Crysis 2 Tessellation Article

[Lonbjerg]

You don't have to buy a company....you just have to 'bribe' them....errrrr 'help them' with the game.

I hope you have evidence of this bribe and have taken steps to report it.

Otherwise you post holds no value.

 

[Arkadrel]

I hope you have evidence of this bribe and have taken steps to report it.

Otherwise you post holds no value.

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... it most likely is a duck.

Read the artical on the first page, about the implimentation of tessellation in this game.

Quite simply Nvidia are up to no good. Was there a actual bribe? hell if I know, can it be proven? most likely not.

That doesnt mean that TWIMTBP in Crysis2 implimentation isnt dubious.

It "seem"s like its added only to give nvidia a edge in benchmarks, this goes back to the duck argument, and the in-depth artical on the implimentation of tessellation on page1.

 

[Keysplayr]

When a company spends money to exploit the strengths of it's product, (strengths defined by what it does better than it's competition), it usually results in the competitions weakness being exposed. In this case, tesselation or the sheer amount of it. You guys don't see this, but users with Nvidia cards "like" when Nvidia does this. AMD guys, not so much and that is understandable.

 

[Arkadrel]

@Keys

its not about the amount of tessellation in the game, and how that might favor nvidia, to use insane amounts. That parts all fair play.

Its when you have invisible ocean mesh with tessaltion in area's without a sea (cant argue for better visual quality when its not seen, and thus taxing the gpu with tessellation for no reason).

Stuff like that "seem" like its there for no other reason than to make nvidia look better in benchmarks.

 

[NIGELG]

I hope you have evidence of this bribe and have taken steps to report it.

Otherwise you post holds no value.

Errrrr...I was speaking generally.... but hey if falls in your green garden.

 

[Lonbjerg]

If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck.... it most likely is a duck.

So you work for AMD's PR?

Read the artical on the first page, about the implimentation of tessellation in this game.

Quite simply Nvidia are up to no good. Was there a actual bribe? hell if I know, can it be proven? most likely not.

That doesnt mean that TWIMTBP in Crysis2 implimentation isnt dubious.

It "seem"s like its added only to give nvidia a edge in benchmarks, this goes back to the duck argument, and the in-depth artical on the implimentation of tessellation on page1.

Show me the source code and highligth the "bad" code.
Untill then the article is worthless...

 

[Keysplayr]

@Keys

its not about the amount of tessellation in the game, and how that might favor nvidia, to use insane amounts. That parts all fair play.

Its when you have invisible ocean mesh with tessaltion in area's without a sea (cant argue for better visual quality when its not seen, and thus taxing the gpu with tessellation for no reason).

Stuff like that "seem" like its there for no other reason than to make nvidia look better in benchmarks.

Yes, it "seems" like it could be, but really only to AMD users. Nvidia users don't mind so much because their cards can usually handle that level of tesselation. AMD cards not so much. But there is a bright side for AMD users in that that most games out there that use tesselation, have an option to turn it off, or down? At least I don't know of any that do not have that option. I could be wrong though. Not to go OT here, but the same thing applies to PhysX in games. Turn it off. Pretty soon, AMD users may have to turn every new feature off in order to play. Of course this statement is an exaggeration, but that is the general direction AMD users are headed. Maybe the 7 series will not suffer from this and have superior tesselation performance to Nvidia's offering. You never know. Or, some other feature that Nvidia doesn't do so well in. Fair is fair. If your hardware can't cut it, get different hardware.

 

[NIGELG]

Yes, it "seems" like it could be, but really only to AMD users. Nvidia users don't mind so much because their cards can usually handle that level of tesselation. AMD cards not so much. But there is a bright side for AMD users in that that most games out there that use tesselation, have an option to turn it off, or down? At least I don't know of any that do not have that option. I could be wrong though. Not to go OT here, but the same thing applies to PhysX in games. Turn it off. Pretty soon, AMD users may have to turn every new feature off in order to play. Of course this statement is an exaggeration, but that is the general direction AMD users are headed. Maybe the 7 series will not suffer from this and have superior tesselation performance to Nvidia's offering. You never know. Or, some other feature that Nvidia doesn't do so well in. Fair is fair. If your hardware can't cut it, get different hardware.

So tell me from a common sense point of view...Is there a technical reason to tesselate an unseen ocean?

 

[krumme]

Yes, it "seems" like it could be, but really only to AMD users. Nvidia users don't mind so much because their cards can usually handle that level of tesselation.

Well i am an Nvidia user, and i think its idiotic to slow down my card and give me fewer fps, when there is no benefit. Please explain to me, how that is an advantage for me as a consumer?

 

[Keysplayr]

Well i am an Nvidia user, and i think its idiotic to slow down my card and give me fewer fps, when there is no benefit. Please explain to me, how that is an advantage for me as a consumer?

