Crimson 16.9.1 reduces CPU overhead by quite a margin, several titles see boots in performance.

[bystander36]

Ive tested the new driver and i did not noticed ANY improvement on ANY of the game im playing right now... (W3, F4, SC(999% cpu limited)).

Call me when they fix the DX11 MT that right now is just broken, depending on 1 core is MUCH, MUCH worse than some minimal overhead removal.

Some people need to accept the fact that games are not, and probably not be drawcall limited for some time, otherwise we should be seeing MASSIVE fps gains by moving to DX12 whiout having to use stuff like Async Compute, that is not avalible to DX11 anyway.




You have no idea of what you are talking about, DX12 is SLOWER on Unity3d and Unreal... its easy to activate it, but performance is plain CRAP.

if you are not conviced, 2 months ago i compiled a Unity demo, and enabled DX12 on it so people could tell me if anyone gained by going to DX12, the result was just a big fact 0, just massive negative gains.
Feel free to try it yourselft.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/z0jn3p2gnubcv6c/DX12Test.rar?dl=0

Most games originally designed around DX11, with a DX12 path will not see big gains, because they designed to limit draw calls. But as games are designed for DX12 with no DX11 path, will most likely use a lot more draw calls than DX11 would have allowed. Dev's are smart enough to create their games to work within the confinements of the hardware and API they have to work with.

What does that mean to you? It means as DX12 is adopted, the dev's will be able to add more effects to games that currently require tricks or cannot be done.

 

[TheELF]

Dev's are smart enough to create their games to work within the confinements of the hardware and API they have to work with.

Yes and since that's the consoles we'll see no change whatsoever, consoles can use low level since forever.
Ashes was made especially for PC and high draw call and Dx11 is still better...

 

[Carfax83]

Ashes was made especially for PC and high draw call and Dx11 is still better...

When was the last time you saw an AotS benchmark? The recent ones show significant performance improvements from using DX12 for both NVidia and AMD..

 

[HurleyBird]

Most games originally designed around DX11, with a DX12 path will not see big gains, because they designed to limit draw calls. But as games are designed for DX12 with no DX11 path, will most likely use a lot more draw calls than DX11 would have allowed. Dev's are smart enough to create their games to work within the confinements of the hardware and API they have to work with.

Speaking as an indie dev, it's always better to have fewer draw calls. And while you could probably construct a quick benchmark with a metric ton of draw calls that would actually perform better in Unity or Unreal's DX12 renderers, that isn't a very compelling example. You seem to be conflating draw calls with game complexity or visuals, but the truth is that the correlation isn't necessarily that high, and there are almost always ways to optimise the number of draw calls in your game. If you're making a very specific game, like, say, the Star Swarm demo, then you might be draw call limited, but 99% of the time it's not a big worry.

On the other hand, reducing CPU overhead via better threading of the renderer is potentially a very big benefit.

Of course, the people who are saying "small devs will never be able to make use of DX12/Vulcan" are most likely going to end up with plenty of egg on their faces given enough time. Gameplay logic doesn't need to be close to the metal to extract gains from DX12, but the renderer does. It's not as if all of the Vulcan gains in id Tech 6 would magically go up in a puff of smoke if someone like me were to make a game using that engine. Epic and Unity Technologies just haven't gotten there yet, and Epic especially has far more than enough talent to do so, and they probably would have already (and would have a lot more AAA wins this gen) if they were like everyone else and focused on GCN instead of Nvidia's PC architectures.

 

[bystander36]

Speaking as an indie dev, it's always better to have fewer draw calls. And while you could probably construct a quick benchmark with a metric ton of draw calls that would actually perform better in Unity or Unreal's DX12 renderers, that isn't a very compelling example. You seem to be conflating draw calls with game complexity or visuals, but the truth is that the correlation isn't necessarily that high, and there are almost always ways to optimise the number of draw calls in your game. If you're making a very specific game, like, say, the Star Swarm demo, then you might be draw call limited, but 99% of the time it's not a big worry.

On the other hand, reducing CPU overhead via better threading of the renderer is potentially a very big benefit.

