Crate engines.

[Demon-Xanth]

I ran across this story about the GT-R engine (and many other parts) not being sold unless you're working on another GT-R...
http://www.autoblog.com/2009/0...r-engine-for-your-510/

...and it reminded me of the story that GM announced that there'll be an LS9 crate engine back at SEMA.
http://jalopnik.com/5069977/zr...9-crate-engine-to-sema

Why does it seem like so many manufacturers won't market their engines on their own, but american companies see it as a complete market in itself?

 

[an51r]

My guess is because if they sold the engine you could basically own a skyline for half the price. Whats to stop someone from buying a lower end used 350z and dropping the internals from the skyline/gt-r in it and marketing it for 60,000 or so bucks and then Nissan is losing money. Do I think this is good business practice, hell no, but that would be my guess on there thinking in the matter.

 

[sdifox]

margin would be my guess

 

[Zenmervolt]

Originally posted by: an51r
My guess is because if they sold the engine you could basically own a skyline for half the price. Whats to stop someone from buying a lower end used 350z and dropping the internals from the skyline/gt-r in it and marketing it for 60,000 or so bucks and then Nissan is losing money. Do I think this is good business practice, hell no, but that would be my guess on there thinking in the matter.

The same thing that's stopping someone from buying a low-end used Mustang and dropping a 5.0 cammer into it and selling it as competition for the Shelby.

The truth is that it's not a huge market for such things because people are (rightfully) wary about buying a car that has been put together by an unknown mechanic. The person who would be able to afford an actual GT-R or Shelby Mustang isn't going to be in the market for a hacked-together imitation (an imitation that still won't have the special pieces, interior, or suspension upgrades of the real thing), and the person in the market for the imitation isn't going to have the financial footing to buy the real thing.

ZV

 

[Jeff7181]

It's a good question, but I think the reason may be that there are literally hundreds of makes/models of classic cars that will accept a small block Chevy so there are many thousands of people that are potential buyers. In contrast, not many vehicles will accept the engine for a 350Z, Skyline, S2000 or RX7. The market is MUCH smaller for those type of engines.

 

[theeedude]

Why would one get a GT-R crate engine over an LS7 or LS9 crate engine?
Smaller, lighter, more reliable and more powerful, with a proven gearbox to match.

 

[Jeff7181]

Originally posted by: senseamp
Why would one get a GT-R crate engine over an LS7 or LS9 crate engine?
Smaller, lighter, more reliable and more powerful, with a proven gearbox to match.

By that logic, why bother with an LS7 or LS9? Why not go for a 596 hemi crate engine?

 

[Apex]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: senseamp
Why would one get a GT-R crate engine over an LS7 or LS9 crate engine?
Smaller, lighter, more reliable and more powerful, with a proven gearbox to match.

By that logic, why bother with an LS7 or LS9? Why not go for a 596 hemi crate engine?

The 596 Hemi is smaller and lighter than an LS7? Dang.

 

[JeffreyLebowski]

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: senseamp
Why would one get a GT-R crate engine over an LS7 or LS9 crate engine?
Smaller, lighter, more reliable and more powerful, with a proven gearbox to match.

By that logic, why bother with an LS7 or LS9? Why not go for a 596 hemi crate engine?

Note that he said proven gear box. Dodge is not known for quality transmissions.

Anyways. to the OP. Look at all the weekend drag racers, stock car racer wannabes, ect. There is a market for the engines out there.
While engines like the LS7 or LS2 are expensive,a 350 block with heads is cheap. slap in a cam, exhaust and an intake and you can make a lot of HP for under $2K

 

[Mursilis]

Originally posted by: Zenmervolt

Originally posted by: an51r
My guess is because if they sold the engine you could basically own a skyline for half the price. Whats to stop someone from buying a lower end used 350z and dropping the internals from the skyline/gt-r in it and marketing it for 60,000 or so bucks and then Nissan is losing money. Do I think this is good business practice, hell no, but that would be my guess on there thinking in the matter.

The same thing that's stopping someone from buying a low-end used Mustang and dropping a 5.0 cammer into it and selling it as competition for the Shelby.

The truth is that it's not a huge market for such things because people are (rightfully) wary about buying a car that has been put together by an unknown mechanic. The person who would be able to afford an actual GT-R or Shelby Mustang isn't going to be in the market for a hacked-together imitation (an imitation that still won't have the special pieces, interior, or suspension upgrades of the real thing), and the person in the market for the imitation isn't going to have the financial footing to buy the real thing.

ZV

Not to mention I doubt you'd come out ahead financially doing such a thing (trying to "upgrade" a base car to a higher-end version by buying and installing the right factory parts). OEM parts usually aren't all that cheap.

 

[theeedude]

I am guessing they are limited production parts, and Nissan wants to save them for actual GT-R's.

 

[compman25]

I would like a GT-R engine for my 72 Datsun 510.

 

[bananapeel42]

They're price for a crate engine would probably be 20k or more. I know an LS7 crate engine is in the 15k range.

 

[overst33r]

Originally posted by: bananapeel42
They're price for a crate engine would probably be 20k or more. I know an LS7 crate engine is in the 15k range.

