creeping along in 1st very slowly, is that lugging the engine?

[Zenmervolt]

Yeah, then that's not lugging now is it? You're basically saying that you're "lugging" your engine if you load it up and I'm calling bullshit on that.

And, as usual, you're flat-out wrong.

You can't lug an FI engine usually because there are things the computer does in order to prevent the very things you are describing.

No, there aren't. The computer cannot magically produce the extra torque necessary to stop the engine from lugging. If I throw my EFI car into 5th at 25 mph, it will lug the engine and it will cause severe amounts of additional stress on the main bearings, wrist pin bearings, and the rings.

Why not just come out and instead of saying "don't lug an engine"(because you damn well know you can't do that to an FI vehicle unless something is wrong or too low of an octane) and just say "don't run your engine at high load".

Because, unless a person is brain-dead, they know that lugging is different from high load. Lugging is excessive load, which is going beyond merely a "high load" condition. When I shift into 5th at 45 mph in my car, it's a high load scenario. If I were a moron and shifted into 5th at 25 mph, it would be lugging. When I'm driving at 55 mph on a long uphill stretch with 5 PSI of positive manifold pressure just to maintain speed, that's high load. If the engine were bogging or bucking slightly, that would be lugging.

See, there's a difference, but it's still possible. Lugging has NOTHING to do with mixture, fuel delivery, or octane rating.

That way we can ignore you and continue on with other things.

Given your track record, I'm going to consider it a sure sign that I'm right that you don't agree with me.

There is a BIG difference between lugging an engine and "loading it up". Loading it up meaning running it at a high load and you're advocating NOT doing that..

We covered this. If an engine is struggling, it's lugging. Lugging is when you pass from merely high load to excessive load. If you're not mechanically sensitive enough to know the difference, you should consider applying for membership in the association of woman drivers and just be done with it.

How about this:
Can you lug a fuel injected engine that is paired up with an automatic transmission? Too vague? Can you lug an FI engine that is paired up with a modern automatic transmission?(on a vehicle that is less than 5 years old)

Who's talking about automatic transmissions? Lugging applies to manual transmission vehicles only as it is only with a manual transmission that one can force the car to hold too high of a gear for the amount of loading.

It would be extremely difficult (enough for it to be practically impossible) to successfully cause the engine to lug in a vehicle with an automatic transmission because an automatic is "smart" enough to downshift when necessary. This is true whether it's a brand new car or a 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air. Even if the vehicle were severely overloaded, the natural slip in the torque converter (which, even in high gears would be unlocked under any meaningful load) would make it impossible to lug the engine. You would, however, destroy the transmission from excessive heat buildup.

Simply put, you clearly have no idea what lugging an engine actually is and the appropriate and intelligent thing for you to do here would be to stop professing knowledge that you obviously do not have.

ZV

 

[Zenmervolt]

Sure it does, when the computer has control over functions such as being able to retard timing of various things. The computer can even do fuel cut if need be.

Retarding timing will reduce pinging, but will also reduce power, which makes lugging worse.

Cutting fuel will also reduce power which will also make lugging worse, besides which I don't know of a single EFI computer that is set up to reduce fuel flow under excessive loading. Reducing fuel flow makes knock worse and typical response to knock is to increase fuel flow (i.e. richen the mixture) while retarding timing.

Neither scenario would stop or even reduce lugging. In fact, both of the "solutions" you posit would make things worse.

ZV

 

[Meghan54]

ZV, while fleabag is fun to poke at with facts, face it.....he knows everything. That can be seen by his continual belittling anyone with true life/work experience in whatever subject he thinks he knows something about, which I have yet to see any true knowledge from him.

Instead, he chooses to live in his warped alternate universe of fleabag is always right despite being shown otherwise by much more knowledgeable and experienced people.

To wit: his comment that he surely knows more than those "korean engineers" about fuel economy and car design, or that he definitely has seen more tires than someone who has worked in the industry for almost three decades and practically calls them stupid, or that he says he knows more about writing programs than actual programmers who've been working in the industry for decades, and on and on.

But I almost feel sorry for the kid....he's stuck in the I-know-it-all-and-you-don't part of being a teenager. I feel bad for him....and really hate to see when he hits puberty. Think things are bad for him now, just wait for that to happen.

