Cuba . . . China . . . which has made more progress in the past three decades

[BaliBabyDoc]

I think about this often b/c I have Chinese and Cuban friends . . . mind you not south Florida Cubans . . . those people aren't right in the head.

Chinese leadership has changed hands several times in the past three decades but it's still just one lifetime Communist Party member to another. Yet, China . . . with all its internal issues . . . has undeniably become more open, free, and prosperous. Sure, it's a pretty low bar considering where they started . . . but it's still amazing progress. We will ignore the forced abortions, sterilization programs, organ harvesting, denial of religious freedom, wretched legal system, and still significant curtailment of freedom of speech.

Now think about Cubans. They've gone almost nowhere in three decades . . . except they do have a top-notch biotech sector (training birds to carry bioweapons to the US and distributed WMD technology to rogue states . . . sayeth John Bolton), they do have the best system of public health in the Carribbean (even better than the US). But in general, much else is much the same from year to year. Clearly Castro deserves much of the credit (blame). But it seems foolish to ignore the US role. The US has always been Castro's excuse for domestic failings. But who do Americans blame (credit) for the failure of the US embargo to bring about change? Do Americans care?

Castro's Regime certainly is no civil liberties prize . . . but the block on communication/interaction is primarily prohibitions from the US to Cuba . . . not the other way around. As opposed to China, which tries to control media both in and out . . . even to the extent of co-opting US companies to do its bidding. Oh and wander away from a tour group in mainland China . . .

DOD is actively planning 'contingencies' for an aggressive militant China. Rumsfeld openly criticizes their military 'secretiveness' and buildup. Yet we finance their operations . . . to the tune of most favored nation . . . net several hundred billion per year. On the flipside, we restrict US travel and trade to deny hard currency to Castro's oppressive regime. But send tens of billions to Venezuela?😕

Condi "I sux as a diplomat" Rice wants $80mil for the US to prepare for the Cuban transition. IMO, we could 'prepare' for the transition for free. Let Americans freely travel/talk/exchange with Cubans. Best case scenario, Cubans decide they are ready for something more than a failed revolution. Worst case scenario, Florida loses tourism money. Seriously, it's not like Cuba is going to be the next DPRK or even China. They pretty much have nowhere to go but up b/c Castro long established the floor. IMHO, we would be foolish to wait on Castro's demise. We want Cubans to chose American values (the good ones) to emulate while Castro is still a living role model for how not to run a country.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

more on why US policy towards Cuba has failed in the past and likely our future

Cuba expert Philip Peters of the Lexington Institute, a Virginia-based think tank, said normalization of relations between Cuba and the United States could take time.

"Despite extensive planning for a full transition, it seems more likely that after Fidel Castro's departure, we will see a socialist successor government that will decide whether, where, and how fast to reform the policies it inherits," Peters wrote in a recent column.

"Washington will then have to decide how to use U.S. influence to promote positive change," said Peters, a former State Department appointee during the Reagan and first Bush administrations.

He noted that U.S. influence "will be limited by decades of policies that have blocked communication between our peoples and governments, and by the all-or-nothing posture that the Helms-Burton law imposes on U.S. diplomacy."

Helms-Burton is retarded but Bush has made it even worse.

But naturally the Bushistas are incredibly arrogant and ignorant.

The report also calls on the the U.S. "to put in place preparations that will ensure that the U.S. will be in a position to provide technical assistance in the first two weeks after a determination that a Cuban transition is under way."

That would include legal experts to help with elections. Training judges and police would be essential, according to the report.

The six months immediately following Castro's death or ouster would be key to determining U.S. success in the mission, the report says.

"This critical 180-day period could mean the difference between a successful transition period and the stumbles and missteps that have slowed other states in their transitions toward democracy," the report says.

My guess is that the previous 4-5 decades has more bearing on our success in Cuba than 180 days after Castro takes the dirt nap.

