CPU BURN-IN

brazzmunk

Member
Jan 6, 2005
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i've read couple threads about this and wanted to get more detail about this...
how does it work and what is the end result.. it seems all too good to be true (the CPU burn in that is) :)
 

GML3G0

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2005
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o0o00 damn, this program sounds awsome. looks like i will be able to pump out 2.6GHz+ out of this damn CPU. Running is as we speak.
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
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The science does not make sense and even c[pu designers in this forum have said this is a myth...Intel and AMD test these chips on levels of stress we cannot even duplicate.....

I am wondering if there are other factors at work here...

I may try it but I stress my system far most then most do in here...My systems pass 24+ hours of prime....then run 1 week solid of FH....I dont know but I may very well have done more then cpu burn does anyways.....

Like I said this has been discussed before and the science and the logic of it has been questioned.....I find it hard to believe as well....I hope as soom were elluding in there that they have not somehow damaged or made the system less stable in the long run.....
 

GML3G0

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2005
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idk, but this program seems to actually work. i changed absolutely nothing except the vcore. needed 1.55 vcore to stay stable at 2.4GHz. followed the steps mentioned at that forum and ran the program at 1.475. prior to running it, at 1.475 vcore, prime crashed in under a minute. now it has been running ober 10 minutes at the vcore after running CPU burn in for only 4 hours. i haven't run prime any longer because I stopped it for lack of time.

Duvie, are you saying that the program may have adverse effects on the CPU and actually decrease its stability?
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
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Read all the pages and there are some hints of "weird" issues that arise....There also seems to be some threads talking about reversing the effects....

i am just wondering since the science seems flawed if we really think we are doing what we are doing here.....

I am going to try it but like I have always said....

A cpu that fails in under 30 minutes or so may need up to .075 to .05v more of vocre....
A cpu that fails in under an hour but more the 30 minutes needs up to .05v more of vcore...

A cpu that fails in under 2 hours but more then an hour may need .05 to .025v more of vcore...
A cpu that fails in under 4 hours but more then 2 hours may need only .025v more of vcore....

I have never seen one of my ssyteme fail in under 24 hours if it passed 4 hours....

I would say reserve judgment if you can get to that 30minute to 1 hour mark...otherwise you are still looking at same level of vcore likley needed to become 24 hour prime stable.....
 

Sentential

Senior member
Feb 28, 2005
677
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Very true. However if its done right and if you starve the CPU enough it will respond. It mostly lies on the user to do it correctally. I personally have seen considerable gains but as you said earlier; it is all reletive ;) On average I tend to squeeze anywhere from 50-250mhz depending on the CPU.

Right now Ive gained about 120 from my Prescott.
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
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How much out of the A64????


You know you will get the Intel designers in here tell you this doesn't exist....I will find you the official PM response to this.....I would tend to believe him, and then go on to think somehitng else is happeing here making the difference....
 

DrMrLordX

Lifer
Apr 27, 2000
22,972
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Hey, if the Intel designers show up to post, all the better.

EDIT: Wobble, thanks for that link, I just noticed it after I posted. It seems the Intel engineer who wrote that piece is referring to a different burn-in technique than the one advocated by Sentinel(linked above). Namely, Sentinel's technique seems to center around lowering the voltage to a barely-stable point and running a burn-in program. The Intel engineer is referring to a burn-in technique that seems to center around boosting the vcore while at lower clock speeds and burning it in at those levels.

At the very least, Sentinel's technique seems less likely to cause damage to the CPU.

 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
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The burn-in does likely nothing to the CPU itself, but it DOES set the HS compound to better contact the HS and transfer heat more efficiently. This in itself is likely the best argument for a burn-in. I have always done burn-ins to set the compound faster. I truly don't believe that it affects the CPU itself much, if at all...
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
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I ran my system at 2.6ghzx with oly 1.42v to a point where it would error out in 11 minutes on prime95...i know this is pirme95 (62 hours) stable but with 1.47-1.48v....it failed in 11 minutes.... I ran burn in for 4 hours and now it lasted 21 minutes...NOt much of an improvement for me....still needs the .06v to get stable to the levels I need...

Maybe I will drop the vcore to 1.4v now and try it again.....or....raise the fsb up one to two notches and run cpuburn again for 4 hours...and then drop back to here nd run the prime95 again...
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
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The biggest problem is that this app does not generate enough heat and my paste has been in place for over 2 months...so it is set...I have also in that time "burned" in that paste on more then a few occasions with 2 weeks plus of FH....4-5 times of prime95 at periods greater then 24 hours.....
 