 

[fleabag]

And, as usual, you're flat-out wrong.

As usual, you're just as confident about being right as I am.

No, there aren't. The computer cannot magically produce the extra torque necessary to stop the engine from lugging. If I throw my EFI car into 5th at 25 mph, it will lug the engine and it will cause severe amounts of additional stress on the main bearings, wrist pin bearings, and the rings.

overloading an engine and lugging it aren't the same thing, the computer should physically not allow it to make do all those horrible things one would imagine.. Have you ever in an automatic had in it drive, on the side of a hill and then let the car roll back in the opposite direction of the rotation of the engine? I have and let me tell you, it wasn't horrifying but it was somewhat similar to what you describe. First it bucked a bit, got a lot more violent very quickly and then the engine died entirely. I stopped the car and turned the engine back on like as if nothing happened. If it was a carbureted vehicle, I'm pretty sure I'd have more to say about what happened. If you want to call what I just described lugging, fine be my guest as I'd agree as well. However for you to make a generalization that all it is is just too low of an rpm for the gear and therefore speed, then I simply cannot agree with you because that's just describing high load.

Because, unless a person is brain-dead, they know that lugging is different from high load. Lugging is excessive load, which is going beyond merely a "high load" condition. When I shift into 5th at 45 mph in my car, it's a high load scenario. If I were a moron and shifted into 5th at 25 mph, it would be lugging. When I'm driving at 55 mph on a long uphill stretch with 5 PSI of positive manifold pressure just to maintain speed, that's high load. If the engine were bogging or bucking slightly, that would be lugging.

See, there's a difference, but it's still possible. Lugging has NOTHING to do with mixture, fuel delivery, or octane rating.
Yeah well an FI engine will simply cut out after a certain point, a carbureted engine however will not as easily and consequently will run like shit. I like how you describe 5th gear and 25mph because I do just that in my Civic and it accelerates just fine, albiet slow. Now 5th gear and 20mph, well that doesn't work out too well so I stay in 4th gear until I can get into 5th.



Given your track record, I'm going to consider it a sure sign that I'm right that you don't agree with me.


We covered this. If an engine is struggling, it's lugging. Lugging is when you pass from merely high load to excessive load. If you're not mechanically sensitive enough to know the difference, you should consider applying for membership in the association of woman drivers and just be done with it.
The only thing that I can think of is an improperly functioning FI engine or a carbureted engine. You can't lug a fuel injection engine that is working properly. Hey, if it is "so obvious" the difference between a lugging engine and a non lugging engine, how about you show everyone. You're not going to see an FI engine lug because if you did, it'd be extremely obvious just like you said, bucking, pinging, knocking, horrible sounds all at once.


Who's talking about automatic transmissions? Lugging applies to manual transmission vehicles only as it is only with a manual transmission that one can force the car to hold too high of a gear for the amount of loading.

It would be extremely difficult (enough for it to be practically impossible) to successfully cause the engine to lug in a vehicle with an automatic transmission because an automatic is "smart" enough to downshift when necessary. This is true whether it's a brand new car or a 1957 Chevrolet Bel Air. Even if the vehicle were severely overloaded, the natural slip in the torque converter (which, even in high gears would be unlocked under any meaningful load) would make it impossible to lug the engine. You would, however, destroy the transmission from excessive heat buildup.

Well the way you people have been describing "lugging" it would imply that one could lug an automatic transmission. Oh and as for the whole "slip in the torque converter thing", what about when it's locked up??
Just look at this quote:

Because if you use 3rd gear, you lug the engine, you idiot! Or don't you understand what lugging an engine is, anyway?

The only thing that happens if I try to ascend the hill in 3rd gear (assuming I'm already AT speed) is that the RPM and speed of the car will drop pretty quickly till the point where I HAVE to shift unless I want to be at a complete standstill. This exact same behavior can happen in an automatic on the same hill and consequently the automatic transmission will too downshift unless I let up on the accelerator and come to a complete stop.

 

[Zenmervolt]

As usual, you're just as confident about being right as I am.

