Current state of affairs of the anarchy in Haiti

[FelixDeCat]

Criminal gangs and vigilantes opposed to gangs have all taken up arms over the years as the country no longer has a functioning government. No place is safe in Haiti. The gangs have grown powerful over the years as they were secretly armed and funded by politicians to deliver votes. Now the gangs have taken control in the power vacuum left after the government has effectively collapsed. Police are no match for the criminals who roam free to do as they please.

Here is a good video providing some detail on the current state of affairs in Haiti and a brief history that has led to it:

(the thumbnail is misleading, Youtube will not allow violent images to be shown)

Im not sure what the solution is here other than to either let one gang dominate and establish a quasi government or an international force to invade and restore order.

Not sure what else can be done.

 

[eelw]

And Repugnicans question why migrants take the risks to leave their country.

 

[FelixDeCat]

And Repugnicans question why migrants take the risks to leave their country.

Is leaving the solution? Imagine this was your home country. What would you want other nations to do to help? Or would you want their help?

 

[Leeea]

Well, after the French did their thing, and the Spanish did their thing;

Invade Haiti, Wall Street Urged. The U.S. Obliged. (Published 2022)

The long occupation of Haiti began with a drumbeat from the bank that became Citigroup, decades of diplomatic correspondence and other records show.

www.nytimes.com

In the drowsy hours of a December afternoon, eight American Marines strolled into the headquarters of Haiti’s national bank and walked out with $500,000 in gold, packed in wooden boxes.

The operation took place in 1914 — a precursor to the full-scale invasion of Haiti. American forces took over the country the following summer and ruled it with brute force for 19 years, one of the longest military occupations in American history. Even after the soldiers left in 1934, Haiti remained under the control of American financial officers who pulled the country’s purse strings for another 13 years.

Under heavy pressure from National City Bank, Citigroup’s predecessor, the Americans elbowed the French aside and became the dominant power in Haiti for decades to come. The United States dissolved Haiti’s parliament at gunpoint, killed thousands of people, controlled its finances for more than 30 years, shipped a big portion of its earnings to bankers in New York and left behind a country so poor that the farmers who helped generate the profits often lived on a diet “close to starvation level,” United Nations officials determined in 1949, soon after the Americans let go of the reins.

Haitians need to just pull themselves up by their bootstraps. I do not understand what the problem is here?


To be fair, Haitian self governance has not gone well, both modern and in the imperial era. However, it is also fair to say it never had a chance with outside powers periodically looting it.

 

[Thump553]

Haiti is the west half of an island, the east half of which is the Dominican Republic. The people, original natural resources, colonization history of both countries are essentially the same. While the Dominican Republic has certainly had it's problems it is a paradise compared to Haiti Certainly at least part of Haiti's problem has been outside interference (originally by Europeans, more recently by the USA) the same is also true for the Dominican Republic.

Haiti has been a sh*thole for decades, absorbing vast amounts of aid with no positive changes. Presently it is basically a country with a very high population growth (most of the population are children) with short and hard life expectancies. It has literally no economy expect for aid. Even the forests have been stripped for firewood for cooking. While certainly the devastating earthquake of 2010 certainly caused more problems the world did pour in vast amounts of aid in response.

For once I agree with OP-I have no idea what to do. But clearly what we have been doing for decades-while well intentioned-hasn''t worked and been a waste.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Haiti is the west half of an island, the east half of which is the Dominican Republic. The people, original natural resources, colonization history of both countries are essentially the same. While the Dominican Republic has certainly had it's problems it is a paradise compared to Haiti Certainly at least part of Haiti's problem has been outside interference (originally by Europeans, more recently by the USA) the same is also true for the Dominican Republic.

I know its easy for me to say, but the DR should do more to help their island neighbors by allowing women and children a safe place to stay while order is restored in Haiti. International aid could be funneled into that effort. Who will restore order in Haiti is the question.

