CPU temps for new build - What should I be looking for?

[garetjax]

I am mostly concerned with a comfortable temperature operating range of my CPU, hard drives, and the case itself in a non-overclocked environment. I bought one of those thermal controllers from Silverstone and using that right now. If anyone can give me an idea of what temperature ranges in Fahrenheit and Celsius I should be shooting for (load and idle) to set up the controller I would certainly appreciate it. I don?t know if this makes a difference for heat wise and the temp's but here is my current build:

Antec TruePower 550
AMD64 +3500 Winchester (90nm)
Silverstone SST-TJ03 case (x3 80mm x1 120mm)
x2 WD 74GB Raptors and one 120GB WD Caviar
MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum mobo
OCZ EL Platinum Revision 2 DDR PC-3200
Stock heat sink and fan that came with the proc
Arctic Silver 5 thermal grease
BFG 6800 Ultra OC AGP
Sound Blaster Audigy2 ZS Platinum
Lite-On 16x DVD-ROM
Plextor 52x/32x/52x CR-RW
NEC floppy drive

Thanks in advance! =)

 

[BonzaiDuck]

You'll get a lot of opinions here about this, and everyone has their opinions.

As I recall, the thermal limit posted on AMD's web site for their top-end processors is 90C -- about 20C higher than Intel's top-end. Casually encountering posts on various sites by people with AMD processors, I see load temperatures boasted in the 45C to 55C range, and some people note temperatures as high as 60C.

As far as mid-tower cases go, I like your case, although I'm not partial to 80mm fans even in a twin-exhaust configuration. That being said, if you have a CPU cooler with the fan parallel to the motherboard, the case design is convenient for a simple motherboard "ducting" mod made from 1/4"-thick foam art board, which can be had in 2' x 3' sheets for about $6 each. That sort of thing can promote cooling in your case and drop the CPU temperature as much as 5C, and it will also reduce noise.

As for "what should I shoot for?", I'd simply say -- shoot for a load CPU temp that is minimum. The ducting mod might be an outright alternative for purchasing a high-end cooler, or it could be an improvement for one such as the ThermalRight XP120. How much money do you want to spend, and how much time do you have to make such refinements?

If you reduce your VGA, chipset and memory temperatures, that also will help clamp the CPU load value, and the ducting mod would help with all of it.

 

[akira34]

BonzaiDuck, now that you've mentioned duckting and the XP-120 together, you've got me thinking about trying it out in my V1100 case... Problem is, should I duckt out or in? I've got the fan flipped (sucking, not blowing) and it seems to be doing a bit better at cooling the processor. The case temps are better, by a few C, at least. Inside my case, besides the normal drives and such, I only have the 6800GT (AC cooler on it, venting out ) and a tv runer card (second PCI slot from the top, I have the USB ports PCI item in the very top slot cover). Do you think that putting the ducting so that it vents out through the unused PCI slots would be good, or would it be better to try and pull cool air in from the front of the case? I could probably pull in from the rear as well, since the PSU is on the bottom and the case fan vents down (look at the pictures for the V1100, it will show the noise deflector that I have in place). I also wish I could find the spec's for the case fans that came installed in the case. That way, I might be able to get higher CFM (at same dbA level) fans to install and improve the amount of air moving through the case.

Still, I'm running (at almost idle, since WMCE05's Media Center is running) 34C on the processor and 31C on the mobo. I turned on the cool and quiet aspect of the bios, which means the fan on the processor is spinning slower (less noise )... I just wish I could get it to run cooler at either the same noise level now, or even lower.

 

[BonzaiDuck]

Akira34 --

This ducting mod idea was first posted here -- I think it was late November or early December -- by "Sentinel". The original web-page project explanation was provided by a guy named John Cinnamon. Let me look for the links, and I will post them here.

I'm not thumping my chest, because the whole thing is just common sense, but I had been discussing this idea with a friend in Albuquerque early last spring. The principle was to draw and control airflow so severely that it moved over all the "hot" motherboard components to be immediately sucked out by exhaust fans.