Regardless . . . who would want anyone associated with the Bush Regime to provide legal 'expertise?' I guess we would send Brown for disaster preparedness, Myers for border control, Kerik for police, Paige for education, Falwell for religious freedom, and the Porter CIA for human rights.:roll:

 

[Moonbeam]

Here's hoping your brilliance doesn't make you bitter.

I don't know the answer. I have always liked the idea of an enlightened dictator or king and never cared for dictatorship. That will mean I have to look for a government of enlightened people. Don't expect to find one any time soon.

 

[International Machine Consortium]

I'm told by a good friend in U.S. health care that Cuba's system puts ours to shame.
In other news, I read recently that Bush was stepping up sanctions....

It's just another in a long list of Bush administration failures and hence an American failure.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
I'm told by a good friend in U.S. health care that Cuba's system puts ours to shame.
In other news, I read recently that Bush was stepping up sanctions....

It's just another in a long list of Bush administration failures and hence an American failure.

Everything seems to be so peachy in Cuba, makes me wonder why people swim 90 miles to that dump called the United States.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
I'm told by a good friend in U.S. health care that Cuba's system puts ours to shame.
In other news, I read recently that Bush was stepping up sanctions....

It's just another in a long list of Bush administration failures and hence an American failure.

Everything seems to be so peachy in Cuba, makes me wonder why people swim 90 miles to that dump called the United States.

Hmm, is your government collecting your phone records? Keeping track of protesters? Orchestrate public gatherings so 'elected' officials won't face difficult questions? Is there an ever growing disparity between the haves and have nots? Are people claiming the public education system is failing and needs dramatic reforms? Are people claiming the healthcare system needs dramatic reforms? How about the retirement system? Keeping any prisoners for years without charge? Have a problem with brutal crimes due to race (James Byrd) or sexual orientation (Matt Shepard)?

But I digress, don't let your ignorance of the island cloud your poor judgment. Cuba does indeed have serious internal issues: political repression, economic stagnation, poverty. But the typical Cuban has access to a decent education and undeniably the best healthcare in the region. One of the best recognized indicators of maternal/child health (infant mortality) is better in Cuba than the US; despite the fact Cuba spends FAR FAR less per capita. Then again almost every developed country does a better job than the US. In fact, basic Cuban healthcare is so good, Castro has been sending doctors to serve Venezeula . . . in exchange for heavily subsidized oil.

Cuban biotech is also hot stuff. It's actually remarkable given the paucity of resources . . . largely due to the US embargo.

I do find in fanciful that Bushistas call Cuba a 'closed society' when any South American, European, Asian, African, Australian, Mexican, or Canadian can travel there on a whim . . . while it is the USA that prohibits its citizens from visiting.

Is there a travel ban to Sudan, China, Equatorial Guinea, Uzbekistan, Iran, or Syria? Here's a radical idea . . . why don't we stop being hypocrites about Cuba? American dollars support despots, dictators, oligarchs, and theocracies the world over in one way or another. Unrestricted (by the US) travel to the island will not be a balm for Castro's failures. If anything, development that follows US investment (and relief from Helms-Burton) would clearly demarcate the poor fiscal policies of Castro's rule. Not to mention, it would become impossible for Cuban security forces to keep track of thousands upon thousands of US tourists as they mingle, talk, worship, plan, organize, and fellowship with Cubans of every political inclination.

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Everything seems to be so peachy in Cuba, makes me wonder why people swim 90 miles to that dump called the United States.

There you go again, presenting pesky little facts.

 

[compuwiz1]

Much of Cuba is still driving American built cars, which were manufactured in the 50's.

The only progress they can seem to make, is to keep repairing old automobiles. That should tell you a lot.

 

[imported_Tango]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1
Much of Cuba is still driving American built cars, which were manufactured in the 50's.

The only progress they can seem to make, is to keep repairing old automobiles. That should tell you a lot.

You kinda forget about 30 years of embargo....

Cuba is first in the world in many statistical indicators of Education and Healthcare system performance. They invest in scientific research twice the amount of money Italy does, and Italy is a G7 country.. you can figure what percentage of the Cuban GDP this would be...

