secretanchitman
Diamond Member
- Apr 11, 2001
- 9,352
- 23
- 91
i dunno...im kind of skeptical about that mobo you have linked....i'd rather just go skulltrail and get 16GB of ram. and yes, skulltrail uses xeons.
i dunno...im kind of skeptical about that mobo you have linked....i'd rather just go skulltrail and get 16GB of ram. and yes, skulltrail uses xeons.
IMO Don't get Skulltrail, there's other server boards that are cheaper and will give you the same performance when you're not overclocking.
Time for a little review ...
QX9770 = 45nm
E5472 = 45nm
Is 45nm 'optimization' on the 'road map' within your contract time frame ??
I will assume there may be some level of optimizations for 2nd Gen Optys. Is there the potential to optimize for K10 SSE128 ??
From Anand: raw floating-point power
Without getting knee-deep into thru-put, latency, DDR2 800 / FBDIMMS, etc ...
Performance will not scale 1:1 with clock speed. There is a definite point of diminishing returns where 30% in clock speed will only result in a 10% increase in performance. As IDK pointed out, your 'presentation' to the bossman regarding the new hardware should at least acknowledge this in some way ...
NOW ... the 'Core' issue ...
I gathered a desire from you to move to 8 cores / 2p - First off, any consideration to overclocking should be dropped.
The questions to your software engineers then become: All things being generally equal how is my performance going to scale going from 4 cores to 8 cores? Will the performance gains seen from 4 -> 8 cores be replicated in going from 8 -> 16 cores?
What level of parallelization will apply in the future? Do you anticipate threading the software in the future to scale performance in a linear fashion to 32 cores?
How do the optimizations for the intel platform weigh against parallelization of cores? Will 3rd Gen Opty SSE128s see a benefit from the intel platform optimizations?
Software engineers love questions like this - lol.
Even though today this decision regards hardware for you, this is also a decision regarding the organization 6 - 18 - 24 months from now. Your hardware may be the 'guinea pig' for paralellization while increasing your productivity.
Probably the most important question. Will your Bossman know what the Hell you are talking about?
QX9770 = 45nm
E5472 = 45nm
Is 45nm 'optimization' on the 'road map' within your contract time frame ??
I will assume there may be some level of optimizations for 2nd Gen Optys. Is there the potential to optimize for K10 SSE128 ??
From Anand: raw floating-point power
Without getting knee-deep into thru-put, latency, DDR2 800 / FBDIMMS, etc ...
Performance will not scale 1:1 with clock speed. There is a definite point of diminishing returns where 30% in clock speed will only result in a 10% increase in performance. As IDK pointed out, your 'presentation' to the bossman regarding the new hardware should at least acknowledge this in some way ...
NOW ... the 'Core' issue ...
I gathered a desire from you to move to 8 cores / 2p - First off, any consideration to overclocking should be dropped.
The questions to your software engineers then become: All things being generally equal how is my performance going to scale going from 4 cores to 8 cores? Will the performance gains seen from 4 -> 8 cores be replicated in going from 8 -> 16 cores?
What level of parallelization will apply in the future? Do you anticipate threading the software in the future to scale performance in a linear fashion to 32 cores?
How do the optimizations for the intel platform weigh against parallelization of cores? Will 3rd Gen Opty SSE128s see a benefit from the intel platform optimizations?
Software engineers love questions like this - lol.
Even though today this decision regards hardware for you, this is also a decision regarding the organization 6 - 18 - 24 months from now. Your hardware may be the 'guinea pig' for paralellization while increasing your productivity.
Probably the most important question. Will your Bossman know what the Hell you are talking about?
To be frank, you are in way over your head.
If your line of work is mission critical, 0.001% rejection rate stuff, and you are facing such a mountain of ignorance on your own part regarding what you need and what you can't afford to have in your box undermining your results, then you are really setting yourself up to screw the pooch here.
