Crushed Motherboard?

[Buddy]

Installed a Hyper 212 on an asus z68V Pro, did everything as directed, then after looking at the socket side I noticed some of the boards layer around the standoff bolts.

Not sure how deep they are, or how much of the layer/tracks might be crushed!

It boots into bios fine, haven't hooked the HDD up yet. Temps are OK, 25deg idle ( bios ) .

Bit cheesed off at CM, it says tighten bolts on the back plate, and I tightened it with hand screwdriver, to the point where it wouldn't turn no more.
They really should have a warning about this, normal hand driver tightening shouldn't do that.
At the very least include thin rubber washers for the bolts.


Nevertheless, it boots. So, what signs should I look for if it caused damage to the tracks?

Would the board even run if they are crushed?

some pics:

 

[janas19]

That doesn't appear to be crushed circuit board. PCB would not expand up like that from what you described. It looks like it's a residue or epoxy of some sort.

Was there any thread bonding or silicone grease included in the packet or inside the standoffs?

 

[Rvenger]

Thats the adhesive coolermaster puts on their standoffs. Its to help it from spinning freely when you are mounting down the Heatsink. Mine has all kinds of lint from my floor on it because I reinstalled so many times.

 

[paperwastage]

its the adhesive thats on the 212+ mounting pins... scared me too, when I was swapping mobos

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2185940

 

[Buddy]

you guys sure? BTW, its an evo, forgot to mention, if that makes a difference.

I looked at the standoff bolts before putting them on, there was nothing on the bottom, just bare metal.

And if there was some sort of clear layer of adhesive on the bolts that isn't noticeable, would that much spurt out the sides? It looks like the bolts have gone into the board.

I hope you are right though.

Paperwastage, was that much of the stuff raised around the bolts, before you removed the cooler, like in the pics?

 

[paperwastage]

I dont remember/didn't notice the first time, but after re-installing on the replacement mobo, it was a little noticeable... probably not as much as yours...

I looked at the standoff bolt before reinstalling... it seemed like plain metal (something like black washers at the bottom), but it was adhesive like if you scratch it

 

[bankster55]

I dont know what the heck you guys are talking about.
There is no stickum paste on the 4 standoffs, at least recently.
The 4 standoffs have an embedded black nylon washer into the hex body where it touches mobo topside.
The black nylon washer sticks up .012 out of the standoff so the steel hex doesnt grind into the mobo coating when tightened.

Things I have learned about the CM 212+ (EVO) over time........................
Never use a screwdriver on nut wrench, or the socket itself on the 4 nuts.
Finger tight is plenty - it aint going nowhere once the top bracket is attatched. Finger tight prevents rotation.
The threaded post on the standoffs have a flat on them - it only goes in backplate opening one way
The standoff threaded post flat stops .062 from nylon embedded washer - the exact thickness of ASUS 6 layer mobo.
Tightening too much with a screwdriver, with or without an open ended (9mm) wrench on hex on standoff can pinch the mobo, override the .062 stop notch by rotating threaded post in backplate (spreading the opening), or compress nylon washer to the point the edges of the steel hex grind the mobo coating.

I have seen peeps not putting standoff all the way in by orienting incorrectly and FORCING IT IN!

Further more, the backplate is exactly .250 tall and doesnt even touch the steel intel socket braceplate.
So why did they put the insulating green tape on backside at all?
Meaning if you are using .250 high brass case standoffs (not correct 5/16") you are in trouble.
I also personally would not trust that tape to stop arcing to solder blobs underneath it on 4 wings.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8l2h0nYGAdk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAXqEftJ0Q4&feature=related

 

[Buddy]

I dont remember/didn't notice the first time, but after re-installing on the replacement mobo, it was a little noticeable... probably not as much as yours... I looked at the standoff bolt before reinstalling... it seemed like plain metal (something like black washers at the bottom), but it was adhesive like if you scratch it

TBH, I'm confused now...

standoffs have an embedded black nylon washer into the hex body where it touches mobo topside.

I really don't remember seeing those. It also came with 4 LGA 2011 standoff bolts, which definitely don't have black washers ( maybe because the 2011 socket doesn't need it )

So maybe they stuck in my mind last, and I'm thinking the other 4 didn't have any either......not so sure now.