Castro's regime is a brutal, but Cuba has accomplished a lot even under his rule and despite the embargo.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

We may need to cheer for Raul.

Other veteran Cuba analysts, not surprisingly, insist that this is too charitable a characterization of a man so long associated with an oppressive military and security apparatus, responsible for imprisoning and in many instances torturing thousands of dissidents. And a number of factors could keep Raul on the hard line even after Fidel dies.

For a little context, the earlier parts of the article include hypotheses about a 'progressive' Cuba under Raul.

What's more, just beneath Raul sit a number of younger and ideologically purer communist officials, like 40-year-old Foreign Minister Felipe Perez Roque, who are known derisively by many Cubans as "los Taliban" and could limit Raul's room to maneuver on any potential reform.

Ain't that beotch . . . Condi Rice . . . or Ann Coulter . . .

 

[sandorski]

Cuba has reformed its' economy a little over the years. It's funny how Castro is still the boogeyman when the USSR was welcomed with open arms when Gorbechov brought about Perestroika(sp). Cuba villified for allowing the USSR to install Nuclear Missiles, while the maker of those Missiles gets the Red Carpet treatment.

Despite it all Cuba has done fairly well, even surpassing other Central/South American Nations which have US backing, as mentioned above.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

yahoo

Here's reason #4,512 why I hate the Bush Regime. They appear to be dumb and dumber on every policy of significance.

The plan would crack down on smugglers and refuse U.S. entry to Cuban government officials who have engaged in human rights abuses.

Uh, didn't we have a Cuban terrorist living in south Florida? Aren't there members of the Bush administration that essentially codified torture as US policy?

But it would make it easier for some Cuban doctors to move to the U.S.

I thought we wanted Cuba to build a sustainable society. Why would we encourage physicians to leave the island?

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
yahoo

Here's reason #4,512 why I hate the Bush Regime. They appear to be dumb and dumber on every policy of significance.

The plan would crack down on smugglers and refuse U.S. entry to Cuban government officials who have engaged in human rights abuses.

Uh, didn't we have a Cuban terrorist living in south Florida? Aren't there members of the Bush administration that essentially codified torture as US policy?

But it would make it easier for some Cuban doctors to move to the U.S.

I thought we wanted Cuba to build a sustainable society. Why would we encourage physicians to leave the island?

Welcome to the psychopathic US.

 

[cwjerome]

There's a thousand and one differences between the countries of Cuba and China... I dare say some contexts might require a pragmatic approach and others may necessitate a more principled approach. Given the circumstances -especially political, after all, this is a democratic nation- I can easily see why there was a divergence in geopolitical strategies between the two.

Would Cuba be a better country today if the US had opened its arms like it did with China? Yes. Was it our responsibility or obligation to do so? Absolutely not. (as usual, the proper placement of "blame" gets all goat-shaped by some people). Should we do it today? Yeah, maybe... I wouldn't necessarily be against it. Embargos generally make life more miserable for the population while not doing a thing towards regime or policy change. I'm pretty sure opening to Cuba will be more effective if the goal is political and economic reform.

However, statements like this: "Castro's regime is a brutal, but Cuba has accomplished a lot even under his rule" makes me laugh. Naitivity? Ignorance? Skewed morality? In any Cuba topic, invariably, there's the usual bunch of socialist sympathizers who say things like that... but the predictability of these comments doesn't make it any easier to swallow. The fact that they come from the very same people who will ceacelessly nitpick any molecule of percieved American "badness" in every possible situation kind of defies logic, but it's actually an interesting glimmer of the truth they usually try to hide from themselves: The fact that they hold the US to so much higher standards than most other countries is their implicit recognition of the moral superiority of America and the importance of America as a leader.

Just my 2 cents on the topic and the comments so far.

 

[Termagant]

Basically any way to get a quick bash in on Bush is the reason for loving Castro.

I'm definitely not a fan of Bush but that doesn't make me necessarily like anything about Castro, Hezbollah, etc.