Another project of a similar sort involved your "fan-reversal", but used the Zalman CNPS-7000-Cu CPU cooler. It involved the design of a top-shaped duct (the tapered, cement-mixer shape) with the narrow end fitting down onto the Zalman heatsink base with just enough clearance to suck air through the Zalman's "flower-petal" fins. It restricted the flow of that air by wrapping the sleeve of a rubber dishwashing glove around the outer edges of those fins, so that air only came in from the top of the fins and the narrow apertures where the fins mated with the heatsink base. The air was then drawn across the center of the heatsink base and up through the duct where it was forced out the case rear with a low-rpm 80mm fan (built into the "wide" end of the foam duct and at right angles to the tapered part).

I'm not confident that just channeling the air out vacant PCI slots will promote this ducted cooling effect. The strategy of the Cinnamon and "Sentinel" design has front intake fans increasing cold-air pressure inside the case, and the CPU fan than sucks this air past the ducting panel, where it is channeled over the motherboard (chipset and memory modules), and then ducted to exhaust fan(s) to be expelled from the case. If the duct "leaks", it should preferably leak in one direction, with additional cold air from the case interior being sucked through the cracks and apertures and drawn out by the exhaust fans with the air from the CPU cooler.

I think any solution where you could get fans to work in series and channel the air over the hot components would work, whether you expel air from the top of the CPU cooler or from the bottom. I just think it is easier to make it work by blowing air onto the cooler rather than drawing it off the cooler's heatsink-base.

Also -- the "flatter" the CPU cooler for a simple ducting mod, the more effective will be air-restriction over the motherboard to force air past the hot components. In my case, the XP120 and the "top" of the 120x38mm fan sit about 4-inches off the motherboard. The tops of the memory modules are about and inch-and-a-half from the motherboard surface. I also think that the more effective the CPU cooler, the more marginal will be the improvements through ducting to the CPU temperatures, but the improvement in chipset and other temperatures will still be the same. Even so, I think I get at least a 2C drop in CPU temperature through ducting, and I'm also convinced that it really helps with noise. I keep thinking that "for show" -- I'd like to do the duct construction in Lexan or plexi-glass (imagine how it would look with blue-LEDs), but the art-board foam really cuts the noise.

I have a picture of my foam-board mod, and could post it here with some guidance. As opposed to the advice from Sentinel -- who suggested that stripping a 1/16" strip of paper backing along a bend-line in the board assisted in making bends and creases in it and that it was most desireable to make a "single-piece" duct -- I made mine in three-pieces: a "box-shaped" hood to cover the exhaust fans; an L-shaped panel that mates with that box and joins it with a third piece -- the "flat" panel which surrounds the CPU fan. At the corners, I used small pieces of velcro to secure the duct so that the "box" sticks on the bottom of my PSU, and the additional pieces become a single rigid unit with the velcro ties. It is not a lot of trouble to break the velcro tabs apart to remove the duct.

I had to do this because my two 92mm exhaust fans are not arrayed vertically, as with the exhaust fans in some of the newer cases, but they are horizontal -- above the mobo and just below the PSU. Other cases and fan-deployments will make the ducting easier to design.

In cases where the duct sits "high" off the motherboard like mine, I think that the main panel can be made more "restrictive" to air-flow (increasing the velocity of air drawn over the mobo components) by simply pasting or laminating pieces of foam board at strategic points. The material is super-light, and puts no stress whatsoever on either the CPU cooler or the graphics card -- or anything else. And since it doesn't have much "heat-capacity" there is no reason why it can't be used to fill dead space as a means of further channeling air-flow.

 

[akira34]

While reading all that (need a drink now) I was thinking... How do you think a 'simple' duct to just ove the air closer to the exhaust fan would work? Since I already have the fan on the XP-120 blowing up, if I was to 'duckt' it so that it is more directed towards the rear fan, it might do better at keeping everything cool. The fan I'm using is a 120x25mm model, which I like. I would stop the duckting shy of the exhaust fan, so that it can still pull air from inside the case. Since my video card also has a venting cooler on it, that should help take up some of the leftover warm air inside the case. It's either that, or make a duckt to push the air from the processor into the PSU chamber of my case. I really don't like that idea too much...

I'll have to take a look inside the case tomorrow after work and see what I can think up... I think that there are some vent holes above the PCI slots, so I could (in theory) make the duckt go to those to vent out. OR, attach a quiet fan to them to help pull some more air out. I would get the quietest fan made to go there. Even then, I'd probably control it so that it spins at under 50% (probably won't hear it at that point). I don't want to cut up my case AT ALL here, so it all has to be done easily.

