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Crash - x800 or MB or chip?

L

LostPacket

Junior Member
I would like to get a feel for your opinion(s) on a crashing problem I am having.

I built a new system about a month ago. Here are the basics:

MB: Intel 925XCV
CPU: Intel P4 3.4 Extreme
RAM: Kingston HyperX DDR2 533 (4x512MB)
HD: WD SATA Raptor (2x74GB)
Audio: Intel on-board/integrated
Video: ATi x800 PCI-Express x16

Also: DVD-RW, floppy, 500W power, XP Pro.

I have no special software running (no AV, firewall/spyware, etc.) Task manager only has the basics running, and no unwanted services running.

Essentially, if I use the system "normally" (meaning web surfing, E-Mail, chat, software development in VS.NET), everything works fine.

However, when I play Rome: Total War, sometimes the game crashes. It tends to crash during battles (full 3-D RTS-style battles). I initially dismissed this as a Rome problem, since I've heard it crash for many people from time to time.

I have now tried World of Warcraft (full 3-D MMORPG, open beta). This is the second game I have installed on the system. When I play it, it crashes as well.

The "crash" is pretty simple. The entire system locks up. No keyboard actions ever work (ALT+TAB, CTRL+ALT+DELETE, etc). The mouse is also unresponsive. No HD activity. However, I can hear a sound being looped. It is being looped probably 10 or so times per second, and its the sound the was being played (from the game) at the time of the freeze. This "infinite loop" of sound is permanent. The only thing I can do is reset. This crash is only somewhat predicatble. It occurs between 10 and 45 minutes of the beginning of play. I thought it was overheating, but I've really cooled the system down dramatically, and it still happens.

Things I've tried/done:
Removed two sticks of RAM at a time (testing 2 pairs in slots 1 & 3). Crashes under all 3 conditions. (4x512, 2x512, 2x512[swapped]).
I have lowered the temperature inside the case. Sensors at 47C, fan speed at 2700 (which is quite low, having seen it over 4000 before).
I have "underclocked" the x800 using PowerStrip.
I have "underclocked" the RAM (both in CL, and overall bus speed).
I have installed the latest ATI drivers.
I have flashed the BIOS.

Crashes still occur after every change.

I do not have a spare PCI-Express video card to swap out, nor do I have a PCI video card I could try. All of my previous cards are AGP, and this MB does not support AGP.

So my question to those of you who have experience with this sort of thing is this:

What is the most likely culprit?

My guess is it's going to be the motherboard, the CPU, or the video card, but I would like some other opinions.

Thanks!
 
I have no special software running (no AV, firewall/spyware, etc.) Task manager only has the basics running, and no unwanted services running.
Click to expand...

Now why in the world would you be running your computer online without a firewall and AV running? I know you're going to tell me that these programs take up cpu cycles which you want available for your gaming ..... but its really unwise to run your system this way. You're an open invitation for every type of malware out there ..... you've more than likely got some (or many) bug on your system. Your chances of having a clean system are about ZERO! Your system could also be spawning worm infested email and sending it to other computers. Who knows, you may even have a file server on it serving up kiddie porn without your knowledge. I suggest you rethink this unless you enjoy a format and fresh install weekly. Worse yet .... the FBI knocking down your door to break up that pornography ring. Don't laugh .... it happens!

Take a trip to HOUSECALL and perform their online virus scan. Put a check in the box to "autoclean" and then scan your entire system. Next, download spybot S&D, update its definitions .... then close out any open browser windows and scan your system. Click the "fix it" button to fix any problems it may find. We absolutely MUST make sure your system is clean to eliminate it from the possibilities of it being the cause of your current problems. We also must make sure its clean so we know that you're not unknowingly contributing to the spread of all those "internet nasties" you read about online and in the newspapers. After you've done all that, promise us you'll go get some AV software and Firewall. There are no excuses for this since AVG has a free version of their AV software, and ZoneAlarm has its free firewall.

