CPU melt-down, what to do?

[maniac5999]

So, about a year ago I bought one of the OEM Phenom II 940 BEs when they first started selling for $99 to replace my Kuma 7750. I went thru 2 of them, RMAing the first after testing it, and found both of them to be crap. neither would overclock for anything, and they both were barely stable at the stock clocks and voltage. They both also seemed to run really hot, exceding 65* even at stock on my "ASRock A780 FullHD" board with my Sunbeam CCF120 cooler. Given that even with 70*+ OCCT runs I wasn't getting shutdowns, I dismissed it as the board reporting the temp wrong.

About a month ago I started to get weird file corruptions and random reboots. Last week I checked the CPU--it would consistently fail OCCT in situations as poor as 2ghz and 1.4v. I've since pulled it and replaced it with the old Kuma (X2 @ 3.1ghz)

At this point I'm wondering what to do. The only CPU intensive task I do is game (mostly strategy--Civ5, SOSE etc. but I also just bought Crysis) I also live in NYC and pay over $0.25 per kilowatt, plus I normally have my desktop on/sleeping 24/7.

I HAD been planning to upgrade with either Ivy or Haswell, and to buy something along the lines of a 7870 when it came out, but this has thrown that into disarray. I have easy access to the North Jersey Microcenter, and could upgrade to an i5 2500k, but that would run me $350 counting board and RAM. they also sell a Phenom II 840 (3.2ghz PROPUS [really an Athlon2]) for $60, and a Phenom II 830 (2.8ghz with the full 6mb of L3) for $50.

My board will only go to a BCLK of 240, which would max the 830 at 3.36ghz. Is it worth it to hold me over to Haswell? Do you think I should go for one of the other options? I am an AMD stockholder, but I'm getting pretty P/O'd at them right now

 

[Cogman]

I hate you. Don't RMA stuff because it doesn't overclock. That is dishonest and it hurts the company that gave you a legitimately good product.

 

[Idontcare]

I hate you. Don't RMA stuff because it doesn't overclock. That is dishonest and it hurts the company that gave you a legitimately good product.

Cogman, RMA != fraud...unless the OP violated the RMA policies of the business he returned the product to.

Lots of businesses have 100% satisfaction guarantees which allows their customers to return products after using them no questions asked.

With etailers this is most commonly accompanied with a restocking fee. Open-box price discounts wouldn't exist were it not for RMA's.

Please don't assume that just because someone returns a CPU for reasons related to lack of overclocking headroom that they necessarily committed fraud or violated some moral/ethical boundary.

RMA's is a business decision that customers have the right to exercise.

I've personally RMA'ed plenty of products to Newegg (paying the shipping and restocking fees) once I had them in hand and realized they weren't what I wanted. Nothing dishonest about it.

 

[maniac5999]

I hate you. Don't RMA stuff because it doesn't overclock. That is dishonest and it hurts the company that gave you a legitimately good product.

Had it just not overclocked, I would have kept it. The issue with both of them was that they needed extra voltage beyond the default 1.35v to be stable at stock, and ran at or beyond their listed thermal limits even with cooling that was significantly better than it normally comes with (120mm tower cooler) I thought the first one was defective. when the second one performed the same, I assumed the board was just mis-reporting the temperature. In my defense, note that I did not keep RMAing despite the 2nd not being able to even hit 3.4ghz at the 1.5v "do not exceed" voltage.

 

[Lex Luger]

The only thing worth buying from AMD cpu division right now is Llano, so if you have to support AMD, that is what I would buy.

AMD stock shot up to 6 bucks or so recently, maybe you should be looking to sell your stock and use the money to buy a nice p67 and 2500k setup.

 

[maniac5999]

AMD stock shot up to 6 bucks or so recently, maybe you should be looking to sell your stock and use the money to buy a nice p67 and 2500k setup.

Recently being yesterday. It's down to 5.30 today. Old news is no news. ^_^

Anyway, for now I've eliminated getting a whole new 1155 platform. I've got better ways to spend the money. I've also found that there's a $10 off coupon on the 840(thanks Mloot), making either it or the 830 $50 at MC. The 830 is a C3 Deneb at 2.8Ghz, the 840 is a Propus at 3.2Ghz. Which is better for gaming? As an added twist A) my mobo maxes out at 240 BCLK which the Deneb should easily be able to handle, but which may be beyond the Propus's limits. B) the 830 (Deneb) isn't on the mobo's support list, but the 925 with the same exact numbers is. will I have problems trying to use the 830 on my board?