 

[Thump553]

Considering what Cuba was before Castro-a totally corrupt South American dictatorship, owned in equal shares by the US Mafia (Havana) and big US fruit companies (the rest of the country, and considering that Cuba has be bearing the constant and unrelenting efforts of US to undermine it for 40+ years, it's astonishing how far they have come. As mentioned above, but little known in the US, Cuba has one of the best, most egalitarian health care systems in the world.

Now I'm certainly not an apologist for Cuba and Castro-its a one man dictatorship where political and human rights mean nothing-but to compare them to China, where the US has poured millions, if not billions of dollars, is hardly a fair comparison.

China is a far bigger threat to the US than Cuba could ever be, and I'm one of the tiny percentage of US consumers that boycotts Chinese goods as much as possible.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: International Machine Consortium
I'm told by a good friend in U.S. health care that Cuba's system puts ours to shame.
In other news, I read recently that Bush was stepping up sanctions....

It's just another in a long list of Bush administration failures and hence an American failure.

Everything seems to be so peachy in Cuba, makes me wonder why people swim 90 miles to that dump called the United States.

Hmm, is your government collecting your phone records? Keeping track of protesters? Orchestrate public gatherings so 'elected' officials won't face difficult questions? Is there an ever growing disparity between the haves and have nots? Are people claiming the public education system is failing and needs dramatic reforms? Are people claiming the healthcare system needs dramatic reforms? How about the retirement system? Keeping any prisoners for years without charge? Have a problem with brutal crimes due to race (James Byrd) or sexual orientation (Matt Shepard)?

But I digress, don't let your ignorance of the island cloud your poor judgment. Cuba does indeed have serious internal issues: political repression, economic stagnation, poverty. But the typical Cuban has access to a decent education and undeniably the best healthcare in the region. One of the best recognized indicators of maternal/child health (infant mortality) is better in Cuba than the US; despite the fact Cuba spends FAR FAR less per capita. Then again almost every developed country does a better job than the US. In fact, basic Cuban healthcare is so good, Castro has been sending doctors to serve Venezeula . . . in exchange for heavily subsidized oil.

Cuban biotech is also hot stuff. It's actually remarkable given the paucity of resources . . . largely due to the US embargo.

I do find in fanciful that Bushistas call Cuba a 'closed society' when any South American, European, Asian, African, Australian, Mexican, or Canadian can travel there on a whim . . . while it is the USA that prohibits its citizens from visiting.

Is there a travel ban to Sudan, China, Equatorial Guinea, Uzbekistan, Iran, or Syria? Here's a radical idea . . . why don't we stop being hypocrites about Cuba? American dollars support despots, dictators, oligarchs, and theocracies the world over in one way or another. Unrestricted (by the US) travel to the island will not be a balm for Castro's failures. If anything, development that follows US investment (and relief from Helms-Burton) would clearly demarcate the poor fiscal policies of Castro's rule. Not to mention, it would become impossible for Cuban security forces to keep track of thousands upon thousands of US tourists as they mingle, talk, worship, plan, organize, and fellowship with Cubans of every political inclination.

Like I said, sounds like a regular communist utopian dream. I cant believe people risk their lives swimming 90 miles to the dump prison camp called the United States.

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

^^

Why bother quoting an entire post but not actually reading it?

Cuba does indeed have serious internal issues: political repression, economic stagnation, poverty.

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
^^

Why bother quoting an entire post but not actually reading it?

Cuba does indeed have serious internal issues: political repression, economic stagnation, poverty.

Because it is easier than editing.

Then you spent the rest of the time apologizing for the communists in Cuba and deflecting onto the United States.

I suggest getting on a boat and living there since it sounds so great.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: Genx87
Then you spent the rest of the time apologizing for the communists in Cuba and deflecting onto the United States.

I suggest getting on a boat and living there since it sounds so great.

Yeah, BaliBabyDoc, he's right. If you love Cuba and those dirty communists so much MAYBE YOU SHOULD JUST MARRY THEM (and other assorted completely simple minded phrases only a child or an intellectually underdeveloped adult would use).