Next, lets see ALL the pertinant information. Post your temps ... we want to see them. Post your power readings on your vCORE and all three power rails .... tell us if you're seeing spikes and dips in these readings .... or if its remaining stable. THEN .... post your HijackThis log below your temp and power readings. Be sure to include the header and the list of running processes ..... not just the lower part of the log.

Because of how you've run your system, the scope of possibilities as to what is causing your problems is much much larger than the usual .... Especially in your case .... we must have all your information or we may not be able to help you. And please .... the worst thing you can do is walk away from the help you need. I've shared my thoughts .... so from this point on, as long as you're willing to follow directions to the best of your abilities .... to ask questions when you don't understand something .... we're (not just me) dedicated to helping you fix your problem.
 
try disabling your sound card\\\onboard sound and running the game. see what happens.

reinstall the games\\\patch the games?

try opening up the side of the case and pointing a box fan into it while you run the game.

for antivirus, i would recommend Avast, Adaware for ad software.

zonealarm if you think the world is out to get you.

dont you think your overreacting a bit, detroit? if he can run his computer online with no virus problems, good for him.
 
dont you think your overreacting a bit, detroit? if he can run his computer online with no virus problems, good for him.
Click to expand...

Actually? No .... I've dealt with systems on many occasions that had thousands of instances of viri infected files and malware. People wonder why their machine runs so badly with all those cpu cycles eaten up .... even in the case of non destructive viruses!
 
Holy worm magnets, Batman! :Q No antivirus OR firewall protection?! And if I'm not mistaken, PowerStrip is spyware/adware.

Dude, you have a killer rig, now get yourself a $40 Netgear RP614 to defend it, k? 😛 Or enable WinXP's firewall, or install ZoneAlarm, or something. Also head over to Grisoft and get Grisoft AVG Free Edition, they just upgraded it. Go through the configuration stuff and enable Scan On Close and also Heuristics. Other than the RP614, that stuff won't cost you a dime. 🙂

Now, you have a power-hungry system. Is that 500W power supply a high-quality brand like Enermax, Fortron, Antec, or PC Power & Cooling? If not, get a high-quality one. Enermax is particularly good for systems that want a lot of 12V amperage, if you need a recommendation, but Antec is easier to find.

Nextly, the order in which you install stuff can be important. I go in this order, which I believe is also Intel's recommendation:

0) Unplug the network cable to keep the worms out during all this

1) OS

2) OS service packs (SP2 for WinXP) while offline

3) DirectX 9.0C (except SP2 for WinXP has that already)

4) Chipset drivers BEFORE video drivers, then reboot

5) Video drivers and other drivers AFTER chipset drivers

6) Set strong passwords on Admin-class accounts, enable Data Execution Prevention for all programs, make sure you have a firewall of some kind in place, and install antivirus software.

7) Now that you have a firewall, patches, and at least baseline antivirus protection, plug in the network cable and update your antivirus signatures, then go to Windows Update for the latest patches and run Microsoft Baseline Security Analyzer 1.2.1 to see where you might've overlooked stuff. For links to the full SP2 download, arming DEP completely, and MBSA 1.2.1, go here.

If you installed your drivers in the wrong order, then take another run at it.

On the hardware side again, raise your memory voltage to whatever Kingston designed it for. Mobos are wonderful at undervolting your RAM for you, if you leave them on AUTO for the VDIMM. 😛

Hope that's some help 🙂
 
LostPacket and fishmonger12,

did you know a PC without any protection (no firewall, antivirus, or security updates) can be compromised in under 20 minutes?

Link to article

It is critical that before you even connect to the internet that you have all the security updates (best way to do this is to slipstream sp2 into the install). There is no excuse not to be running an Antivirus and Firewall

Free antivirus
AntiVir

(no registration required and has excellent detection rate according to spywareinfo, better than AVG and Avast, see my antivirus roundup)


Free Firewall
Sygate Personal Firewall

Put a firewall on your system immediatly, block all the unkown apps trying to connect to the net after you put it on there. Then run housecall like DetroitSportsFan suggested.