So tell me from a common sense point of view...Is there a technical reason to tesselate an unseen ocean?

Has anyone yet asked the developer why this was done? Whoever cares to should ask them. But, I must add that if you're expecting nothing but a lie as an answer, (predetermined that this is all a conspiracy) then don't bother. Somebody neutral should ask. IMHO.

 

[Fox5]

I don't think nvidia normally pays companies to do much of anything with their games.

Rather they donate developers to help add code and features to the game. These developers are pricey with limited time, so they are probably going to take the easiest route to achieve their goals.

The big sea of tessellated water is probably more so laziness (perhaps due to a decision crytek made before nvidia's assistance to include water everywhere) than maliciousness.

 

[thilanliyan]

Has anyone yet asked the developer why this was done? Whoever cares to should ask them. But, I must add that if you're expecting nothing but a lie as an answer, (predetermined that this is all a conspiracy) then don't bother. Somebody neutral should ask. IMHO.

If it was in fact laziness on the part of the dev that is pretty pathetic. If for example the invisible ocean was done just to make nV cards look better that is even more pathetic for both nV and the dev.

"Fair is fair. If your hardware can't cut it, get different hardware."

^How can you justify useless tessellation? There are even some nV users in here that are against it because it also lowers their performance with no benefit to IQ.

To be fair I have no problem with nV helping out devs to implement some of their own features for the benefit of performance and IQ but in this case it doesn't help performance and doesn't really help IQ either.

 

[Lonbjerg]

I don't think nvidia normally pays companies to do much of anything with their games.

Rather they donate developers to help add code and features to the game. These developers are pricey with limited time, so they are probably going to take the easiest route to achieve their goals.

The big sea of tessellated water is probably more so laziness (perhaps due to a decision crytek made before nvidia's assistance to include water everywhere) than maliciousness.

AFAIR Crysis also had this "feature"...the ocean covered the entire maps, even if most of it were below the ground and never visually rendered.

 

[nemesismk2]

Has anyone yet asked the developer why this was done? Whoever cares to should ask them. But, I must add that if you're expecting nothing but a lie as an answer, (predetermined that this is all a conspiracy) then don't bother. Somebody neutral should ask. IMHO.

I would of thought that people would of already asked crytek to give a straight answer because only they know why it was done like that.

 

[Keysplayr]

I would of thought that people would of already asked crytek to give a straight answer because only they know why it was done like that.

I would have also thought so. But here we are still.

@Thilan: "How can you justify useless tessellation?"

Useless tesselation? If you have been paying attention, Thilan, it is being argued that even tesselation of a concrete K-rail is useless. What's next? Pretty soon Tesselation will be "altogether" a useless feature.
Come on man. Ask the dev before accusing me of justifying useless anything.

"To be fair I have no problem with nV helping out devs to implement some of their own features for the benefit of performance and IQ but in this case it doesn't help performance and doesn't really help IQ either. "

To be fair, you can just turn it off, can't you? Your problem would be solved.

 

[HendrixFan]

Useless tesselation? If you have been paying attention, Thilan, it is being argued that even tesselation of a concrete K-rail is useless. What's next? Pretty soon Tesselation will be "altogether" a useless feature.

The 'ol slippery slope approach instead of arguing the merits of his claims.

There is certainly reason to think tesselation of an unseen ocean under the map is a waste of resources. How you can disagree with that I simply don't know. There are already parts of every scene in Crysis 2 that are NOT tesselated, while other parts are. The question becomes, where should you tesselate to maximize IQ?

As far as asking Crytek why they made some of the tesselation decisions they did, I too would be eager to hear their response. However, TWIMTBP does oftentimes involve Nvidia directly writing code for games (my brother is in the industry and they have done this on games he has worked on, he always uses Nvidia cards as a result) so Crytek may be unwilling or unable to answer that question.

 

[Keysplayr]

The 'ol slippery slope approach instead of arguing the merits of his claims.

There is certainly reason to think tesselation of an unseen ocean under the map is a waste of resources. How you can disagree with that I simply don't know. There are already parts of every scene in Crysis 2 that are NOT tesselated, while other parts are. The question becomes, where should you tesselate to maximize IQ?

As far as asking Crytek why they made some of the tesselation decisions they did, I too would be eager to hear their response. However, TWIMTBP does oftentimes involve Nvidia directly writing code for games (my brother is in the industry and they have done this on games he has worked on, he always uses Nvidia cards as a result) so Crytek may be unwilling or unable to answer that question.

Ohhhhhhh. I see what the problem is here. You think that because I didn't actually come out and "say" that I think invisible tesselated water is a waste, you "think" that I think it's fine.
Let me clear it up. OF COURSE it's a waste if it's invisible. I did NOT think I needed to say that but ok then. LOL. But I also believe that if this mesh was visible, then there were just be over tesselation gripes all the more. LOL again.