If you're willing, can you shoot me a PM with an email address I can reach you at and send images (of the case) to?

 

[BonzaiDuck]

All I can offer to that is my experience with prototyping the duct for my particular exhaust fans. Instead of the partial solution you suggest -- a shroud which channels air across the motherboard to the CPU cooler to be blown out the cooler's fins -- I tried just the fan-box and duct-panel without the "flat-panel" covering the mobo -- and I still got a drop of 2C in the CPU temperature!!

I think if you are going to try that -- what you have in mind -- it would be even better if you could channel the exhaust from the top of the CPU fan and vent it directly out the case. The more I think of your idea -- it sounds very effective, because you'd be drawing air across the motherboard from all four corners. If you can channel the CPU fan-exhaust, there will be no way for the exhaust to mix with the air in the rest of the case -- which is the reservoir from which you are drawing the ducted air to begin with.

The more I think about it, you could probably almost convert every fan in the system except the PSU fans to intake. The air would all converge on the CPU heatsink, and get blown out the case as exhaust.

The only problem I have with that idea -- in my "case" (pun) -- my exhaust fans are right next to my PSU exhaust, and I would be recycling some of the hotter PSU exhaust back into the case.

Make sure you filter all the intakes. Otherwise, cruft is going to collect at the bottom of your CPU heatsink instead of the top.

 

[akira34]

I think I'll need to take some pictures of what's inside my rig now... That way, there's no confusion as to what can go where. I'll probably need to take some measurements as well so that I can do up a fairly accurate drawing of the insides and then figure out what can go where. As it stands, I'm NOT going to cut any holes (of any kind) in my case. So everything needs to work with the case in it's original/stock configuration. That's probably going to be the biggest challenge.

I could set the small, top of the PCI slots, fan to intake, to pull in cooler outside air (will check the air back there to see what it's running, might be as warm as inside the case since that's where it's all venting to). Or, I might be able to install a fan in the unused drive bay on the front of the case (same section that the mobo is in, not the part where the drives and PSU reside) to pull in air. Perhaps the fan above the PCI slots, set to exhaust, with the processor fan ducted to it would work better... That way, the processor fan is pushing air up, while the rear fan it's connected to is pulling from it, helping to move the air out. With my fan sizes, where it all needs to go, and such, I might end up using flex tubing for the air directing... I'll need to fashion an adapter (or two) to go from the 120mm fan on the processor to whatever size fits on the rear of the case. I'll probably get a silent (or as close to it as possible) 80mm fan (if that will even fit) and put that above the PCI slots. Even if I need to use an adapter to get it to mount, that would be alright (such as one of the acrylic 60mm to 80mm adapters). I don't even think I'll need to have either fan moving too fast/loud since they will work with each other to move the air out. I could even try reversing them to pull in more outside air and push that over the heatsink (will probably try the blow option again with this).

I really need to take the measurements and pictures before I can go any further with this... If it works in prototype, I might get a machine shop to make up a finished product for me. Then if that really works, I'll might have to offer it up as a mod...

 

[Spike]

Originally posted by: akira34
I think I'll need to take some pictures of what's inside my rig now... That way, there's no confusion as to what can go where. I'll probably need to take some measurements as well so that I can do up a fairly accurate drawing of the insides and then figure out what can go where. As it stands, I'm NOT going to cut any holes (of any kind) in my case. So everything needs to work with the case in it's original/stock configuration. That's probably going to be the biggest challenge.

I could set the small, top of the PCI slots, fan to intake, to pull in cooler outside air (will check the air back there to see what it's running, might be as warm as inside the case since that's where it's all venting to). Or, I might be able to install a fan in the unused drive bay on the front of the case (same section that the mobo is in, not the part where the drives and PSU reside) to pull in air. Perhaps the fan above the PCI slots, set to exhaust, with the processor fan ducted to it would work better... That way, the processor fan is pushing air up, while the rear fan it's connected to is pulling from it, helping to move the air out. With my fan sizes, where it all needs to go, and such, I might end up using flex tubing for the air directing... I'll need to fashion an adapter (or two) to go from the 120mm fan on the processor to whatever size fits on the rear of the case. I'll probably get a silent (or as close to it as possible) 80mm fan (if that will even fit) and put that above the PCI slots. Even if I need to use an adapter to get it to mount, that would be alright (such as one of the acrylic 60mm to 80mm adapters). I don't even think I'll need to have either fan moving too fast/loud since they will work with each other to move the air out. I could even try reversing them to pull in more outside air and push that over the heatsink (will probably try the blow option again with this).