Of course, the people who are saying "small devs will never be able to make use of DX12/Vulcan" are most likely going to end up with plenty of egg on their faces given enough time. Gameplay logic doesn't need to be close to the metal to extract gains from DX12, but the renderer does. It's not as if all of the Vulcan gains in id Tech 6 would magically go up in a puff of smoke if someone like me were to make a game using that engine. Epic and Unity Technologies just haven't gotten there yet, and Epic especially has far more than enough talent to do so, and they probably would have already (and would have a lot more AAA wins this gen) if they were like everyone else and focused on GCN instead of Nvidia's PC architectures.

I don't doubt that many games, if not most at the start will not inflate draw calls, but let's be honest a second. The dev's always find a way to utilize any new tool they have if it's available. You might not see it now, but I bet in time you'll see a decent increase in draw calls to use some new special effects. I remember early on with the new consoles (I forget the name of the game), where some console game had a cool special effect with grass fields which moved in a life like manner, but had to be taken out of the PC version, because it was very draw call intensive to do that effect they way they did. You might also find that instead of spending a lot of man power to find tricks to shrink the draw calls down, dev's will just go the easy route and just allows DX12's advantage to deal with it.

I also don't expect a lot of this from Indie titles. It's typically the AAA titles that go all out in visuals.

 

[TheELF]

I don't doubt that dev's many games, if not most at the start will not inflate draw calls, but let's be honest a second. The dev's always find a way to utilize any new tool they have if it's available. You might not see it now, but I bet in time you'll see a decent increase in draw calls to use some new special effect. I remember early on (I forget the name of the game), where some console game had a cool special effect with grass fields which moved in a life like manner, but had to be taken out of the PC version, because it was very draw call intensive to do that effect they way they did. You might also find that instead of a lot spending a man power to find tricks to shrink the draw calls down, dev's will just go the easy route and just allows DX12's advantage to deal with it.

I also don't expect a lot of this from Indie titles. It's typically the AAA titles that go all out in visuals.

If you want to be honest for a second than look at the games of years past,some devs don't care about number of draw calls and if current systems can run the games or not and others do care,just look at fallout 4 as a recent example huge FPS drops left and right because some places had a huge amount of draw calls.

Nothing will change,some devs will keep on not caring and others will keep on caring,the benefit of Dx12 will be that we will have less frame drops in games like FO4.

 

[bystander36]

If you want to be honest for a second than look at the games of years past,some devs don't care about number of draw calls and if current systems can run the games or not and others do care,just look at fallout 4 as a recent example huge FPS drops left and right because some places had a huge amount of draw calls.

Nothing will change,some devs will keep on not caring and others will keep on caring,the benefit of Dx12 will be that we will have less frame drops in games like FO4.

So you don't think dev's will find new uses for the increase of draw call capabilities? I will agree that some will care, and some won't, but I really doubt that none will start to take advantage of the change. As soon as more VRAM is available to them, they always start using it. Same goes for increased performance. So goes for new abilities, like tessellation. I doubt that the increase in draw call capability will be ignored by all.

 

[dogen1]

I don't doubt that many games, if not most at the start will not inflate draw calls, but let's be honest a second. The dev's always find a way to utilize any new tool they have if it's available. You might not see it now, but I bet in time you'll see a decent increase in draw calls to use some new special effects. I remember early on with the new consoles (I forget the name of the game), where some console game had a cool special effect with grass fields which moved in a life like manner, but had to be taken out of the PC version, because it was very draw call intensive to do that effect they way they did. You might also find that instead of spending a lot of man power to find tricks to shrink the draw calls down, dev's will just go the easy route and just allows DX12's advantage to deal with it.

I also don't expect a lot of this from Indie titles. It's typically the AAA titles that go all out in visuals.

I think engines are going away from large amounts of draw calls and focusing on on gpu-driven engine designs.

Frostbite and anvil, for example, have already taken big steps in this direction.

edit - Here's a good post from a dev on this.
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/vulkan-is-a-gcn-low-level-construct.58257/page-3#post-1939539

 

[TheELF]

So you don't think dev's will find new uses for the increase of draw call capabilities?