Never use a screwdriver on nut wrench, or the socket itself on the 4 nuts. Finger tight is plenty - it aint going nowhere once the top bracket is attatched. Finger tight prevents rotation.

well I really wish CM would put those in the instructions, instead of saying to tighten bolts, and provide a Nut Setter to use with a screw driver........no review or video mentions finger tightening either....

The threaded post on the standoffs have a flat on them - it only goes in backplate opening one way

Yes, can't miss that, it's very obvious

I have seen peeps not putting standoff all the way in by orienting incorrectly and FORCING IT IN!

Really!? like I said, it's very hard to make that mistake...

Further more, the backplate is exactly .250 tall and doesnt even touch the steel intel socket braceplate. So why did they put the insulating green tape on backside at all?

because it's also for an AMD socket, which goes on the opposite way, so I assume the backing is needed?

Meaning if you are using .250 high brass case standoffs (not correct 5/16") you are in trouble.

Not sure what you mean there, but in any case, my motherboard tray has a large cutout, so I can install while in the case.....if that's what you're referring to.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LAXqE...eature=related

needs to turn the light on, very annoying




So anyway, I'm not comfortable with this, so I'm going to pull it out.

Now if it has gone through the mobo, well I don't think I cant re-fit any cooler, mounting holes would be too fragile to tighten.

If it hasn't damaged the mobo, and it really is just the nylon or whatever that's in the pics ( I hope so! ), then what kind of washer will I need before I re-fit.
Like is there an exact thickness/diameter of rubber washer that I can easily find in hardware store?
Also all the numbers in your post, are they inches ( one is, not sure about the rest )???

 

[Buddy]

Thats the adhesive coolermaster puts on their standoffs

It looks like it's a residue or epoxy of some sort

its the adhesive thats on the 212+ mounting pins... scared me too, when I was swapping mobos

The 4 standoffs have an embedded black nylon washer

Well you are both right, it is a black washer of sort, but also that stuff spurting out is sticky adhesive......THANK GOODNESS for that

Now, maybe it was intuition or something to worry, because taking it off, lets me fix some other things.

Firstly, those nuts on the back, even though I hand tightened them with screwdriver/nut setter, they cam off waayyyy to easy, like one of them didn't even require force, it just spun off...... what caused this, is it becasue once you take of the cooler and retention clip, the standoff bolts and bottom nuts automatically loosen?

there was a smidgen too much paste, it covered nicely but I think the pea was a teeny weeny bit too big.

So, now, do I just use the standoff bolts again, even though all the adhesive is squished out? or should I put rubber washers?

 

[Joepublic2]

Yeah man if you really damaged just one of those traces your machine would fail to POST. They're all zig zagged like that because the signaling tolerances on them are so tight that the length of the conductors needs to be within a fraction of a mm to maintain a coherent signal from one end of the bus to the other end (and to deal with RF/interference issues). Which is even more impressive when you realize that an electric charge propagates down a copper conductor at room temperature at a significant fraction of the speed of light.

 

[bankster55]

I have never seen white stuff around the standoffs in 30-40 installs over the years, so, just for giggles, I pulled out the black nylon washer in one of the standoffs (with a removed 212+) using my knife. And there was indeed a tiny amount of white stickum stuff underneath. It appears they glue in the nylon washers underneath - presumably so they dont get lost/stuck to mobo when removed.

I had never known this because I never tighten the nuts excessively.And the fact one of your nuts was dead loose when removed means it was not in correctly at first, or it heated up somehow (an arcing trace?) when you tested and allowed the nylon to compress, causing looseness. How all that sticky stuff gets out is a mystery to me, also would need heat or extreme tightening but anyways you need to determine if your "crud" is the mobo sealant or the sticky stuff. I do know if the nylon washer gets compressed to the point that the steel part of the standoff touches the traces and is rotating, arcing or shorting is possible later.

Fwiw, I dont use this thing, I use Venemous with my own mount backplate, only for others who want an el cheapo HSF.

And yes, the 2011 X-79 Xsocket no longer uses a backplate (except R4E), the mounts screw right into the socket itself from top and eliminates all this nonsense.

Lastly, the fact you have a giant HS window in your case that goes nowhere near the sheet metal backplate protects you from possible grounding/arcing. And like I said, the correct brass case standoffs are 5/16" long for the I/O plate orientation, and you cant use 1/4" long SO that you have laying around.