And, also as usual, it's because I actually am right, and you're simply a deluded child.

overloading an engine and lugging it aren't the same thing, the computer should physically not allow it to make do all those horrible things one would imagine.. Have you ever in an automatic had in it drive, on the side of a hill and then let the car roll back in the opposite direction of the rotation of the engine? I have and let me tell you, it wasn't horrifying but it was somewhat similar to what you describe. First it bucked a bit, got a lot more violent very quickly and then the engine died entirely. I stopped the car and turned the engine back on like as if nothing happened. If it was a carbureted vehicle, I'm pretty sure I'd have more to say about what happened. If you want to call what I just described lugging, fine be my guest as I'd agree as well. However for you to make a generalization that all it is is just too low of an rpm for the gear and therefore speed, then I simply cannot agree with you because that's just describing high load.

It would be no different with a carburetor. None at all. You very clearly have no clue what you're talking about here.

Well the way you people have been describing "lugging" it would imply that one could lug an automatic transmission.

Since an automatic will always downshift in instances where lugging would be an issue, no, it doesn't at all imply that it would be possible to lug an automatic.

Oh and as for the whole "slip in the torque converter thing", what about when it's locked up??

That is a situation that will never occur with a properly functioning automatic. The very first thing that an automatic does when increased load is applied is to unlock the clutch in the torque converter. Apparently in addition to not understanding what lugging an engine is, you also do not understand how automatic transmissions work.

The only thing that happens if I try to ascend the hill in 3rd gear (assuming I'm already AT speed) is that the RPM and speed of the car will drop pretty quickly till the point where I HAVE to shift unless I want to be at a complete standstill. This exact same behavior can happen in an automatic on the same hill and consequently the automatic transmission will too downshift unless I let up on the accelerator and come to a complete stop.

Really? You can ride 3rd gear right down to 0 RPM at WOT while attempting to ascend a hill without lugging the engine? That's your claim? That's all we need to know to prove you're full of something brown and squishy.

I'm tapping out on this one. To anyone who actually comes across this thread looking for advice, you're welcome to come to your own judgment on this one. Just bear in mind that following fleabag's advice is very likely to cause long-term severe damage to your vehicle.

ZV

 

[exdeath]

Fleabag should try this on a boosted engine and let us know what happens. WOT in 5th gear at 15 mph, go go go!

 

[BlackTigers]

Fleabag....have you ever actually driven a car?

 

[PhoKingGuy]

Fleabag should try this on a boosted engine and let us know what happens. WOT in 5th gear at 15 mph, go go go!

Lol I remember when I first got my GTI (never driven a boosted car before) I would always accidentally shift too soon all the time and it would drop out of boost...something like a nicely accelerating car...shift.....then suddenly the rpms would drop to like 1k then it would bog untill it revved back into boost.

Quickly learned not to do that anymore

 

[fleabag]

And, also as usual, it's because I actually am right, and you're simply a deluded child.

C'mon, why can't I be a deluded man with a wife, two kids and 4 grand kids?

It would be no different with a carburetor. None at all. You very clearly have no clue what you're talking about here.

See the problem is we're talking about two different conditions so of course you feel that way. I'm saying if you truly overload a carbureted engine, you'll get some scary noises, with an FI, nothing will sound particularly strange unless there is something wrong with it.

Since an automatic will always downshift in instances where lugging would be an issue, no, it doesn't at all imply that it would be possible to lug an automatic.

That is a situation that will never occur with a properly functioning automatic. The very first thing that an automatic does when increased load is applied is to unlock the clutch in the torque converter. Apparently in addition to not understanding what lugging an engine is, you also do not understand how automatic transmissions work.

You're assuming too much. Again I'm going off of what you people are describing as "lugging". Also you are assuming too much about the workings of an automatic transmission which does vary considerably between vehicles. With the Volvo S60, I've found that once I've locked up the torque converter, it will not unlock unless I force a gear change via the geartronic shifter or get below the MPH threshold in which the torque converter will disengage. This means that I can gun the throttle multiple times and I can ascend a very steep incline and it will remain engaged until the time in which it meets the conditions as listed above. That would imply that I can run the engine at the highest load possible, unless the throttle by wire system is preventing such "lugging" which in that case would further prove my point about the computer being able to intervene.

