Crysis 2 Tessellation Article

[Keysplayr]

Sounds like character assassination to me. reported as such.

And you felt the need to tell me you reported me because................

At any rate Madcat, I don't see how asking somebody to "get to the point already" is in any way an attempt on assassinating ones character.

You aren't going to win this debate in this fashion. Simply not happening.

 

[Seero]

Seero, is English your first language?

Why do you suddenly have interest in my childhood? I asked "what do you want from me?" and you are like "Seero, is English your first language?" Really? What is my mother tongue has to do with this thread? or you?

You seem to have once again not understood a thing I said.

In that case, can anyone else understand 3DVagabond? If so, explain what s/he wants in English please?

 

[Seero]

These are just causes of why the Tessellation was used ineffectively. We can discuss the reasons all day long here. So far I have yet to see a game where Tessellation really makes the game any more realistic...

From Mr. President, http://forums.anandtech.com/showpost.php?p=31992121&postcount=89
Look at the wall which the toon is facing and focus on the edge. This is exactly the stairs effect from unigine, where Dx11 look realistic, and Dx10 looks flat. The difference can be seen using 64x as the tessellation cap, meaning that it requires more than 64x to make it looks like the way it was intended.

 

[sontin]

In some cases like Deus Ex where Tessellation makes the character models more rounded and more realistic, I can see the use for it. In other cases like Crysis 2, Tessellation is thrown with marginal benefits, but the performance penalty is huge, despite making some objects even less realistic!

Maybe someone should play the game with Tessellation...

Here a few picks with and without Tessellation:

 

[SirPauly]

Data and investigations are so much better than just wild conjecture.

 

[Keysplayr]

Data and investigations are so much better than just wild conjecture.

Always.

 

[Madcatatlas]

And you felt the need to tell me you reported me because................

At any rate Madcat, I don't see how asking somebody to "get to the point already" is in any way an attempt on assassinating ones character.

You aren't going to win this debate in this fashion. Simply not happening.

Most of us dont have time to go at length looking for the "why"s of technicalities when it comes to software and hardware like this.

Most of us have the logical sense and ability to deduce that something is wrong when hardware X performs worse become Software Y makes an invisible ocean of tessellation, or even worse, when Y adds millions of detail points to a brick with no, to almost no discernible difference to the eye.

That same ability of deduction and that same logical sense, puts Nvidia in the center of foul play AGAIN and Again. Its laughable at best, very annoying and damaging at worst.

But hey, i guess what you are trying to say, is that you are happy that your 580 performs like a 460. I wouldnt be, thats why im voicing my opinion.

This isnt about Crysis 2, this is about doing stuff the way it should be done. Not screwing your own hardware just to screw your competitor harder.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Most of us dont have time to go at length looking for the "why"s of technicalities when it comes to software and hardware like this.

Most of us have the logical sense and ability to deduce that something is wrong when hardware X performs worse become Software Y makes an invisible ocean of tessellation, or even worse, when Y adds millions of detail points to a brick with no, to almost no discernible difference to the eye.

That same ability of deduction and that same logical sense, puts Nvidia in the center of foul play AGAIN and Again. Its laughable at best, very annoying and damaging at worst.

But hey, i guess what you are trying to say, is that you are happy that your 580 performs like a 460. I wouldnt be, thats why im voicing my opinion.

This isnt about Crysis 2, this is about doing stuff the way it should be done. Not screwing your own hardware just to screw your competitor harder.

I have a hard time beliving you.
Seero's post debunked the "wasted computional power" argument...but you still use it.
And instead of comming with tehcnicals reasosn to why Seero's posts was flawed you focus on offtopic "static"?

Wake me up when AMD claims any foul doing.

Untill then this thread is par on par with a "Truther 9/11"-thread.

 

[Madcatatlas]

Why dont you go ahead and be the smart one?, decypher that mess of a post seero did so the rest of us can stop wandering which translator we should use.

 

[Keysplayr]

Why dont you go ahead and be the smart one?, decypher that mess of a post seero did so the rest of us can stop wandering which translator we should use.

Not much left to "decipher". You believe what you want to believe, and "the rest of us" (and by the rest of us, I mean all who oppose your one sided view) will operate outside of the realm of conspiracy theory.

Oh, and he is being the smart one. You, are the mudslinger, apparently.

Example: "That same ability of deduction and that same logical sense, puts Nvidia in the center of foul play AGAIN and Again. Its laughable at best, very annoying and damaging at worst."

What an utterly ridiculous statement. Rubbish.

 

[Madcatatlas]

Not much left to "decipher". You believe what you want to believe, and "the rest of us" (and by the rest of us, I mean all who oppose your one sided view) will operate outside of the realm of conspiracy theory.