Dirt cheap for what it is. Nothing with comparable power to weight and torque/weight figures comes even close.

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I am guessing they are limited production parts, and Nissan wants to save them for actual GT-R's.

I mean in general. Outside of GM, Ford, and Chrysler, I don't really see any crate engine programs besides replacements to dealers. Nothing focused on the end user anywhere.

 

[theeedude]

Maybe because there isn't a big enough market for foreign crate engine to justify factory investment. Most of the popular crate engines are simple modular designs, while engines like GT-Rs are much more complicated beasts that are more integrated with other systems of that car. Crate engine buyers want cheap simple power, for which high displacement is a good thing, while foreign manufacturers evolved in environment of displacement taxation, and like to use more complicated designs to squeeze out as much horsepower as they can out of a given displacement.

 

[Howard]

Exhaust manifold needs work.

Do they make it simple on purpose? I can't imagine that they don't have anybody who's capable of optimizing the exhaust geometry.

 

[LordMorpheus]

Originally posted by: Howard
Exhaust manifold needs work.

Do they make it simple on purpose? I can't imagine that they don't have anybody who's capable of optimizing the exhaust geometry.

I think that the added cost just isn't worth it. I mean yes, you want equal length pipes from each cylinder before the merge into the main, but I doubt the 5-10 hp gain from doing so is worth the cost. There could also easily be major space constraints in the corvette that made them use the one they had.

Also, for a crate motor that's going to be around 20k, I'd bet that almost all customers will be installing them in projects that merit custom made exhaust manifolds, so every penny spent by GM developing a better manifold for their crate motor would be a complete waste.

 

[Kadarin]

Originally posted by: LordMorpheus

Originally posted by: Howard
Exhaust manifold needs work.

Do they make it simple on purpose? I can't imagine that they don't have anybody who's capable of optimizing the exhaust geometry.

I think that the added cost just isn't worth it. I mean yes, you want equal length pipes from each cylinder before the merge into the main, but I doubt the 5-10 hp gain from doing so is worth the cost. There could also easily be major space constraints in the corvette that made them use the one they had.

Also, for a crate motor that's going to be around 20k, I'd bet that almost all customers will be installing them in projects that merit custom made exhaust manifolds, so every penny spent by GM developing a better manifold for their crate motor would be a complete waste.

Yes, the customer would just use an Edelbrock/Weiand/Offenhauser or some other intake anyway.

 

[EvilHorace]

US Crate engines are made for those who just want to replace their existing engine with something better. It's an easy bolt-in job. Commonly people with US made "muscle cars" or Hot rods buy these to replace stock engines.
Anyone can buy any import engine assembly too if they want to and have the $$$ but few do as most import owners are happy with their car as-is, or they just modify it. Sure, some go to extremes but it's not as common with imports.

 

[Howard]

I wonder if you could drop this into an RX-7.

 

[foghorn67]

Originally posted by: JeffreyLebowski

Originally posted by: Jeff7181

Originally posted by: senseamp
Why would one get a GT-R crate engine over an LS7 or LS9 crate engine?
Smaller, lighter, more reliable and more powerful, with a proven gearbox to match.

By that logic, why bother with an LS7 or LS9? Why not go for a 596 hemi crate engine?

Note that he said proven gear box. Dodge is not known for quality transmissions.

Anyways. to the OP. Look at all the weekend drag racers, stock car racer wannabes, ect. There is a market for the engines out there.
While engines like the LS7 or LS2 are expensive,a 350 block with heads is cheap. slap in a cam, exhaust and an intake and you can make a lot of HP for under $2K

You mean the Borg Warner that isn't made Dodge?

 

[Demon-Xanth]

Originally posted by: Howard
Exhaust manifold needs work.

Do they make it simple on purpose? I can't imagine that they don't have anybody who's capable of optimizing the exhaust geometry.

Exhaust manifolds are made predominantly for packaging and second for cost. If you notice the space taken up by headers, it can make getting to some things a pain, and for a manufacturer to place them in is rarely easy. Manifolds are much smoother to operate an assembly line with. The HP gained by a matched exhaust in a 4 stroke just isn't that much. A two stroke on the other hand can be well worth it.


...and even the mighty F40 uses manifolds:
http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/f40teardown/1006203204

 

[Howard]

Originally posted by: Demon-Xanth

Originally posted by: Howard
Exhaust manifold needs work.

Do they make it simple on purpose? I can't imagine that they don't have anybody who's capable of optimizing the exhaust geometry.

Exhaust manifolds are made predominantly for packaging and second for cost. If you notice the space taken up by headers, it can make getting to some things a pain, and for a manufacturer to place them in is rarely easy. Manifolds are much smoother to operate an assembly line with. The HP gained by a matched exhaust in a 4 stroke just isn't that much. A two stroke on the other hand can be well worth it.


...and even the mighty F40 uses manifolds:
http://jalopnik.com/photogallery/f40teardown/1006203204

:Q

 

[aleckz]

What the hell.. I was planning to drop one in my Versa.

Shit that plans out the window, LS9 here we come.