After you do that, go through the steps in my Malware Removal Guide. After you complete that, post your HJT log for review so we can help you clean up what is left. Malware (viruses and spyware) is most likely the cause of your issues. After the malware possibility is removed, see my Guide to Drivers to make sure you are running the latest official drivers and that you uninstalled the old and installed the new correctly.
 
totally off topic, disregard.

i would argue with you, but my argument is irrelavent to this post and really doesn't present any solutions 🙂
 
I don't believe we've gotten off topic. The guy has a problem. He's asked us to help him figure it out. When you begin troubleshooting issues, you need to take ALL the information into account before you come up with a diagnosis. In his case, he's got no defenses. So, I want to eliminate the possibility of a malware related issue first since to me, thats far more critical than game crashing at this point. His system could very well be a worm spawning, file serving, trojan machine that is no longer controlled by him. Malware can be causing his issues ..... so can heat ..... so can an under performing power supply. The same can be said about sound/video drivers. In his case, his best option may just be to back up his saved game files onto a floppy or separate partition, format, and reinstall using a secure approach to patch and protect his sytem. This alone may fix it. If not, we've at least eliminated it from the mix of what could possibly be wrong. If Lost Packet works with us through all of this, he'll have a far better situation than he started with .... he'll have a secure machine that no longer crashes.


 
arguing with you is not going to help him reach a solution. more of a devil's advocate argument than anything else.

antivirus is VERY desirable. it will save you a lot of hassle. i dont know enough about firewalls to tell you the advantages of them, but im sure that the small amount of resources that it takes to run one is not going to detract from your overall computing experience. I personally dont run one, i just have the windows firewall enabled. I do an adaware scan once a month, and that keeps the computer running pretty smoothly. Avast has detected all of 2 viruses since i installed it; both of those were trojans i knew i was installing when i installed bearshare (ad software).

we need some feedback lost packet.
 
First off, thanks to everyone for the input!

I'm going to try not to upset anyone, but if I do, please forgive me.

First off, I do not like to come off as arrogant, but I'm probably going to say things that make me appear that way!

I do have a Linksys router, but I believe I have bypassed most, of not all, of it's "firewall" by using the DMZ setting to my game system (the system in question). I do not run any software firewall, nor antivirus. This is not an accident or an oversight on my part. This system is one of 4 I own, all on this same network, only one of which has an antivirus on it.

I know it's not in the nature of troubleshooting to "trust" me on this, but I can assure you, with 100% accuracy, that this is not a "malacious" problem. It easily could be in the driver/bios/software conflict realm, but it could not easily be some of the things implied in some of the posts here.

I know! I know you want to slit my throat now, but, at the risk of sounding arrogant again, I truly do not think this problem is caused by any of those types of things.

I understand that doing these things is a prerequisite for some of you to help me. If it is, then thanks, but I am not going to be installing either of those types of applications.

Specific replies:
Yes, I disabled the onboard audio, and bought a new sound card to try out. Still crashes. Returned the card for full refund.

The games are newly installed already. Latest DX9.0c. Always patched to the latest. Keep in mind both games crash in an identical manner. If only one was crashing, I would not be posting here! 🙂

I did actually open the case and aim a standard fan on high right in the "hot zone". I am able to max out the CPU (either via the games, or with a stress test). Processor and Zone 2 on MB peak at 47C, and Zone 1 is a nice 43C. If I turn off the room fan and leave the system running with no side panel, temps peak at 54C and 47C respectively. I asked Intel (paid tech support, not their freebie stuff), and three different techs said either 65 or 70 can be safely hit. I don't think its heat-related. 🙂

The power supply is a 500W Antec. The power readings, even when playing (using ALT+TAB back and forth), power remains absolutely stable, just as the temps peak at 47C (with fan). Green across the board, gentlemen.

I considered a nuke/reinstall, but to be honest, I've done everything to protocol since it was built (e.g. chipset drivers first, etc). I'm hesitant to spend an evening nuking and reinstalling, when I've done that just weeks ago, in the same standard order.

Concerning RAM, I tried swapping out pairs. Always crashes still. I tried easing the settings in case RAM was unstable, using settings directly from Kingston web site, still crashes.