The current PM of Haiti was negotiating with Kenya to send security forces to the country to help bring about order. One leader of the larger groups of gangs has said these forces will be treated as invaders:

MSN

 

[HomerJS]

This isn't that much different what was attempted on Jan 6. We would have had that same chaos in the streets

 

[eelw]

Yeah if the Jan 6 insurrections decided to use their metal penises, how bad would have it been?

 

[GodisanAtheist]

Im not sure what the solution is here other than to either let one gang dominate and establish a quasi government or an international force to invade and restore order.

Not sure what else can be done.

-That's pretty much it. IMO the first option is likely the most viable one. Find the gang that basically sucks ass the least and boost them so they dominate and bring stability.

Right now and for the foreseeable future stability will be much more important to Haitians than any pipe dream of democracy and western liberal ideals, etc which means having the stomach to back some shitty dudes.

The problem with a lot of these 3rd world shit holes is that no one actually has the resources or logistics to actually win a war, and so these civil war scenarios drag out for 10/15/20 years or more, more and more atrocities are committed out of frustration, and whatever hope of a civil society skips one or more generations creating a foundational issue no foreign invader is ever going to fix.

 

[dank69]

Looks like a libertarian's wet dream. Weird though that they are resorting to might makes right instead of building a bunch of privately funded infrastructure.

 

[FelixDeCat]

-That's pretty much it. IMO the first option is likely the most viable one. Find the gang that basically sucks ass the least and boost them so they dominate and bring stability.

Right now and for the foreseeable future stability will be much more important to Haitians than any pipe dream of democracy and western liberal ideals, etc which means having the stomach to back some shitty dudes.

The problem with a lot of these 3rd world shit holes is that no one actually has the resources or logistics to actually win a war, and so these civil war scenarios drag out for 10/15/20 years or more, more and more atrocities are committed out of frustration, and whatever hope of a civil society skips one or more generations creating a foundational issue no foreign invader is ever going to fix.

If one gang winds up on top, it would not be the first country ruled by a non democratic warlord.

Afghanistan was ruled by regional warlords for a very long time until the Taliban consolidated power. When the US invaded we tried to install a puppet government but the warlords simply took control again.

Ultimately Afghanistan is happy with a quasi theocracy. Not everyone desires democracy.

Certain countries can only function with strong men dictators like Papa Doc Duvallair or Hugo Chavez, otherwise criminals take power like the garbage we have in Mexico where even the current president defends cartels as jobs programs for the poor...or it could be fears them as well.

Post videos online criticizing cartel members online here in America. People have been killed for doing that. They have scores of contract hit men in the US that work for peanuts to keep dealers in line. I've been meaning to make a thread about how powerful they are now here in America.

 

[MrSquished]

If one gang winds up on top, it would not be the first country ruled by a non democratic warlord.

Afghanistan was ruled by regional warlords for a very long time until the Taliban consolidated power. When the US invaded we tried to install a puppet government but the warlords simply took control again.

Ultimately Afghanistan is happy with a quasi theocracy. Not everyone desires democracy.

Certain countries can only function with strong men dictators like Papa Doc Duvallair or Hugo Chavez, otherwise criminals take power like the garbage we have in Mexico where even the current president defends cartels as jobs programs for the poor...or it could be fears them as well.

Post videos online criticizing cartel members online here in America. They will likely have you killed if you press the right buttons. They have scores of contract hit men in the US that work for peanuts to keep dealers in line. I've been meaning to make a thread about how powerful they are now here in America.

Your power of observation are simply amazingly stupid.

also, your party wants to turn this country into a quasi theocracy, along with a white nationalist fascist one. Too funny.

 

[fskimospy]

If one gang winds up on top, it would not be the first country ruled by a non democratic warlord.

Afghanistan was ruled by regional warlords for a very long time until the Taliban consolidated power. When the US invaded we tried to install a puppet government but the warlords simply took control again.

Ultimately Afghanistan is happy with a quasi theocracy. Not everyone desires democracy.