Having said all that everything is prob still fine, and if your mobo go bye bye, at least you will know what happened - lol

 

[Rvenger]

Well you are both right, it is a black washer of sort, but also that stuff spurting out is sticky adhesive......THANK GOODNESS for that

Now, maybe it was intuition or something to worry, because taking it off, lets me fix some other things.

Firstly, those nuts on the back, even though I hand tightened them with screwdriver/nut setter, they cam off waayyyy to easy, like one of them didn't even require force, it just spun off...... what caused this, is it becasue once you take of the cooler and retention clip, the standoff bolts and bottom nuts automatically loosen?

there was a smidgen too much paste, it covered nicely but I think the pea was a teeny weeny bit too big.

So, now, do I just use the standoff bolts again, even though all the adhesive is squished out? or should I put rubber washers?

Yes, you can reuse as many times as you like, it will just get harder to mount each time you remove the standoffs when you are installing the backplate. The adhesive helps keep the standoffs in place when installing the backplate and also helps in tightening down the Heatsink.

 

[Buddy]

I have never seen white stuff around the standoffs in 30-40 installs over the years

because you hand tighten only?

And the fact one of your nuts was dead loose when removed means it was not in correctly at first, or it heated up somehow (an arcing trace?) when you tested and allowed the nylon to compress, causing looseness

well it definitely didnt heat up or arc, and I'm really not sure how it could not be in correctly. All I did was tighten with a screw driver. If, like you said, tightening may pull and twist the flat side stopper of the standoff bolt thread through the back plate guide, well I dont know what can be done about that other than tighten with fingers until it stops, because a screw driver definitely tightens the nuts A LOT more than hand tightening ( and using screwdriver/Nut setter is what CM recommend you to do in the instructions )

But could it not be that once everything is removed ( HSF/retention bracket ), that the nuts on the back just loosen automatically?

How all that sticky stuff gets out is a mystery to me, also would need heat or extreme tightening but anyways you need to determine if your "crud" is the mobo sealant or the sticky stuff. I do know if the nylon washer gets compressed to the point that the steel part of the standoff touches the traces and is rotating, arcing or shorting is possible later.

The sticky stuff gets out by tightening with screw driver and Nut setter Although I'm amazed I've never seen it in any pictures or videos of installation, or mentioned in any review.....

And the adhesive is definitely from the Bolts, look at the last Pic above, 100% clean like new, all four mounting holes are like that

the fact you have a giant HS window in your case that goes nowhere near the sheet metal back-plate protects you from possible grounding/arcing. And like I said, the correct brass case standoffs are 5/16" long for the I/O plate orientation, and you cant use 1/4" long SO that you have laying around.

Well I thought most recent ( and oldish ) cases had a cutout for cooler installation.....

Anyway, not too sure what motherboard standoffs have to do with cooler installation problems, as most likely, people just use the standoffs that come with their case.

Also the cooler back-plate backing is insulated, and is also the side used for AMD installs.

Having said all that everything is prob still fine, and if your mobo go bye bye, at least you will know what happened - lol

It has to be fine there is no marks on the mobo mounting holes in the pic, so I'm thankful for that, otherwise this would have been a nightmare.

A cheap cooler ruining a mobo and cpu 8 times the price is called a disaster

Yes, you can reuse as many times as you like, it will just get harder to mount each time you remove the standoffs when you are installing the backplate. The adhesive helps keep the standoffs in place when installing the backplate and also helps in tightening down the Heatsink.

How does the adhesive help keep the standoff in place?
How could it help if it stays under the black washer? So is it supposed to squish out like that?

If not, how does it get harder, I mean its not really a hard thing to install, its just tightening up some nuts and bolts until they stop turning

The only thing that's hard about this whole process is knowing how tight is tight enough....other than that, its too easy!

 

[bankster55]

I just put one standoff in a mobo hole and wrenched it down and a tiny tiny bit oozed out
Once you get your system all together and running I would be curious if the standoffs are warm to touch

 

[Buddy]

Once you get your system all together and running I would be curious if the standoffs are warm to touch

Why would you be curious if they are warm to the touch?
I wanna know what you're thinking

The only thing that would make them warm, is the fact they're connected to the heat sink via the spring screws/retention bracket, but I doubt that would warm them up....