What is the increase in draw calls for the consoles?
They already are using low level APIs from the beginning.
Games are being made for consoles.
Now if you think that devs will redesign every level of a game to give the PC version a higher detail setting then sure but somehow I doubt that that will happen,some devs don't even change the UI while porting,some don't even change the fact that games on consoles start running on the third core, forcing you to use a hack to start them up on dual cores.
You are talking about very fringe cases like crysis where devs went crazy and made a game that was a few years ahead of it's time,might happen again but certainly wont become the norm.

 

[bystander36]

I think engines are going away from large amounts of draw calls and focusing on on gpu-driven engine designs.

Frostbite and anvil, for example, have already taken big steps in this direction.

edit - Here's a good post from a dev on this.
https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/vulkan-is-a-gcn-low-level-construct.58257/page-3#post-1939539

Even he mentions that some game engines are moving to use much more draw calls, while others are moving away from it.

The point I was making is simple. If a game is designed to use DX11 as the base level, you have to limit your draw calls to what DX11 can handle, so we will not see much improvements from having a low overhead API. Once DX11 is dropped, and they are designing for DX12, they will design around what DX12 allows. This is when we DX12's advantages will be used. It may not be with all engines and games. Maybe not even most, but it is only at this point that they can use it.

 

[bystander36]

What is the increase in draw calls for the consoles?
They already are using low level APIs from the beginning.
Games are being made for consoles.
Now if you think that devs will redesign every level of a game to give the PC version a higher detail setting then sure but somehow I doubt that that will happen,some devs don't even change the UI while porting,some don't even change the fact that games on consoles start running on the third core, forcing you to use a hack to start them up on dual cores.
You are talking about very fringe cases like crysis where devs went crazy and made a game that was a few years ahead of it's time,might happen again but certainly wont become the norm.

Sadly, I did not save a very important link a while back, so I don't know the game, but there has already been at least 1 case, where the PC version lacked effects the consoles had, specifically because PC's couldn't handle the draw calls needed.

And let's not forget that consoles often limit the view distance a lot, which cuts down the draw calls already. I won't say that most games will see a big increase in draw calls once they can focus solely on DX12, but it can't happen until then, and you can expect that dev's will find a use for it. They always do when it comes to new resources.

 

[dogen1]

Even he mentions that some game engines are moving to use much more draw calls, while others are moving away from it.

Sure there are some(probably more because they can, not because it's optimal), but I think you might have missed his emphasis on the GPU being better at those types of tasks.

GPU is better in big data operations such as preparing the scene to being rendered (matrix setup, culling, draw list generation, etc). I firmly believe that most AAA engines will eventually move these (highly parallel) tasks to the GPU.

I don't think using mass draw calls is a very future proof design, especially with GPU performance increasing far faster than CPUs.

 

[bystander36]

Sure there are some(probably more because they can, not because it's optimal), but I think you might have missed his emphasis on the GPU being better at those types of tasks.



I don't think using mass draw calls is a very future proof design, especially with GPU performance increasing far faster than CPUs.

A couple notes here:
1) He speculated it would move one way. He could be right. He could be wrong. He did say that both directions are being taken.
2) Draw call capabilities went up about 100 times. There is a ton of room to grow that direction should they choose, even if they start using the GPU scheduling more.
3) My point still stands, no matter what direction things eventually go. We will not see increases in draw calls without dropping DX11 (unless they make the game different in DX11). So until we drop DX11, you won't see the new advantages of DX12 with draw calls. And dev's are already looking to take advantage of it, even if it's not most.

 

[TheELF]

Sadly, I did not save a very important link a while back, so I don't know the game, but there has already been at least 1 case, where the PC version lacked effects the consoles had, specifically because PC's couldn't handle the draw calls needed.

So we will get better ports but games will still be made for the consoles,devs will still be constricted by the console hardware ,still no increase of draw call capabilities.
Let's see what the next (half) gen of consoles have to offer.