Do you really think that of all the variables you are introducing into the picture here by randomly throwing sh!t into a box and calling a teh workstation that using non-XEON parts is going to be the mistake you made when you look back on the situation?
Your choice of non-certified non-pretested RAM (in your specific workstation build) is going to introduce more stability variability than anything a non-XEON would introduce over a XEON.
If the prospects of having system stability from non-XEON parts is causing you to get a little weak-in-the-knees then you need to seriously wise-up, recognize that you need to get a job done and leave the hobby builds to your own budget and recreation time, and go buy yourself a freaken workstation built to deliver the stability you so are afraid non-XEONs will rob from you.
There is a time and place to recognize your employer deserves quality results from a skilled craftsman, you are good at what you do, leave the workstation system builds to the experts. IMO.
Wow, way to jump down my throat for asking. I'm pretty sure I asked in the first post if a pre-build would be a better choice. As for the ram, I'm pretty sure I didn't even mention any ram choices yet so, where did you even come up with me choosing any ram? And I'm not attempting to randomly throw anything in a box, this threads sole purpose was to pick a cpu and possibly a platform based around that CPU choice. I've got more than a month to plan this build as it only has to be assembled and over to the software guys by may 31st, as I mentioned earlier. I know I'm in over my head in choosing parts here, thats why I'm asking.
I still see no reason to go buy a "skulltrail" system that is nothing more than a re-labeled workstation board being marketed to enthusiasts. I'd be more comfortable with Xeons for a performance standpoint as I know for a fact that the pre-fetchers are programmed differently and the software I'm working with has been optimized for xeons. If you don't forsee a performance issue by introducing enthusiast processors into a workstation environment maybe I'm not the only ignorant person here.
Can I ask why you think an enthusiast board based on the same chipset would be better choice than a purpose built workstation board?
I believe the original reason skulltrail was introduced into this thread was because of SLI. You can't run GeForce SLI on a non-skulltrail multi-processor mobo. But, if you get Quadros instead, then there is no issue. It is probably wise to go with quadros anyway, since they are intended for this kind of work.
So far I believe we have concluded:
1) OC is out of the question (duh)
2) Intel Xeons are probably the better bet, although if the software engineers say parallelization and memory bandwidth is extremely important, then Opterons may be competitive. This also depends on what optimizations they've made.
3) IMO it seems like you should get a pre-built... if nothing else because if it fails you'll have someone else to blame.
You said you are running simulation software, right? Just intuitively I'd think you'd have a large working set, so memory would matter a lot (although size might matter more than speed).
Honestly, with your budget, I think you could go for a 4 processor system without sweating it.
These guys seem to build workstations in your price range: http://www.scalableinformatics.com/products/pegasus
Only 2-processor setups here:
http://www.microway.com/whispe...on/whisperstation.html
These guys seems to offer workstations in your performance range, including 16-core systems with SLI:
http://www.verari.com/index.asp
Up to 2-processors:
http://www.wsm.com/products/products_workstations.html
HP and Dell don't have any pre-built workstations that match the level of performance you want, but I didn't look into whether they will custom build stuff for you.
So far I believe we have concluded:
1) OC is out of the question (duh)
2) Intel Xeons are probably the better bet, although if the software engineers say parallelization and memory bandwidth is extremely important, then Opterons may be competitive. This also depends on what optimizations they've made.
3) IMO it seems like you should get a pre-built... if nothing else because if it fails you'll have someone else to blame.
You said you are running simulation software, right? Just intuitively I'd think you'd have a large working set, so memory would matter a lot (although size might matter more than speed).
Honestly, with your budget, I think you could go for a 4 processor system without sweating it.
These guys seem to build workstations in your price range: http://www.scalableinformatics.com/products/pegasus
Only 2-processor setups here:
http://www.microway.com/whispe...on/whisperstation.html
These guys seems to offer workstations in your performance range, including 16-core systems with SLI:
http://www.verari.com/index.asp
Up to 2-processors:
http://www.wsm.com/products/products_workstations.html
HP and Dell don't have any pre-built workstations that match the level of performance you want, but I didn't look into whether they will custom build stuff for you.