I'm pretty good with finessing the computer and getting torque converters to lockup and stay locked up because of my experience with automatics. So either I am "lugging it" (going by your incorrect definition of "lugging" or I am just "overloading it". Maybe the condition you're describing is specifically overloading an engine while at a low RPM. But I think it's stupid to be specific about the RPM because every engine is different and technically if you can overload an engine at 1200rpm you can overload an engine at any RPM just so long as the load exceeds its capacity.

Really? You can ride 3rd gear right down to 0 RPM at WOT while attempting to ascend a hill without lugging the engine? That's your claim? That's all we need to know to prove you're full of something brown and squishy.

I'm tapping out on this one. To anyone who actually comes across this thread looking for advice, you're welcome to come to your own judgment on this one. Just bear in mind that following fleabag's advice is very likely to cause long-term severe damage to your vehicle

Hey I'm not advocating anyone to "lug" their engine, however I don't think anybody is physically capable of doing such a thing in most circumstances with a Fuel Injected vehicle. If you want ZV, I'll let you get your say and just say that I agree one should not shift into 5th gear at 15mph in most circumstances. One circumstance where you could shift into 5th at a very low speed is if you're at the top of a long hill with a shallow descent and plan on descending it. In that case, if I'm already moving at like 5 or 10mph, I'd shift from 3rd to 5th and just coast down it.


Otherwise I don't get what you're getting at EXCEPT there will be a point where an automatic transmission will stop lugging the engine while on a manual, the car will just die. though I did point out an experience where I killed an automatic transmission by going backwards in a forward gear.

 

[jlee]

With the Volvo S60, I've found that once I've locked up the torque converter, it will not unlock unless I force a gear change via the geartronic shifter or get below the MPH threshold in which the torque converter will disengage. This means that I can gun the throttle multiple times and I can ascend a very steep incline and it will remain engaged until the time in which it meets the conditions as listed above.

Your parents' Volvo will downshift when needed, regardless of your 'experience driving with automatic transmissions'. Drive up a real hill and you'll find that out.

 

[DivideBYZero]

I'm pretty good with finessing the computer and getting torque converters to lockup and stay locked up because of my experience with automatics.

One day, when I grow up, I want to be able to finesse an S60. :awe:

 

[fleabag]

Your parents' Volvo will downshift when needed, regardless of your 'experience driving with automatic transmissions'. Drive up a real hill and you'll find that out.

Like I said... "drive up a real hill", lol I don't think you have a clue what a real hill is.. try 22% grade.

One day, when I grow up, I want to be able to finesse an S60. :awe:

I'm not sure what you're getting at. I mean I know you're being a douche, I just don't know how nor why. What are you implying exactly? Are you saying something bad about the car? If so, I'm all ears cause for a car with 37K miles and being a 2004 model YR, I think it's had one too many problems.

 

[Meghan54]

Trouble is, fleabag probably cannot discern the difference between the converter lockup and the trans. downshifting to a lower gear.

And there's no possible way to "finesse" the computer or trans. in your parent's S60 to keep the converter locked up while revving the engine, climbing a hill, or anything else he claims. All controlled by rpm's, gear selection, load, etc. The driver has NO control, as we all know, over whether the converter locks up....outside keeping the gear selector in a lower gear on purpose.

Again, fleabag delivers....in spades! Guess this is what having an only child does to the child.....retarded maturing.

 

[fleabag]

Trouble is, fleabag probably cannot discern the difference between the converter lockup and the trans. downshifting to a lower gear.

And there's no possible way to "finesse" the computer or trans. in your parent's S60 to keep the converter locked up while revving the engine, climbing a hill, or anything else he claims. All controlled by rpm's, gear selection, load, etc. The driver has NO control, as we all know, over whether the converter locks up....outside keeping the gear selector in a lower gear on purpose.

Again, fleabag delivers....in spades! Guess this is what having an only child does to the child.....retarded maturing.

Revving? You fail.. For one thing, if the converter is locked up, you're not going to be "revving" anything... It's pretty damn obvious when the torque converter is locked up. Yes you can "finesse" the computer by easing up on the throttle at the correct speed, letting it lock up and from there you can floor it.