Certain countries can only function with strong men dictators like Papa Doc Duvallair or Hugo Chavez, otherwise criminals take power like the garbage we have in Mexico where even the current president defends cartels as jobs programs for the poor...or it could be fears them as well.

Post videos online criticizing cartel members online here in America. People have been killed for doing that. They have scores of contract hit men in the US that work for peanuts to keep dealers in line. I've been meaning to make a thread about how powerful they are now here in America.

Unfortunately 'not everyone desires democracy' is increasingly encompassing Republicans.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/08/republican-party-authoritarian/

 

[thraashman]

Certain countries can only function with strong men dictators like Papa Doc

You know, I was wondering what happened to him after Rabbit beat him in a rap battle.

 

[Indus]

Is leaving the solution? Imagine this was your home country. What would you want other nations to do to help? Or would you want their help?

Lets see if this was your home country, you'd want to outlaw abortion and install leader with orange hair as leader and more killings!

Yep.. that's preview of Trumpistan right there.

 

[FelixDeCat]

You know, I was wondering what happened to him after Rabbit beat him in a rap battle.

Lets see if this was your home country, you'd want to outlaw abortion and install leader with orange hair as leader and more killings!

Yep.. that's preview of Trumpistan right there.

Looks like this thread is going to the dogs. 😆

 

[FelixDeCat]

You know, I was wondering what happened to him after Rabbit beat him in a rap battle.

Wait till you hear abou his son, Baby Doc Duvallair.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Unfortunately 'not everyone desires democracy' is increasingly encompassing Republicans.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2024/04/08/republican-party-authoritarian/

Both sides have much to answer for. It takes two to tango.

 

[fskimospy]

Both sides have much to answer for. It takes two to tango.

Nope - no #bothsides here. Republicans are clearly far more interested in anti-democratic moves than Democrats.

 

[Indus]

Both sides have much to answer for. It takes two to tango.

Bwahahahahahahahahaha.

Becoming quite clear, anything less than Putin is a nightmare for you. So just fucking move already.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Bwahahahahahahahahaha.

Becoming quite clear, anything less than Putin is a nightmare for you. So just fucking move already.

Ummm, no. Have you started drinking again?

 

[Jaskalas]

-That's pretty much it. IMO the first option is likely the most viable one. Find the gang that basically sucks ass the least and boost them so they dominate and bring stability.

The problem is our concept of morality does not include winning wars. Because winning a war means slaughtering your enemies, and our sensibilities are too delicate for that.
Case studies: the governments we built in Afghanistan and Iraq. One only ever existed on paper. The other lost half their country before Iranian militias stepped in and ended the carnage.
A more extreme example would be Israel VS Hamas.

Any winners we pick are done so only after we ensure that they are kneecapped. Doomed to eternal weakness and bloody conflict. Never allowed to truly defeat their enemies and secure a lasting peace.

 

[FelixDeCat]

Papa Doc Duvalier...strongman dictator of Haiti​

A "country doctor" who took over the country, killed thousands of Haitians and terrorized the country to stay in power for decades:

 

[ch33zw1z]

Sounds similar to what the GOP is pushing in this country. Violence against others is just part of the deal.

 

[ch33zw1z]

The problem is our concept of morality does not include winning wars. Because winning a war means slaughtering your enemies, and our sensibilities are too delicate for that.
Case studies: the governments we built in Afghanistan and Iraq. One only ever existed on paper. The other lost half their country before Iranian militias stepped in and ended the carnage.
A more extreme example would be Israel VS Hamas.

Any winners we pick are done so only after we ensure that they are kneecapped. Doomed to eternal weakness and bloody conflict. Never allowed to truly defeat their enemies and secure a lasting peace.

America doesn't fight wars over morality, it's about money. We as a country have no real qualms about destroying human life. In fact, many U.S. citizens encourage and relish this ideal, even elect officials to the highest offices that champion violence against fellow citizens.