Ackbar

Senior member
Dec 18, 2004
391
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I personally will not necessarily believe CPU burn-in until I see it, but I just wanted to point out one thing:
"There is no practical physical method that could cause a CPU to speed up after being run at an elevated voltage for an extended period of time." -Anandtech article from Intel engineer

The method being proposed by Sen is to actually undervolt the CPU, so the direct comparison can't be made between the two methods except to unless one says that ANY type of burn-in does not work.

From the OCZ VX, we know that burn-in does work on some types of RAM. I am not an electrical engineer, so I won't profess that I fully understand why this works in some RAM but not CPUs, but we should at least keep an open mind. As far as I'm concerned, I'm not convinced, but I'm trying it right now. I don't think there's any harm in trying. :D
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
7,419
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I can't see this could possibly help, but undervolting certainly doesn't hurt anything (aside from the mild possibility of HD corruption if the operating frequency isn't correspondingly reduced). I can't see how it would help, but as Ackbar said, I don't see that there's any harm to it either.

Patrick Mahoney
Senior Circuit Design Engineer
Digital Enterprise Group
Intel Corp.
 

Sentential

Senior member
Feb 28, 2005
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Originally posted by: Duvie
How much out of the A64????


You know you will get the Intel designers in here tell you this doesn't exist....I will find you the official PM response to this.....I would tend to believe him, and then go on to think somehitng else is happeing here making the difference....

Much less from the A64. The most I got out of it was about 70mhz. Out of all the CPU I have had I will list their results:

2400M+ 35W = 70mhz
2600M+ = 110
Intel 640 = ~105-130 (still workin on it)
1800XP+ = 92mhz (give or take)

Generally speaking everone that has tried this method has squeezed *atleast* 50 more mhz on any platform. Results usually start to appear after the first week or so. Btw the older the CPU the less it helps. If you get a brand new CPU it tends to help *ALOT* more.
___

My process works differentally than the commonly accepted burn-in. It honestally does help, however it is all dependant on the CPU. For some it helps alot, others nothing.
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
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Will it worth the time to see it for myslef ans maybe try to understand it a bit more....

Thanks for the suggestion...

Edit:

I am currently at 2.61ghz at same vcore as before....It failed prime in 3 minutes at this speed....running 4 hours of burn in...
 

superkdogg

Senior member
Jul 9, 2004
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Originally posted by: Sentential
Its really a tad too complicated to explain it here @ anand. See thread:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=341296&highlight=Sen+burn+method

As with any good science, I'll need you to tell me "why" it works instead of just saying it works.

For you to come up with such a calculated, precise procedure, you must have been trying to get a specific result or create a certain situation, right?

Can you say why your method is supposedly helpful other than simply laying a groundwork for an incremental advance as opposed to ploppin' in CPU and giving it lots of vCore and seeing what happens?

Sorry for being skeptical, but if there is a tried and true method of burn-in that will always result in a better OC, I want to know two things: 1. Why is it the best? 2. How come nobody knew about it before/Why do designers and EE's for AMD and Intel deny that there is such a thing?
 

pm

Elite Member Mobile Devices
Jan 25, 2000
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I don't deny that something may be happening at the system level, my comments are regarding the CPU only. I have been working at a CPU designer for Intel for over 10 years starting with the Pentium and more recently on the Itanium family. I have spent most of my days in the last year determining the critical paths on a 90nm CPU ("critical paths" are the circuits that limit the frequency of a design) and finding fixes for them. I spend a good chunk of my day running shmoos (a 2D plot of voltage versus frequency used to visually help with determining circuit marginalities) and trying to isolate issues.

I have never seen a mechanism that causes a given CPU operating at a given V/T point to speed up occur on a statistically large sample of parts. Integrated circuits are fundamentally crystals that are as perfect as the manufacturer can make them when they come out of the fab. They are - to the limits of manufacturability - as perfect crystals as we can make with as few dislocations, voids, grain boundaries, vacancies and impurities as possible. Using these integrated circuits involves subjecting the crystals to sharp thermal changes as well as voltage changes that result in the crystal gradually degrading over time. Normal operation changes the crystalline structure over time for the worse. Carriers get stuck where you don't want them. Charge traps are formed at the boundary. High current wires that are thinned and under thermal stress thin even further and grain boundaries become more pronounced. Under normal operation, eventually the integrated circuit will stop working. IC's are not like cars or other things with mechanical parts. There is nothing to "wear in". They only wear out.

I am not saying that people who claim to see some speed-up from some form of burn-in type operation are lying or are wrong. Just that - based on my experience - what they are seeing is not coming from the CPU and that I'm not sure what they are seeing.