Oh BTW, the adhesive squished out like that, was before I ever turned the PC on, if that's what you're alluding too, so it's definitely 100% from tightening only........and I mean, come on, I'm no Arnie

 

[janas19]

I have never seen white stuff around the standoffs in 30-40 installs over the years, so, just for giggles, I pulled out the black nylon washer in one of the standoffs (with a removed 212+) using my knife. And there was indeed a tiny amount of white stickum stuff underneath. It appears they glue in the nylon washers underneath - presumably so they dont get lost/stuck to mobo when removed.

I had never known this because I never tighten the nuts excessively.And the fact one of your nuts was dead loose when removed means it was not in correctly at first, or it heated up somehow (an arcing trace?) when you tested and allowed the nylon to compress, causing looseness. How all that sticky stuff gets out is a mystery to me, also would need heat or extreme tightening but anyways you need to determine if your "crud" is the mobo sealant or the sticky stuff. I do know if the nylon washer gets compressed to the point that the steel part of the standoff touches the traces and is rotating, arcing or shorting is possible later.

Fwiw, I dont use this thing, I use Venemous with my own mount backplate, only for others who want an el cheapo HSF.

And yes, the 2011 X-79 Xsocket no longer uses a backplate (except R4E), the mounts screw right into the socket itself from top and eliminates all this nonsense.

Lastly, the fact you have a giant HS window in your case that goes nowhere near the sheet metal backplate protects you from possible grounding/arcing. And like I said, the correct brass case standoffs are 5/16" long for the I/O plate orientation, and you cant use 1/4" long SO that you have laying around.

Having said all that everything is prob still fine, and if your mobo go bye bye, at least you will know what happened - lol

[redacted]

This is NOT how we address fellow posters in the technical forums. Personal attacks and callouts will not be tolerated.
-ViRGE

 

[paperwastage]

Well you are both right, it is a black washer of sort, but also that stuff spurting out is sticky adhesive......THANK GOODNESS for that

yeah, I guess I didn't explain it carefully enough... its the black washer that has some sticky residue on it... the residue is for the standoff to stay when mounting the

I think the last time I mounted, one of the sides wasn't sticking enough, so when I try to tighten it, both the standoff and screw(from the mounting assembly) will move (and not actually tighten)... had to use hold the thumbscrew at the back while tightening to get it right

 

[Rvenger]

How does the adhesive help keep the standoff in place?
How could it help if it stays under the black washer? So is it supposed to squish out like that?

If not, how does it get harder, I mean its not really a hard thing to install, its just tightening up some nuts and bolts until they stop turning

The only thing that's hard about this whole process is knowing how tight is tight enough....other than that, its too easy!

When I installed my standoffs first I flipped the motherboard upside down and the standoffs stayed in place.

 

[Buddy]

its the black washer that has some sticky residue on it... the residue is for the standoff to stay when mounting

well if I'm understanding you correctly, and also in SLK's post, you are saying the adhesive is to stop the standoff bolt from spinning once it is tightened with the back-plate nuts?


That's what I'm finding hard to understand.
Because the sticky adhesive is squished out from under the black washer, that is, between the bolt surface and black washer.


The top/surface of the black washer is completely smooth and has absolutely no residue or adhesive on it, it is definitely under it.

So how does it have anything to do with touching the mobo and stopping the standoff from spinning?



Unless of course, I tightened it exactly as CM intended it to be tightened, and the adhesive is supposed to squish out like that, as it also squishes out from the middle also ( between the washer hole and standoff bolt thread ), and the more the better, so that it sticks to the board....

oh well, I'm starting to think that's the case, and people just aren't tightening it enough

 

[Rvenger]

Really, I think we are all guessing at this point but looking at those pics I bet that adhesive is just excess adhesive for the paper washer to stick to the standoffs. The paper washer prevents the standoff from chewing into the traces when tightening down. The excess adhesive is just a bonus that it helps the standoff to stay in place.

 

[paperwastage]

well if I'm understanding you correctly, and also in SLK's post, you are saying the adhesive is to stop the standoff bolt from spinning once it is tightened with the back-plate nuts?


That's what I'm finding hard to understand.
Because the sticky adhesive is squished out from under the black washer, that is, between the bolt surface and black washer.


The top/surface of the black washer is completely smooth and has absolutely no residue or adhesive on it, it is definitely under it.

it could be the black washer OR the adhesive is used to stop it from spinning, but both/either didn't work properly for the second time

lemme go home at take a look at it. It has been a while since I installed it in august, so maybe I misinterpreted something