I really need to take the measurements and pictures before I can go any further with this... If it works in prototype, I might get a machine shop to make up a finished product for me. Then if that really works, I'll might have to offer it up as a mod...

I have thought about doing that same mod in my case. Adding a duct directly from my sucking CPU to my exhaust fan. One thing I might try is cutting a hole in the side of my case (in the window of my super-lanboy) and ducting my CPU to another low speed fan (or just a hole) in the side of my case. That way my rear 120mm exhaust still works for the case, but my CPU sends all of it's warm air directly out of the case... hmmm... this just might work...

-spike

 

[akira34]

I'm looking to do mine with no cutting to the case... That's going to be the biggest challenge of all. Especially since I don't have a cheap-assed case with some stinkin window in it... :shocked: Windows in computers are like screen doors in place of hatches in submarines... :shocked:

 

[Spike]

Originally posted by: akira34
I'm looking to do mine with no cutting to the case... That's going to be the biggest challenge of all. Especially since I don't have a cheap-assed case with some stinkin window in it... :shocked: Windows in computers are like screen doors in place of hatches in submarines... :shocked:

Actually windows in computers are like safety guages in that same said submarine, it is nice to be able to see that your fans are always spinning. Also since my case does not look like a birds nest inside it is nice to let others view my beautiful cable job.

I don't think I would call a Superlanboy a "cheap" case but then again I did not blow $200 plus on an overprice Lian-Li. Besides, the window means it is easy to cut some venting in, I honestly don't know how you are going to duct mod the way you want to succesfully without a little case cutting. Good luck to you...

-spike

 

[akira34]

The devil is in the details...

A window would be 100% useless to me with my case. Even if I could get one, it wouldn't show anything to anyone. Partially becuase of where my case sits, and where the mobo is placed in the Lian-Li case. Inside the case, it's on the opposite side to other cases. Then where I have the computer is to the right of where I sit, with that side up against the side of my desk (open design, no storage drawers).

I have some ideas as to how to get the duckting to work without cutting or even drilling the case. I need to open it up when I'm not recording a show, take some pictures and measurements and start working on the drawings/plans. I won't even start to put something together until I'm sure that it will work on paper. Then I'll mock it up with cheap materials (I have some art board leftover that I can use) and then see how that works. If it works well, or the design does, I can do a prototype out of something more sturdy. Once that's all set, I'll be contacting some machine shops to get a real prototype made to test out. I'm not looking to have this done in a day or two. I'd be happy if I was ready for the machine shop in under a month. Of course, I also might contact a sign shop and get some lexan formed for it... At least for the prototype, so that I can see how the air moves within it and alter the design accordingly.

 

[AlpooplA]

I too woull be interested in some sort of list on optimal and accepted temperature levels for various CPU's. Here are my readings so you can compare.

Currently, on non overclocked AMD64 3000 S939 retail box+fan I am now seeing temp readings between 45-55 C.

I was getting 70-95C (Yes, it shutdown) temperatures until I finally wiped off most of the thermal paste (I had purchased a CPU/MOBO combo where they installed the CPU)

 

[akira34]

Originally posted by: AlpooplA
I too woull be interested in some sort of list on optimal and accepted temperature levels for various CPU's. Here are my readings so you can compare.

Currently, on non overclocked AMD64 3000 S939 retail box+fan I am now seeing temp readings between 45-55 C.

I was getting 70-95C (Yes, it shutdown) temperatures until I finally wiped off most of the thermal paste (I had purchased a CPU/MOBO combo where they installed the CPU)

MAYBE people will now see why I never advise getting the combo's... The ONLY time (just once) that I had a system shutdown from heat was when the fan actually wasn't plugged in. It was very late when I was finishing up, and I didn't put the mobo connected on properly... Opened up the case, put the connection on properly, and temps were fine.

For a non overcocked 939 pin (13 micron or 90nm?) your idle temps sound high to me... Then again, if my idle temps were to reach 40C I'd be checking to see if all the fans were spinning... Yeah, I'm insane when it comes to the temps inside my computer... I want lower damnit, LOWER I say... I want the case AT ambient and the processor to idle at no more than 5C over that.