 

[wahdangun]

i think a Phenom II 830 is better for gaming because its have L3 chace


btw why don't you RMA'ed your CPU? isn't AMD have 3 years warranty ?

 

[SickBeast]

OP, a 3.3ghz Phenom II is decent for gaming in all current games aside from Starcraft 2. That said, it's not ideal and it's hard to predict how well it will hold up in coming years.

I'm doing fine with my Phenom II at 3.8ghz and I think it will last me for a least another year.

$50 is a nice price for those CPUs. It's just a shame that you can't try for 4ghz with them; there's a good chance that you could get there with the right motherboard and cooling.

 

[Mloot]

OP, a 3.3ghz Phenom II is decent for gaming in all current games aside from Starcraft 2. That said, it's not ideal and it's hard to predict how well it will hold up in coming years.

How do you think an 840 at 3.7-3.8 would compare to a Phenom II at 3.3 for gaming? I've read a few 840 reviews, and it seems most have been able to overclock to 3.7-3.9. Mine overclocked to 3.7 at stock voltage, with no other tweaks than raising my NB clock. Would the L3 cache of the 830 (running at 3.3) make it a better cpu for gaming than an 840 running 5-600mhz faster?

 

[boochi]

Did the OP ever think that the problem might be a POS sub $60 mobo?

 

[richierich1212]

I would think it's your mobo that's causing the problem.

 

[maniac5999]

Did the OP ever think that the problem might be a POS sub $60 mobo?

The Kuma is stable at stock, (as low as 1.16v, which is a lot less than the default 1.25) and at 3.1ghz at 1.32v, which is well within the range for the chips on SB700 Mobos (SB710 normally allows an extra 100-200mhz or so on the chips) Also, even according to the failed OCCT graphs, ripple on the 12v rail is only about 0.05V. So, no, based on experience form a different chip, I do not think the problem is the Mobo.

 

[Rifter]

I hate you. Don't RMA stuff because it doesn't overclock. That is dishonest and it hurts the company that gave you a legitimately good product.

I hate you for being a idiot, Dont jump on a guy unless you READ THE DAMN POST

Guess you missed the bolded below:

So, about a year ago I bought one of the OEM Phenom II 940 BEs when they first started selling for $99 to replace my Kuma 7750. I went thru 2 of them, RMAing the first after testing it, and found both of them to be crap. neither would overclock for anything, and they both were barely stable at the stock clocks and voltage. They both also seemed to run really hot, exceding 65* even at stock on my "ASRock A780 FullHD" board with my Sunbeam CCF120 cooler. Given that even with 70*+ OCCT runs I wasn't getting shutdowns, I dismissed it as the board reporting the temp wrong.

About a month ago I started to get weird file corruptions and random reboots. Last week I checked the CPU--it would consistently fail OCCT in situations as poor as 2ghz and 1.4v. I've since pulled it and replaced it with the old Kuma (X2 @ 3.1ghz)

At this point I'm wondering what to do. The only CPU intensive task I do is game (mostly strategy--Civ5, SOSE etc. but I also just bought Crysis) I also live in NYC and pay over $0.25 per kilowatt, plus I normally have my desktop on/sleeping 24/7.

I HAD been planning to upgrade with either Ivy or Haswell, and to buy something along the lines of a 7870 when it came out, but this has thrown that into disarray. I have easy access to the North Jersey Microcenter, and could upgrade to an i5 2500k, but that would run me $350 counting board and RAM. they also sell a Phenom II 840 (3.2ghz PROPUS [really an Athlon2]) for $60, and a Phenom II 830 (2.8ghz with the full 6mb of L3) for $50.

My board will only go to a BCLK of 240, which would max the 830 at 3.36ghz. Is it worth it to hold me over to Haswell? Do you think I should go for one of the other options? I am an AMD stockholder, but I'm getting pretty P/O'd at them right now

I guess underclocking and upping voltage is considered overclocking to you?

 

[Plimogz]

El-Cheapo PSU? Maybe weak Mobo?

found both of them to be crap. neither would overclock for anything, and they both were barely stable at the stock clocks and voltage. They both also seemed to run really hot, exceding 65* even at stock on my "ASRock A780 FullHD" board with my Sunbeam CCF120 cooler

I'm not sure what "barely stable" means. In any case, at stock clocks and volts, CPU's should be absolutely stable. If you feel that 2 consecutive 940's were not stable, I say look elsewhere for the cause, not at the chips themselves; odds are that they were not the problem.