 

[DivideBYZero]

"finesse the computer"

 

[jlee]

Like I said... "drive up a real hill", lol I don't think you have a clue what a real hill is.. try 22% grade.

If you can make it up Mount Washington without your torque converter unlocking, I will be impressed. Let me know when you try and I'll be there.

 

[Meghan54]

Revving? You fail.. For one thing, if the converter is locked up, you're not going to be "revving" anything... It's pretty damn obvious when the torque converter is locked up. Yes you can "finesse" the computer by easing up on the throttle at the correct speed, letting it lock up and from there you can floor it.

Then gunning the throttle is not revving the engine?

This means that I can gun the throttle multiple times and I can ascend a very steep incline and it will remain engaged....

At least keep your bullshit straight....esp. in the same thread.

And once you floor the throttle on an automatic, it unlocks the converter (which is hidden by the increasing rpm's of pushing the throttle down).....they all work like this without exception. Unless, of course, you're talking about gunning the throttle in neutral, in which case the converter isn't locked at all.

And real hills? LOL! Try driving up the Rockies.....true, those aren't hills, they're mountains.

Now, go get ready for school....

 

[fleabag]

If you can make it up Mount Washington without your torque converter unlocking, I will be impressed. Let me know when you try and I'll be there.

I didn't say it WON'T disengage at all, ever, I said it won't disengage until what I mentioned above occurs first. This means that if I can maintain speed and I don't touch the shifter, the torque converter will remain locked up. So what I usually do is get some speed, to like 40mph in 3rd gear with the torque converter locked up (locks up at 25mph in 3rd gear) and then using momentum I ascend the hill while flooring it. The car loses a considerable amount of speed but if I do things right, I'll make it past the most steep part, get to the less steep part which then allows me to accelerate a bit, go to another steep part and make it to the top before the speed gets too low.

If I don't time things correctly and have enough speed, then what will happen is the car gets to 20mph, the torque converter disengages, car then ignores the gear that was selected (3rd), and downshifts into 2nd gear before reaching a certain speed (25mph?) where it will then go back to the selected gear, lock up the torque converter and repeat the process. This is actually a bit similar to how an older truck of ours (the one that was warmed up in Tahoe in winter) where it'd attempt to ascend the hill in 2nd gear, lose speed, shift into 1st gear, rev up considerably to redline and then shift into 2nd gear, lose speed and go back into 1st, cycling back and forth.. The only difference is, I've never driven the older truck while I HAVE driven the Volvo.. So therefore I'm not aware if one could accelerate quickly enough to maintain 2nd gear while going through the steep parts. Given that I've ridden in the truck for a considerable amount of time and seen its shift patterns, I'd say you probably couldn't do it. I hope one day to swap the automatic transmission for a manual.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Given that I've ridden in the truck for a considerable amount of time and seen its shift patterns, I'd say you probably couldn't do it. I hope one day to swap the automatic transmission for a manual.

:awe:

 

[fleabag]

Then gunning the throttle is not revving the engine?

Oh fuck... are you stupid? Why are you posting in this thread? Revving and gunning the throttle aren't the same thing.. Why? Because you see when people drive vehicles, there is thing called the transmission. The transmission couples the engine with the wheels. In this thing called an "automatic transmission", the newer ones have this thing called torque converter lockup". Automatic transmissions have this thing called a torque converter. This torque converter is akin to two fans placed across from each other with one fan being powered and spinning which blows air into the other fan causing the opposing fan to spin. The newer automatic transmissions have a way to "lock up" the fans so that they're basically connected to each other. So anyway, when people are driving, if the torque converter is not locked up and they gun the throttle, the engine will spin faster than the wheels. However when the torque converter is locked up and you press the throttle, the engine does not spin faster than the wheels but at the exact same rate since they're "locked" together. Therefore in order for the engine to spin quickly, so do the wheels and so one cannot "rev" an engine with the torque converter is locked up unless the wheels aren't on the ground. But then again, why not just "unlock" the torque converter and put the transmission into neutral if all you want to do is just rev the engine?

At least keep your bullshit straight....esp. in the same thread.