I had a lot of reservations about the overvolting advice that was going around the net several years back. The idea was to run the CPU at an elevated voltage for a few days, and then afterwards it would run faster - and this idea is just fundamentally wrong. There may be some truth to the idea of setting thermal compound - or maybe it sets the grease in the fan ball-bearings or something - but the idea that the CPU is running faster was just plain wrong. And the idea that you could bias a PMOS gate such that it is repelling electrons and then somehow have a bunch get trapped in the gate creating trapped negative charge carrier is so wrong that I could show anyone in this thread why it's crazy with a few diagrams.

I don't have any such reservations with the idea of undervolting. If people think that it helps - it might in some way that I'm not familiar with - then it's certainly not doing any harm. I don't pretend to know all of the answers - I can only relate my experience. I have never said that "burn-in" doesn't do anything - only that whatever is going on, it's external to the CPU.

It's also worth mentioning that it's easy to be fooled by 'noise'. A very small improvement, may not actually be an improvement at all. There's a great (great!) book called "Voodoo Science: the road from foolishness to fraud" by Robert L. Park which talks about people throughout history who have been fooled by the "placebo effect", and by people who have been fooled by "noise" into thinking that something exists where it isn't (cold fusion, for example). 25MHz, or even 50MHz is a very small amount of 2000MHz or 3000MHz. I have a hard time reliably and repeatably isolating my failures down at that resolution using testers, thermal systems and power supplies that cost in the high six figure range. Just as I try to keep an open-mind about improvements, it's worth people keeping an open mind regarding seeing possible low-value illusionary "signals" amongst the noise.

(link to "Voodoo Science" at Amazon.Com Check out the reviews at the bottom... I'm not the only person who really liked it. If you like reading well-written and entertaining books on science, this one is a winner)
 

3chordcharlie

Diamond Member
Mar 30, 2004
9,859
1
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Burn-in does not help a cpu.

Setting the thermal compund might though (though that should happen anyway, in the first few days or weeks). I usually see a bit of an improvement (about 1, *maybe* 2 degrees) within the first day or so of running F@H on a newly installed CPU.
 

Duvie

Elite Member
Feb 5, 2001
16,215
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71
Originally posted by: Duvie
Will it worth the time to see it for myslef ans maybe try to understand it a bit more....

Thanks for the suggestion...

Edit:

I am currently at 2.61ghz at same vcore as before....It failed prime in 3 minutes at this speed....running 4 hours of burn in...



OK I ran it after 4 hour cpu burn and it lasted 10 minutes.....I then ran it again at lower 2.6ghz and it ran for only 15 minutes....going backwards now...

I have suspended the test.....I will be happy with what I have....
 

nealh

Diamond Member
Nov 21, 1999
7,078
1
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logically cpu burn in makes no sense..sorry no one in over 6yrs of overclocking has ever proven or convinced me this exists..I suspect they are just working through some weak point outside of the cpu that lets them get a few mhz
when I first started overclocking I tried some of the suggestions...never did a thing...

I always ended up at the same point
 

Sentential

Senior member
Feb 28, 2005
677
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0
Originally posted by: superkdogg
Originally posted by: Sentential
Its really a tad too complicated to explain it here @ anand. See thread:
http://www.ocforums.com/showthread.php?t=341296&highlight=Sen+burn+method

As with any good science, I'll need you to tell me "why" it works instead of just saying it works.

For you to come up with such a calculated, precise procedure, you must have been trying to get a specific result or create a certain situation, right?

Can you say why your method is supposedly helpful other than simply laying a groundwork for an incremental advance as opposed to ploppin' in CPU and giving it lots of vCore and seeing what happens?

Sorry for being skeptical, but if there is a tried and true method of burn-in that will always result in a better OC, I want to know two things: 1. Why is it the best? 2. How come nobody knew about it before/Why do designers and EE's for AMD and Intel deny that there is such a thing?

Wish I could but I cant. Its just one of those things that I came up with that works without explination. I get alot of ideas out of the blue like this that work extrememly well yet have no basis of proof other than the results.
 

GML3G0

Golden Member
Jan 1, 2005
1,356
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0
I have no idea how this works, but it does. this article attempts to explain in but I don't know if its accurate. I was running my CPU at 2400MHz 1.5250 vcore stable. at 1.450 vcore, it failed prime95 in 4 seconds. ran this program overnight for 10 hours at 1.450 vcore, and now it has been running prime95 for several minutes as I speak, hasn't failed yet.