I don't know what to make of your system failing with the 2GHz @ 1.4V 940BE, but being fine with a 3.1GHz 7750BE. Still, I'd look into doing some better troubleshooting than just blaming those 940s and going out and buying a new chip in hopes that everything will work out fine.

 

[maniac5999]

Barely stable means sometimes it would fail a 6 hour OCCT run, sometimes it wouldn't fail a 24 hour run. I put in some extra voltage (1.4v) to be on the safe side.

PSU is a Corsair 450VX, definately not a POS. The board may be a less expensive mATX model, but it got good reviews, and was stable for over a year with the Kuma before I put the P2 940 in. 90% of the time when it would fail OCCT, it wouldn't BSOD, and it would spit out temp/CPU usage/voltage graphs. Voltage was stable within about 0.025 of what was requested in BIOS at all times, and there didn't seem to be any correlation between peaks and valleys and errors. Also, the board is rated for the 140W Phenoms, so I doubt that a P2 is overly stressing the power circuitry.

Another datapoint is that the cheap OEM P2 940s were some of the very last AM2+ processors sold, came with a MUCH shorter warranty than the other 940s (30 days--one of the reasons I was trigger happy to return the first one) and got significantly worse reviews. What I suspect was that they used the SKU to clear out old inventory that was marginal, but that *technically* was good enough to be called a 940.

For all of the reasons above, I'm convinced that it is an issue with the CPU. What I really am looking to find out now is if a C3 Deneb at 3.36ghz is better than a Propus at 3.6-3.84ghz? If I will have any problems with the 830, since my board doesn't technically support it, but does support the 925, which is the exact same CPU with a different model number? and lastly, which of the above options is likely to be more energy efficient?

 

[Kristijonas]

I assume one of three things:
1) Someone technically illiterate installed your CPU+cooler
2) Your motherboard is shitty
3) Your PSU is shitty

The CPUs are rarely faulty.

 

[maniac5999]

I assume one of three things:
1) Someone technically illiterate installed your CPU+cooler
2) Your motherboard is shitty
3) Your PSU is shitty

The CPUs are rarely faulty.

Thank you, (and everyone else) who has offered this unconstructive comment. I've already explained that inserting another CPU causes the system to run flawlessly. I used to troubleshoot electromechanical systems in a past career, and one of the most basic rules of troubleshooting is that if you replace a part, and the problem goes away, 99% of the time, the part that you replaced was the broken one. As I said before, the current question is A) will the 830 run in my board despite not being "officially" supported, and if it does, what possible problems will I run into? B) for gaming, what's better? an extra 400mhz or 6mb L3?

 

[Uppsala9496]

You mentioned you have a microcenter nearby.
There are some pretty decent AMD deals there if the brand hasn't scared you away.

http://www.microcenter.com/specials/...ndlePROMO.html
You can get an X6 1090T with a cheapy mobo for $164.99.
If you go with the gigabyte board, you can get a $10 rebate.

Since it's AM3 you will need new RAM. Newegg has some pretty good deals going on.

Looks like your board can handle AM3. If you have DDR2 1066 memory, the 1055T might be worth it at $149. Sell the 'free' mobo to recoup some of the cost.

 

[xylem]

In echo of what others have stated, to get even a single processor that behaves like that, out of the box, is unlikely.. To get two in a row is nigh impossible.

The cause of overheating is most likely one, or a combination of, the following:

- Greatly insufficient case cooling;
- Improperly mounted heat-sink (and/or application of thermal paste, and/or fan operation);
- Motherboard feeding considerably more voltage to the CPU than specified.

Problems with overclocking, since those processors tend to do so fairly well and predictably, are most likely caused by:

- Motherboard issues with the CPU in question;
- The settings used to overclock;
- Incapable power supply.

 

[tweakboy]

I don't think he broke RMA by overclocking. I mean heck the settings are there and there is turbo auto OC.

This is not good if your getting corrupt files ? That sounds like a hard drive motherboard problem.

There is no way the CPU will corrupt your files no matter what you do.

Ok start over. Take off the CPU HSF clean it with alchohol let it dry then put Thermal paste one line or two line like a cross. Reseat the HSF and make sure its tight.

Now go to BIOS and make sure all settings are on AUTO. Boot up computer let me know whats happening. thx gl,

 

[maniac5999]

In echo of what others have stated, to get even a single processor that behaves like that, out of the box, is unlikely.. To get two in a row is nigh impossible.