If you're not willing to hate everyone our government tells you to hate then maybe you shouldn't be part of this country. GO HOME FURENER!

 

[Genx87]

Originally posted by: FrancesBeansRevenge

Originally posted by: Genx87
Then you spent the rest of the time apologizing for the communists in Cuba and deflecting onto the United States.

I suggest getting on a boat and living there since it sounds so great.

Yeah, BaliBabyDoc, he's right. If you love Cuba and those dirty communists so much MAYBE YOU SHOULD JUST MARRY THEM (and other assorted completely simple minded phrases only a child or an intellectually underdeveloped adult would use).

If you're not willing to hate everyone our government tells you to hate then maybe you shouldn't be part of this country. GO HOME FURENER!

Anybody else see the irony in this post?

 

[BaliBabyDoc]

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
^^

Why bother quoting an entire post but not actually reading it?

Cuba does indeed have serious internal issues: political repression, economic stagnation, poverty.

Because it is easier than editing.

Then you spent the rest of the time apologizing for the communists in Cuba and deflecting onto the United States.

I suggest getting on a boat and living there since it sounds so great.

Maybe you're just a lazy, ignorant, and arrogant American? Cuba is a real country not the caricature of south Florida expats nor left-of-center radicals. It has positives and negatives. Further, it is probably more accurate described as a socialist, totalitarian regime not communist.

Education is indeed decent. Hmm, that doesn't exactly sound like great praise.

Their healthcare system (public health) is indeed quite good compared to other Carribbean islands. Granted . . . that's a low bar. Kinda like saying George Bush is less deserving of impeachment than Richard Nixon.

Infant mortality rate is a globally-accepted standard for maternal/child health. You can get mad that Cuba does better than the US but that doesn't change the facts. If you had a clue you might argue that looking at the 'best' aspects of American healthcare are better than the 'best' Cuba has to offer . . . but I imagine that's beyond your ability.

The embargo is just plain dumb. It hurts the typical Cuban citizen far more than it hurts Castro. In fact, he basically uses the embargo as a PR balm for every ill of the island. Apparently, truthiness works in Cuba, too.

 

[Genx87]

but I imagine that's beyond your ability.

Ability, or my level of giving a damn?

I find it amusing when people paint cuba in a favorable light while thousands will risk their life swimming 90 miles of ocean to get away from it.

That is all.

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: Genx87
I find it amusing...

You know what they say about small minds... 😛

 

[FrancesBeansRevenge]

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc

Originally posted by: Genx87

Originally posted by: BaliBabyDoc
^^

Why bother quoting an entire post but not actually reading it?

Cuba does indeed have serious internal issues: political repression, economic stagnation, poverty.

Because it is easier than editing.

Then you spent the rest of the time apologizing for the communists in Cuba and deflecting onto the United States.

I suggest getting on a boat and living there since it sounds so great.

Maybe you're just a lazy, ignorant, and arrogant American? Cuba is a real country not the caricature of south Florida expats nor left-of-center radicals. It has positives and negatives. Further, it is probably more accurate described as a socialist, totalitarian regime not communist.

Education is indeed decent. Hmm, that doesn't exactly sound like great praise.

Their healthcare system (public health) is indeed quite good compared to other Carribbean islands. Granted . . . that's a low bar. Kinda like saying George Bush is less deserving of impeachment than Richard Nixon.

Infant mortality rate is a globally-accepted standard for maternal/child health. You can get mad that Cuba does better than the US but that doesn't change the facts. If you had a clue you might argue that looking at the 'best' aspects of American healthcare are better than the 'best' Cuba has to offer . . . but I imagine that's beyond your ability.

The embargo is just plain dumb. It hurts the typical Cuban citizen far more than it hurts Castro. In fact, he basically uses the embargo as a PR balm for every ill of the island. Apparently, truthiness works in Cuba, too.

Why bother BBB? Some people have no ability for independent critical thought. They hate who they're told to hate and ask few questions why.