through my upgrade process plan. She looked at me a little peeved for a minute and asked exactly how much I think this whole thing is ginna cost....then the most beautiful thing happened... As she was getting fed up as I mentioned bass, surrounds, uppers, and started finagling around online showing her stats and talking value, she noticed the free sub promo at crutchfield with a $499 onkyo purchase, and said "Get the big ones with that one and that's it, I want my f#@$ing tv back!!!" Gotta love that grocery store "SALE" mentality... lol

So it looks like I'll be getting the Onkyo 807, 2x TSI400, and the PSW125amp for $550. My little brother still owes me for a loan, so maybe I can talk him into getting me the CS20 for christmas. Either way a few reviews have said the towers should be ok without a center, so I can go without for a while, or another option is to use my old one and not crank the system until I replace it. I did think about the infinitys but the good subs that matched the Primus 362's offset the price savings from those towers.

s44- I can't thank you enough for all your help, I appreciate it soo much. Happy Holidays!