And once you floor the throttle on an automatic, it unlocks the converter (which is hidden by the increasing rpm's of pushing the throttle down).....they all work like this without exception. Unless, of course, you're talking about gunning the throttle in neutral, in which case the converter isn't locked at all.

You have no clue as to what you're talking about. If there is anything I've learned is that no two cars are alike. The Volvo in question has what I believe is Throttle by wire and secondly has no such "step down" button to force the transmission to downshift like a Lexus LS400 does.. But then again the LS400 is a hell of a lot older than an S60.. Once you lock up the torque converter, it won't unlock unless you do what I said is needed to be done in order to unlock it. I think I know more about a car I drive than you do.

Rockies are long up hill descents.. That's just hard on the engine but has nothing to do with the ascent. Why not just try ascending a 5 story house and then tell me which is harder to ascend...

Nice personal attack, Enjoy a week off for that nice comment.
AT Mod
Gillbot

 

[BlackTigers]

Why the fuck do you care so much about the torque converter?


This is like trying to argue that brakes stop the car or something equally retarded.

It's a part of the transmission, and it works how it works. Trying to finesse the computer is a fucking Volvo is one of the stupidest things I've heard, lmao. Might as well finesse the radio while you're at it.

I thought you drove a stick? Why does it matter to you what a torque converter does?

 

[Meghan54]

He cares because he's so full of shit, his eyes are brown. He absolutely has no idea what he's talking about in any case.....he pulls crap out of his bum, posts like he's got years of experience while he's only driven 6 months.

He's simply a teenager trying to impress anyone who'll listen with his "depth" of knowledge, which is shallower than a puddle of water on the moon.

And watch out, flea, the girls at school have cooties.....they'll get you if you get too close to them. Run!

BTW....revving an engine and gunning an engine are the same thing.

 

[BlackTigers]

BTW....revving an engine and gunning an engine are the same thing.

Haha, that's what I thought.

Unless he's talking about a manual....which won't downshift for you. So gunning it doesn't rev it on an incline.

Wouldn's surprise me if he's talking about the MTX torque converters, they're pretty common. I hate it when my torque converter slips in my MTX.

 

[fleabag]

Why the fuck do you care so much about the torque converter?


This is like trying to argue that brakes stop the car or something equally retarded.

It's a part of the transmission, and it works how it works. Trying to finesse the computer is a fucking Volvo is one of the stupidest things I've heard, lmao. Might as well finesse the radio while you're at it.

I thought you drove a stick? Why does it matter to you what a torque converter does?

The "stick" I drive is in the Honda.. The Automatic is in the Volvo..

He cares because he's so full of shit, his eyes are brown. He absolutely has no idea what he's talking about in any case.....he pulls crap out of his bum, posts like he's got years of experience while he's only driven 6 months.

He's simply a teenager trying to impress anyone who'll listen with his "depth" of knowledge, which is shallower than a puddle of water on the moon.

And watch out, flea, the girls at school have cooties.....they'll get you if you get too close to them. Run!

BTW....revving an engine and gunning an engine are the same thing.

I never said "gunning an engine" I meant gunning the accelerator, which is just another sensor in the Volvo which simply "suggests" to go faster opposed to a non throttle by wire car. If the torque converter is locked up, you can't rev the engine faster than the transmission. You said rev the engine, I'm saying I'm not doing that.. What part do you not understand? I think it's the fact that one can lockup a torque converter and have the accelerator to the floor is the part that "baffles" you.. Just remember the Volvo has Geartronic so the way it behaves as a transmission is a bit different from a traditional automatic when you have it in the "select a gear" mode.

 

[jlee]

I didn't say it WON'T disengage at all, ever, I said it won't disengage until what I mentioned above occurs first. This means that if I can maintain speed and I don't touch the shifter, the torque converter will remain locked up. So what I usually do is get some speed, to like 40mph in 3rd gear with the torque converter locked up (locks up at 25mph in 3rd gear) and then using momentum I ascend the hill while flooring it. The car loses a considerable amount of speed but if I do things right, I'll make it past the most steep part, get to the less steep part which then allows me to accelerate a bit, go to another steep part and make it to the top before the speed gets too low.

Like I said, try a real hill.