Oh, and he is being the smart one. You, are the mudslinger, apparently.

Example: "That same ability of deduction and that same logical sense, puts Nvidia in the center of foul play AGAIN and Again. Its laughable at best, very annoying and damaging at worst."

What an utterly ridiculous statement. Rubbish.

Personal mudslinging eh? take it to the PMs keys, dont pollute the topic. I use positives, not negatives in the post you quoted.

 

[Keysplayr]

Personal mudslinging eh? take it to the PMs keys, dont pollute the topic. I use positives, not negatives in the post you quoted.

OMFG whatever man.

 

[SirPauly]

Most of us dont have time to go at length looking for the "why"s of technicalities when it comes to software and hardware like this.

That's obvious. Instead, some make up their minds quickly and then point blame!

 

[Lonbjerg]

That's obvious. Instead, some make up their minds quickly and then point blame!

And it is really sad to observe.

"I don't know anything indepth about the topic, I won't won't read technical explanations about the topic...and your are WRONG!!!"

And for the umpth' time, the silence of AMD is speaking volumes.

It is almost like the know the issues is not malicous code...but a hardware/driver thing (most likely their fixed tessellation engine opposed to NVIDIA's shader based tessellation engine.)

So to sum up:

- There has been offered technical posts/links explaining why the ocean is tessellated, even when hidden out of sight.
- There has been posted technical posts/links explaning why this dosn't require the performance to tank due to reuse of calculations/results.
- There has been offered technical posts/links explaining the I.Q degradation by lowering the tessellation factor in AMD drivers.

So infact the article in the OP has been "debunked" and a lot of posts have brought light on the confusion.

But still some people posts like nothing of this sort ever happend.

This thread is dead, untill any REAL evidence confirms the tinfoilhat people *chough*

 

[3DVagabond]

It would help if you just came out and say point blank what you mean. Instead of asking question after question trying to get others to admit something, even accidentally, why don't you just come out and say what you want everyone to know? It may help your position on things, or utterly destroy it. I dunno.

I am saying exactly what I mean. He came out with all of these reasons and I wanted to know if he actually understands the technical side of the subject or if it's just that's what it seems to be to him.

I'm not trying to get anyone to admit anything. Are you accusing me of being a troll?

 

[3DVagabond]

And you felt the need to tell me you reported me because................

At any rate Madcat, I don't see how asking somebody to "get to the point already" is in any way an attempt on assassinating ones character.

You aren't going to win this debate in this fashion. Simply not happening.

See, there in lies the problem. I'm not trying to win anything. This is not a competition. Anyone who thinks there's something to win here is delusional.

You did not ask me to get to the point. You accused me of trying to get somebody to say something. When in reality, you are the one trying to get me to say something. Pretty ironic, isn't it?

I have gotten to the point over and over. Some people refuse to acknowledge the point. This game is full of useless tessellation that serves no possible purpose other than to fulfill the Dx11/tessellation bullet point and make nVidia cards look better in benchmarks.

 

[3DVagabond]

Why do you suddenly have interest in my childhood? I asked "what do you want from me?" and you are like "Seero, is English your first language?" Really? What is my mother tongue has to do with this thread? or you?

See, here's the problem again. I did not ask you anything about your childhood or what your mother tongue is. You are having a hard time understanding me. The post above makes that obvious. I was wondering if it's being caused by a language barrier. Since you asked for an explanation in English, I'll assume that language is not the problem, it's something else.

 

[Seero]

See, here's the problem again. I did not ask you anything about your childhood or what your mother tongue is. You are having a hard time understanding me. The post above makes that obvious. I was wondering if it's being caused by a language barrier. Since you asked for an explanation in English, I'll assume that language is not the problem, it's something else.

Ahhh... you did ask what my mother tongue is. In native English, mother tongue refers to the native language one speaks/understands at birth, which has absolutely nothing to do with my mother's tongue. "First language" is not the correct terms in that context, but I didn't correct you as I am not your English teacher.

As the the obvious part, it is obvious that you are trolling this thread. Please, learn English first before you try to criticize others.

So is it, or is it not a language problem? Is there, or is there not a relation between my mother tongue being English and the problem? You said I have difficulty understand you, but it is clear that you are the one who difficulty reading a sentence in English. I said "anyone else", meaning any other people, not you. I am very sorry if that appears to be confusing to you. I can't help with your English reading skill. If you are the only one who understands yourself, than you may want to seek help in terms of expressing yourself.

 

[Lonbjerg]

See, there in lies the problem. I'm not trying to win anything. This is not a competition. Anyone who thinks there's something to win here is delusional.

You did not ask me to get to the point. You accused me of trying to get somebody to say something. When in reality, you are the one trying to get me to say something. Pretty ironic, isn't it?