And I would agree and be delighted to hear Cryteks response if they were posed this question. Maybe we can get a Crytek rep to post here in this thread!!!! :thumbsup:

 

[dust]

AFAIR Crysis also had this "feature"...the ocean covered the entire maps, even if most of it were below the ground and never visually rendered.

Oh, that's ok then, I thought this stuff applied to Crysis2 only, I'm relieved that's not the case.
I wonder if they're ever going to attempt to render thoughts of the characters, even when they're not thought or there's no need for it... Just a thought😛

 

[Keysplayr]

AFAIR Crysis also had this "feature"...the ocean covered the entire maps, even if most of it were below the ground and never visually rendered.

So the original Crysis, if it had tesselation implemented, would probably show this invisible ocean mesh as well? So it is a design of the engine not really ever noticed UNTIL tesselation was implemented? Anyone doubt this?

 

[3DVagabond]

So the original Crysis, if it had tesselation implemented, would probably show this invisible ocean mesh as well? So it is a design of the engine not really ever noticed UNTIL tesselation was implemented? Anyone doubt this?

A model, which is what the ocean is, is not part of the engine. It is loaded and unloaded into the scene at will.

 

[Jacky60]

There is certainly reason to think tesselation of an unseen ocean under the map is a waste of resources. How you can disagree with that I simply don't know.

The reason Keysplayer can disagree that tessellating an entire invisible ocean is a waste of resources is abundantly obvious from his signature. He is understandably incapable of being neutral or objective because he is a member of Nvidia focus group. Its his 'job' to support Nvidia and argue in favour of such indefensible actions. Its the same reason that arms manufacturers and oil companies are in favour of invading small oil rich countries.
To be honest if I was given free graphics cards from one manufacturer I'd probably argue that black is white just as he and the rest of the Nvidians are doing.


Firstly, your statement is, on the face of it, false.

I am a card-carrying member of Sam's Club...this does not make me an unthinking brain-dead extension of Walmart's marketing division, nor does it make it my "job" to represent them (Walmart/Sam's Club) in any capacity in any venue. It also does not make me a "pro-Sam's Club fanboy" by being a member of Sam's Club.

Secondly, your post is a character attack and member callout, entirely unacceptable. That you cannot deftly defend your technical position in this thread without resorting to attacking the character of the messenger simply looks poorly for you.

Idontcare
Super Mod

 

[Keysplayr]

The reason Keysplayer can disagree that tessellating an entire invisible ocean is a waste of resources is abundantly obvious from his signature. He is understandably incapable of being neutral or objective because he is a member of Nvidia focus group. Its his 'job' to support Nvidia and argue in favour of such indefensible actions. Its the same reason that arms manufacturers and oil companies are in favour of invading small oil rich countries.
To be honest if I was given free graphics cards from one manufacturer I'd probably argue that black is white just as he and the rest of the Nvidians are doing.

Check out post 217 Jacky. It's always good to read the whole thread before posting. I'll be waiting for your apology.

EDIT: Jacky?

 

[SirPauly]

So tell me from a common sense point of view...Is there a technical reason to tesselate an unseen ocean?

http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31992217&postcount=93

 

[SirPauly]

To be honest if I was given free graphics cards from one manufacturer I'd probably argue that black is white just as he and the rest of the Nvidians are doing.

I am not a focus member, don't receive free hardware and been posting for over a decade in a few forums with the same alias and believe most of this is conjecture, conspiracy and rumor mongering.

The link above I offered may offer the reasoning on water.

Edit: When I gamed on ATI hardware in my main gaming rigs for many years, I personally engaged in debate the Focus Members and had wonderful debates without the side mentality.

 

[Silverforce11]

Yes, it "seems" like it could be, but really only to AMD users. Nvidia users don't mind so much because their cards can usually handle that level of tesselation.

Not sure how you define handle, but due to gross usage of tessellation, even NV cards tank in performance. http://www.xbitlabs.com/articles/graphics/display/crysis-2-directx11_3.html#sect1

I dunno how you think ~42 fps at 1080p with a top gpu like a gtx580 is "handling" it, when performance tanks to a slideshow in some scenes (prolly intensive fighting above the nonexistant ocean). Quote: "The superiority of the GeForce GTX 590 may be due not only to its more advanced tessellation unit but also to the close partnership between EA and Nvidia."

Also, note the 6990 gets 55 fps, the 590 gets 70, yet both have the same min. Not a very good job on NV trying to optimize against the competitor.

Now, if they had not included all the non required tessellation, it would be faster for AMD, but also faster for NV, and perhaps NV owners of the gtx580 can even get ~60fps at 1080p. Is that too much to ask?