I don't remember mentioning SLI is all. I was originally going to go with FireGL's as thats what I have now and am happy but, that'll be for another time in another thread.
Thanks for all the links to pre-builts. it's really looking like a pre-built is the way to go, if for no other reason that to fore-go making any more threads
Again, thanks for all the links, I've got some homework to do on new vendors now.
I wasn't trying to rain on your parade dude, there's no pleasure in this for me, sorry if my advice was not what you wanted to hear.
Pre-builts do more than just take a random build parts and assemble them (well the ones you should buy won't be)...they will have pre-tested the fully loaded operating characteristics of the system (already built) to ensure there are no unforseen quirks and hiccups with the parts.
RAM is a big part of this. The pre-builders spend big $$ pre-screening ram and burning it into each system to ensure your system stability isn't compromised by ever so subtle ram incompatibilities.
This is not too different from what Apple does with Mac...they have stated they limit the number of variables that can effect stability by only mixing and matching a small sub-set of available hardware from the open market.
No one here is going to be able to tell you what dual-socket mobos are crap versus any good, except for skulltrail as we have review data on that mobo to speak to. We don't have review data for anything else, just specs. You don't want to just rely on specs to speak to your system stability when you are done "throwing" all manner of random (i.e. not pre-tested to operate together in full load environment) computer parts from CPU to PSU to RAM to Mobo to GPU...etc.
This is not a critique of your computer skills, this is simply advice that compared to the experts who build these things (workstations) for a living surely you would acknowledge you are ignorant of what all it takes to build a quality workstation...and you seem pretty confident you NEED a quality workstation to ensure the quality of your computational results.
+1 for # 3 ...
That being said, though you may be doing rocket science your hardware build is not that complicated. As IDK said 'off the shelf' is not how an enterprise system comes together.
You have to specificly follow all 'vendor recommendations'. When they recommend power supplies, cases, ram and peripherals that ain't 'bovine excrement'. It's pretty much a requirement.
Commit the hardware manuals to memory. Know the BIOS optimum settings for memory management and performance. Properly install and configure all drivers and hardware monitoring software ...
And most importantly, if you don't know, do not be afraid to ask a question.
And finally, how can I put a bid in on those surplus Opty 285s ??
Originally posted by: lopri
Very good idea. QuadroPlex recently dropped in price. Lowest model begins now just at $10.7K.
I can't find it now (being dyslexic at the moment) but I seem to have read someone mentioned FB-DIMM with CL3? Such thing exist?
Francois Piednoel (skulltrail project manager) said DDR2-800 at CAS3 for FB-DIMM was available for Skulltrail (and presumably any other FBDIMM capable mobo).
He said it on one of the forums, XS or Aceshardware, that Kingston has samples to him already with CL3 at DDR2-800.
Didn't mean to snap IDK. I was having a really bad night last night. I do apologize. I appreciate teh advise. Especially that last post. Sh!t would just not work last night and I was getting really frustrated.
I like the looks of that Quadroplex, seems like it fits the bill nicely and $700 over budget is something I could handle out-of-pocket if it's going to work well for me. I just shot an e-mail over to the software guys to see what they think of it.
@ BadRobot, I have a BSEE thats about 30 years old. I can honestly say though, I've learned a lot more in the journey to where I am today than I could have ever learned in school that long ago.
I like the looks of that Quadroplex, seems like it fits the bill nicely and $700 over budget is something I could handle out-of-pocket if it's going to work well for me. I just shot an e-mail over to the software guys to see what they think of it.
@ BadRobot, I have a BSEE thats about 30 years old. I can honestly say though, I've learned a lot more in the journey to where I am today than I could have ever learned in school that long ago.