I did not read the "20" minute article. 20 minutes is 19.9 minutes more than needed. It's not malicious!

Okay, I think I covered most of the replies (though some I barely touched on, sorry, this post is long enough!)

New things tried:
New audio card. No dice.
I found a local PC retailer with a SINGLE PCI-Express card in stock. I bought it to try and swap-out. (This swap-out would disprove not only the card, but the drivers as well, since I bought a different brand, assuming I didn't screw up the uninstall and create a conflict.) However, this PCI-Express card was DOA. Just my luck! 🙂 I took it back and put the old one back in, which performs perfectly, until the system crashes of course.

Here is the newest and, in my opinion, most useful piece of info:
If I run the stress test software that came with the motherboard (Intel Desktop Utilities), running ONLY the CPU tests ("CPU" and "CPU MMX"), the crashes still occur, with almost identical symptoms. I was able to do this 5 times in a row today, crashes occuring after 10-25 minutes of stress test. During these 5 tests, I would sometimes use the room fan and sometimes not. Once again, 47C peak with fan, 54C without, which Intel assured me was definately cool enough.

So, from my point of view, this almost completely eliminates the video card, or it's drivers. It's not as good as a swap-out, but it's close.

During stress tests, the system sensors are all available on the screen. The temps heat up to their peaks (47/54), and the voltages remain constant. In fact, I'm not sure I ever saw them move even .01, though I wasn't staring at the screen for 20 minutes at a time today. 🙂 When the crashes happen, the screen is frozen, so I see a "snapshot" of the last screen paint before crash, so I can verify that the system was great up until... I suppose nanoseconds of the crash.

My original question should have been more clearer, so I'll restate it!

All things being equal (pretend with me that we're all agreed that it's not some little kid's virus), based on the symptoms themselves, which is more likely? Video card, Motherboard, or CPU?

Once again, thanks for everyone's help. I wish I had the time, patience, and tolerance, to try all of the suggestions in order, but I that's a lot of investment. If you blow me off because I don't use an antivirus or a software firewall, that's okay with me. 🙂

Maybe I should have just made a poll that asked "What's more likely to fail?" and given 3 choices!

Here's the punchline: In my impatience, I've already RMA'd the MB. It was out the door as of 5pm EST.

I'm on my backup game system for the time being. (Psst, 3+ years, zero antivirus/firewall, zero formats. Sorry, I had to stab at least once in this post!)
 
well, with that already been said, time for MY antivirus splurge. This is highly opinionated and really doesn't help anything, just proves that you CAN run a computer, on a network or directly connected to the internet, and have it be relatively virus free, if you know what you are doing.

i've been running this pc on a virus infected network for 3 months. i have had ZERO viruses\\malware problems with this computer. you ask "how do you know?". well, if there ARE viruses or malware on the computer, they do not slow down the performance at all. noone emails me about spewing worms or anything of the sort. the computer is just as fast as the day i put it together. i did not run any antivirus for the first month and a half on the network. i installed an antivirus on it after the first month and a half, because i discovered avast antivirus, which is free and supposedly works pretty well, so i decided "why not?". after that installation, i still had no viruses, and the only time avast ever popped up asking to remove a virus was when i installed bearshare, which i knew had trojans on it for ad purposes. a quick adaware scan and avast antivirus removal, and those trojans are gone. i have no firewall.

i really think you all are overreacting. 🙂
 
I maintain a fleet of 80 computers that I monitor with McAfee ePolicy Orchestrator, all running VirusScan Enterprise 8.0i antivirus/antiintrusion. Based on my firsthand observation of 80 computers for two years, I'm going to stick to my guns as regards the security measures; a layered defense using best practices. And in the line of business that we're in, we cannot settle for "relatively virus free." I don't think you should settle for that either. One stolen credit-card number thanks to a keystroke logger, and you'll be a financially-hurtin' unit. :evil:

But hey, it's a free country. Good luck.
 
You're right, its a prerequisite. You're obviously smart from the way you phrased your last post. I encourage you to re-think your position. If it was just you who this affected, thats one thing .... but the potential is there to harm other less knowledgeable people.