 

[bystander36]

So we will get better ports but games will still be made for the consoles,devs will still be constricted by the console hardware ,still no increase of draw call capabilities.
Let's see what the next (half) gen of consoles have to offer.

dogen1 already proved there are games with a lot more draw calls in the works with this post from a dev: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/vulkan-is-a-gcn-low-level-construct.58257/page-3#post-1939539

The the truth is, we probably won't get to know when it's happening, because it won't be on games with a DX11 version.

 

[dogen1]

dogen1 already proved there are games with a lot more draw calls in the works with this post from a dev: https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/vulkan-is-a-gcn-low-level-construct.58257/page-3#post-1939539

Yes, but also many that won't. Sidestepping the draw call issue altogether will benefit all platforms.

 

[bystander36]

I never said all, or even most games will have a big increase in draw calls. I said we won't see an increase in draw calls until DX11 is dropped, as the games are designed to run on both atm. I also said that with new resources, dev's will find a way to use it. Not all, but some.

You guys seem to want to argue that I think all games will see a big increase. I never said that, or even thought that.

 

[Rifter]

Yes and since that's the consoles we'll see no change whatsoever, consoles can use low level since forever.
Ashes was made especially for PC and high draw call and Dx11 is still better...

On what planet? here on earth both nvidia and AMD do better in dx12......

 

[Headfoot]

Yet another thread where trolls with some weird obsession with fabricating a story where DX12 is a less efficient API than DX11 derail the whole thread

 

[TheELF]

Yet another thread where trolls with some weird obsession with fabricating a story where DX12 is a less efficient API than DX11 derail the whole thread

Dx12 is more efficient no question about it,but at the moment it still has too many problems/bugs,even if you get lucky and it runs perfectly it needs much more vram and loads longer,it still has a very long way to go.

And about ashes,ok so now both vendors run better with Dx12,after how many years of development?
And that's like the total goldilocks case for Dx12.

So back on topic,anyone up to showing any actual driver usage in any game they might play?

 

[zinfamous]

I don't doubt that many games, if not most at the start will not inflate draw calls, but let's be honest a second. The dev's always find a way to utilize any new tool they have if it's available. You might not see it now, but I bet in time you'll see a decent increase in draw calls to use some new special effects. I remember early on with the new consoles (I forget the name of the game), where some console game had a cool special effect with grass fields which moved in a life like manner, but had to be taken out of the PC version, because it was very draw call intensive to do that effect they way they did. You might also find that instead of spending a lot of man power to find tricks to shrink the draw calls down, dev's will just go the easy route and just allows DX12's advantage to deal with it.

I also don't expect a lot of this from Indie titles. It's typically the AAA titles that go all out in visuals.

DA:I? I recall a lot of hullabaloo about how much of the visuals and performance were limited not only because of the new PS4/XBone, but especially because the game was still made for PS3 and X360. I think the PC version was still very gorgeous in the end, but there was a lot of teeth gnashing about the console versions, explicitly because of designing for the previous gen console. Oh, and it's a game that had a lot of grass, so that's what got me thinking.

 

[ConsoleLover]

DX12 can be 2x times better(faster) than DX11 if properly setup and optimised. Since it allows for low level optimisation, if done right it can literally double performance compared to DX11.

The reason we haven't seen such gains is because its at its infancy, reworking game engines takes time and money, optimising the game specifically for an array of gpu options is super hard, nvidia and amd implement dx12 computing differently and thus developers are trying to find a middle ground between the two(not benefiting each manufacturer), because low level optimization for 2 different cores is a ton of work.

 

[ConsoleLover]

Dx12 is more efficient no question about it,but at the moment it still has too many problems/bugs,even if you get lucky and it runs perfectly it needs much more vram and loads longer,it still has a very long way to go.

And about ashes,ok so now both vendors run better with Dx12,after how many years of development?
And that's like the total goldilocks case for Dx12.

So back on topic,anyone up to showing any actual driver usage in any game they might play?

That is like saying the first SSD drives who were extremely faulty and while faster than HDD in general, after decent use it would slow down to bellow HDD speeds are not overall better than HDD's. Of course the initial implementation is going to be weaker.

 

[esquared]

This thread is now locked and warnings/infractions will we given to those that have taken this thread off-topic after my warning.


esquared
Anandtech Forum Director