Can't really say due to a confidentiality agreement but, I have worked for hughes missle system, boing and northrop grumman in the past.
I was going to say it sounded like like you had worked in the Aero industry at some point if not right now. Kind of why I was asking what degree you have, cause I am debating what i should get my bachelor/masters in.
Well, it depends a lot on what you want to end up doing. I'm doing combined electrical engineering and optical enginnering at the moment. The optics I picked up in the mid-late eighties after my project with hughes. I spent a few years working on Yag lasers for non-military and that was some of the funnest stuff I've worked on.
Its cool, I agree though that my post was way too pissy in attitude upon re-reading, honestly it was unintentional but I do read it now and think to myself "that just sounds rude, why did I write it like that?".
My choice of words were unfortunate, I think anyone would have taken offense to them so don't get down on yourself. I'll be more selective with wording my phrases in the future.
Do you need on-site / fast support if the system goes down? If so, you pretty much have to go with an OEM machine.
not really. I need it to just not go down, or have like 95% up time inside the two years I'll have it. after that it can burn itself to ash for all I care, it's not like I get to keep it. I know that's swinging for the fences but, given what Idontcare is saying, with the ammount of pre-testing and such that goes into these OEM system that doesn't seem too un-reasonable.
I know it feels like a cop-out when contemplating going with a DELL system...but their Precision Workstation line are advertised to meet the stability expectations you want:
The T7400 sports the features you want (dual socket, dual PCIe x16 graphics slots, DDR2-800 64GB ram capable, etc)
T7400 Specs
For $7,000 you can get dual 3.2GHz XEONs (X5482), dual quadro FX1700, 4GB DDR2-800 FBDIMM (needed for 1600MHz FSB)...leaving $3k for you to boost up your hard-drive array config and flat panel situation (or buy even beefier Quadros).
You get 3yrs of next-day on-site technical support (nice).
The T7400 sports the features you want (dual socket, dual PCIe x16 graphics slots, DDR2-800 64GB ram capable, etc)
T7400 Specs
For $7,000 you can get dual 3.2GHz XEONs (X5482), dual quadro FX1700, 4GB DDR2-800 FBDIMM (needed for 1600MHz FSB)...leaving $3k for you to boost up your hard-drive array config and flat panel situation (or buy even beefier Quadros).
You get 3yrs of next-day on-site technical support (nice).
Interesting system, interesting thread!
One idea which I have in mind after reading through it: from what you say it sounds like you have to wait for the results of the computations until you can continue working? And therefore you need maximum performance in one box, because the software is multi threaded but the tasks can not be split among several loosely coupled machines? (i.e. a cluster with GBit ethernet)
If I'm wrong in any of the points above you could do all kinds of funny things like ordering 3 boxes with 2 2GHz quads each (for the pure calculations) or you could use 2 machines in parallel for the editing, i.e. your old one and a new one or 2 somewhat smaller new ones.
Regards, MrS
PS @Idontcare & derwen: nice to see an argument being settled like it should be done among grown-up people. A refreshing change
One idea which I have in mind after reading through it: from what you say it sounds like you have to wait for the results of the computations until you can continue working? And therefore you need maximum performance in one box, because the software is multi threaded but the tasks can not be split among several loosely coupled machines? (i.e. a cluster with GBit ethernet)
If I'm wrong in any of the points above you could do all kinds of funny things like ordering 3 boxes with 2 2GHz quads each (for the pure calculations) or you could use 2 machines in parallel for the editing, i.e. your old one and a new one or 2 somewhat smaller new ones.
Regards, MrS
PS @Idontcare & derwen: nice to see an argument being settled like it should be done among grown-up people. A refreshing change
Dude, a dell? lol. I'm off tonight and tomorrow night so I'll have to interrogate my software guys further on friday night. All in all, I think my best bet is that Nvidia system so far. Plus it looks pretty bitchin and thats always good.
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