I run behind a router. I use a software firewall too. I also run AV software and scan my system weekly. On average, my AV software picks up about one virus a month .... usually before it has a chance to infect my system. I also run spyware scans almost daily. I'm not a kid. I don't browse porn sites. I don't browse on the "dark side" of the internet either. The most dangerous thing I do is read my email. Am I just unlucky? .... I really don't think so!

Its one thing to have a difference in opinion. We're all entitled to that. But this situation is entirely different. Its potentially dangerous to other internet users. I'm sorry guy, I probably could have helped you.


 
i will echo the voice of others in this thread by saying that a good hardware firewall and a good software firewall are a part of layered protection. Do not think that being carefull is enough to stop viruses and trojans. It does help a great deal to not do things commonly associated with virus infection (IE Pr0n, Kazaa, etc.). Like i have said, there is no excuse not to have a good freeware firewall like sygate or keiro and a good freeware antivirus like antivir on your systems. They do not consume many resources and offer good protection, better than some of the ones you pay for. But, do as you will, you came to this forum for help, we can not help you if you do not help yourself.
 
I installed the new motherboard, and the system still crashes.

Here's what I've done to try to alleviate some the the software paranoia:

Disconnected network cable.
Removed old HD.
Installed new HD.
Installed XP Pro SP2 (new HD was formatted).
Installed chipset drivers.
Installed StressTest (free version that comes on the same CD as chipset drivers).

Keep in mind the BIOS is still current, and no network cable is connected. During the stress test, the system crashed (in an identical manner as before). Please note that I did this with no other drivers (such as video card, audio, etc).

I then went ahead and connected the network cable, installed all normal drivers (audio, video, full Intel software from chipset CD), and did a windows update. At this point, Device Manager is happy. During the stress test, the system crashed as usual.

I also decided to try unplugged unnecessary hardware, such as floppy, DVD-R, and 3 case fans. (Don't get excited about the case fans. I used a large external fan to keep the system cool.) I did this in case the power supply was near capacity. The system still crashes in the usual way.

I'm hoping that a newly installed operating system, with only chipset drivers and the stress application installed, with no network cable connected nor any network drivers installed (double whammy), that we can safely assume this is not a malicious "attack".

I have also ruled out a faulty hard drive by using a completely different one, of the same make/model as the original.

What's most likely? A semi-failed video card whose issue appears even when drivers are not installed (short circuit on the card itself)? A failed CPU, whose issue appears only when maxxed out? (Remember, the system can run for 8 hours straight of generic use such as code-writing, web page surfing, etc.) A power supply whose voltage readings are extremely stable, but still drops out power instantly? A hardware incompatibility which only appears with PCI-Express ATI x800s on Intel 925XCV motherboards? (Remember, I RMA'd the motherboard.)

My tentative plan at this point, since I do not have access to a PCI-Express NVIDIA card (that works), is to purchase a new power supply at a local hardware place, and swap that out Monday evening.

Thoughts?
 
try stress tests.

run 3dmark in continuous loop to see if it's a vid card thing.

run si soft cpu arithmetic and multimedia burn in 24\7 to see if it's cpu related.
 
Update:

I replaced the power supply, and the system was still crashing.

Still unable to bring myself to order another PCI-Express video card, I RMA'd the CPU. I received the new CPU today, and put it in.

With the old CPU, the stress test would cause a crash anywhere from 2 to 43 minutes. With the new CPU, I have now run the same stress test for over 120 minutes (2 hours), with no crash.

So, my original post was asking the question, what is the most likely culprit of these three choices: MB, CPU, Video. The answer in this case: CPU. I will continue to use and test the system over the weekend, but so far it appears the replacement CPU has resolved the problem.

For those of you that will be assisting others in the future, take note of the exact symptoms, and chalk up another CPU failure.

FYI, the original CPU and the new one are identical, other than the fact that the original one was defective. Intel 3.4 Extreme (LGA775 slot, 800MHz FSB, 2MB cache, retail with heatsink and fan).

 
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