The cause of overheating is most likely one, or a combination of, the following:

- Greatly insufficient case cooling;
- Improperly mounted heat-sink (and/or application of thermal paste, and/or fan operation);
- Motherboard feeding considerably more voltage to the CPU than specified.

Problems with overclocking, since those processors tend to do so fairly well and predictably, are most likely caused by:

- Motherboard issues with the CPU in question;
- The settings used to overclock;
- Incapable power supply.

*temperatures changed by under 5*C with the side panel off vs. on, i thought that it might be how the heatsink was mounted, so I re-mounted them multiple times. here are my threads chronicling my consistent problems with the CPU: http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2123905&highlight= http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2132074&highlight=
Multiple programs confirmed the voltages I was seeing, and the PSU is a high end 550W unit with the auto overvolt shutoff decreased, so I doubt I have any problems there.

Over time (and as winter changed into summer) I pulled all the way back to stock speeds to try to minimize the temperature, and to keep one step ahead of the BSODs. At this point I'm convinced the 940 is just a fancy paperweight, and I'm convinced that it needs to be replaced. I don't want to sink close to $200 into this platform at this time, at that point i might as well just go buy a 2500K, so i'm looking at the 830 or 840 as a budget stopgap for a year or two. I'm wondering which is better, and if the 830 is even likely to be compatible.

 

[Idontcare]

I don't think he broke RMA by overclocking. I mean heck the settings are there and there is turbo auto OC.

Sorry but no, we don't get to arbitrarily define for ourselves whether or not our actions (electing to OC, over-volt, or otherwise) are somehow justified based on our choosing to purchase additional hardware that makes it all the easier to effect our actions.

Whether or not he broke RMA is entirely dependent on the business agreement regarding what is categorized as acceptable RMA reasons (including its exclusions).

There is a difference and it is a critical one. Not all RMA's are acts of fraud, but the difference between fraud an no-fraud is not something the consumer gets to define, the business defines that.

The same is true of warranty fraud. I have returned mobo's for warranty repair after having killed them whilst overclocking them (FSB oc'ing), something that invalidated my warranty but I was upfront with the mobo maker (ASUS at the time) about the conditions under which the mobo died and they were the ones who instructed me to ship it to them for warranty servicing.

A key part of committing fraud is the act of deception, intentionally omitting certain details which might have a material impact on the decision by the RMA'ing party to accept or deny the RMA request.

Unless the OP admits to being deceptive, or gives us info regarding the RMA policies of the business itself which would prove out an argument that he committed RMA fraud, there are no grounds to make an accusation of RMA fraud, nor is there any evidence to make the case that there wasn't RMA fraud (deception in details of the conditions of use of the product) afoot.

In short, no one here has anything to go on except to simply take the OP at his word that he did not commit RMA fraud.

 

[Idontcare]

This is not good if your getting corrupt files ? That sounds like a hard drive motherboard problem.

There is no way the CPU will corrupt your files no matter what you do.

Oh really? So all those times where I borked my OS install because I was attempting to use an unstable OC'ed CPU during the installation was for some other reason then?

 

[maniac5999]

Sorry but no, we don't get to arbitrarily define for ourselves whether or not our actions (electing to OC, over-volt, or otherwise) are somehow justified based on our choosing to purchase additional hardware that makes it all the easier to effect our actions.

Whether or not he broke RMA is entirely dependent on the business agreement regarding what is categorized as acceptable RMA reasons (including its exclusions).
....[snip]....
In short, no one here has anything to go on except to simply take the OP at his word that he did not commit RMA fraud.

For what it's worth, I bought the CPU from Newegg, and appear to have abided by their RMA rules: http://www.newegg.com/HelpInfo/ReturnPolicy.aspx

Anyway, back on topic, can ANYONE weigh in on the Phenom II 830 vs. 840? Does anyone have any idea if I can even use the 830? it's not listed as supported, but the 925, which has the exact same specs is.

 

[deimos3428]

one of the most basic rules of troubleshooting is that if you replace a part, and the problem goes away, 99% of the time, the part that you replaced was the broken one.

Or there's some sort of incompatibility with that part and the rest of the system.

Have you updated the mobo to the latest BIOS release? You need P1.30 or higher if I'm not mistaken for the PhII 940. (Some Kumas will run with 1.20 or 1.10...)