I have gotten to the point over and over. Some people refuse to acknowledge the point. This game is full of useless tessellation that serves no possible purpose other than to fulfill the Dx11/tessellation bullet point and make nVidia cards look better in benchmarks.

Would you stop lying please.

 

[3DVagabond]

Ahhh... you did ask what my mother tongue is. In native English, mother tongue refers to the native language one speak/understand from birth. "First language" is not the correct terms in that context, but I didn't correct you as I am not your English teacher.

As the the obvious part, it is obvious that you are trolling this thread. Please, learn English first before you try to criticize others.

So is, or is not a language problem? Is there, or is there not a relation between my mother tongue being English and the problem? You said I have difficulty understand you, but it is clear that you are the one who difficulty reading a sentence in English. I said "anyone else", meaning any other people, not you. I am very sorry if that appears to be confusing to you. I can't help with your English reading skill. If you are the only one who understands yourself, than you may want to seek help in terms of expressing yourself.

I'm trolling? Whatever, mate. I can't compensate for what you think. Trust me though, I'm not confused here.

Since you offered no qualifications for the post I originally asked about, and have instead drug it off topic and called me a troll, you apparently have none. In a very roundabout way, you have managed to answer my question.

 

[Seero]

I'm trolling? Whatever, mate. I can't compensate for what you think. Trust me though, I'm not confused here.

You do not seem to know what you are asking for to begin with, and can't understand the answer given. You asked:

Got any science to back all of this up? Or, are you just saying it's like this because it's the best explanation you can think of?

If you read what you quoted, I said it does not make sense. That post is more like a question than an explanation, and I too want to know why.

Second question:

Do you actually have any knowledge of these operations?

Yes I do, the first sentense of post 433. You either did not read, or did not understand that sentence.

Third question:

Seero, is English your first language? You seem to have once again not understood a thing I said.

This was replied clearly on post 552, but then you said:

... I did not ask you anything about your childhood or what your mother tongue is.

So what exactly do you want to know? You mentioned that:

...I was wondering if it's being caused by a language barrier.

As if I am having trouble understanding you and it has something to do with whether or not English is my mother tongue. Interestingly, you said:

I'll assume that language is not the problem, it's something else.

Well, you are right, but you go on with saying that:

...you offered no qualifications for the post I originally asked about.

Which goes back to the beginning of this post...

 

[Seero]

double post

 

[3DVagabond]

Yes I do, the first sentense of post 433. You either did not read, or did not understand that sentence.

I am not blind, but I do know a bit about graphics.

Pretty ambiguous.


I never asked where you are from. I don't care, honestly. My question could be answered simply yes, or no. I wasn't trying to put you on the defensive. I just couldn't understand why we couldn't communicate. It's OK though, it doesn't matter.

 

[T_Yamamoto]

Pretty ambiguous.


I never asked where you are from. I don't care, honestly. My question could be answered simply yes, or no. I wasn't trying to put you on the defensive. I just couldn't understand why we couldn't communicate. It's OK though, it doesn't matter.

such a troll 😛

 

[BFG10K]

If it is okay for you, you can swich tesselation on and off while you play. If you have quick fingers, the average FPS will increase by switching it manually.

You appear to be typing nonsensical statements that do nothing but pad your posts.

To answer the second part of your question, there are no buildings behind the ocean, so there are no wireframe of buildings.

And there’s no ocean behind the ground. Or at least there shouldn’t be. That’s the point. Yet they’re culling the buildings but not the ocean.

If they do however, it really doesn't resolve the original problem we started with, why tesselate things user won't see? Well, that really isn't a problem as we don't see what goes through RAM, CPU and GPU anyways.

It is a problem because a mesh is being generated with a workload that’s never seen

The question is, is there another way that produces the same scene without unnecessary tesselation, and the answer is yes, do not tessellate dynamically. This is not the what you are going after. What you are really going after is, will applying tessellation only on the parts that are visible through the viewport faster than applying tessellation everything?

Actually it goes further than that. Those ocean polygons should never be generated regardless of whether they’re tessellated or not.

The time to figure out which polygon is visible to user, figure out which model this polygon belongs to, find adjustment polygon from this model, tessellate, reattach to the original non-tessellated model for each model that is within the scene, for each and every single frame, does not sound faster to me although the wired frame may look better.

This equally applies to any other object that’s being tessellated, yet we don’t see invisible instances of those.

Again, the map data at those points should not reference any ocean data. The engine should be instructed to not draw anything related to the ocean when it’s rendering those portions of the map.

If I draw a puddle on the ground should I expect an entire map to render invisible water data? Of course not, because the rest of the map doesn’t have water.

Are you familiar with something basic like, say, BSP rendering? Even Doom back in 1993 was capable of not rendering things that weren’t visible.