COVID anti-vaxxers should be denied COVID medical care

[BarkingGhostar]

Just my small and smelly opinion, but there you have it. You shouldn't be allowed medical for something you are in denial for. Also, the medical Hippocratic oath should include mandate to get all vaccines or be in denial of said oath and employment therein. Getting vaccinated is a choice, but there should be consequences for any choices in life.

 

[KMFJD]

I think that insurance companies would be salivating at this option? Profits before lives is a motto they've gotten behind more than a few times (remember pre-existing conditions?) How is the wording on the affordable care act about this. I don't like that , am against it but the medical community seems to be getting feed up with all the anti vax bs

 

[pmv]

I can't say I agree. It opens up a whole can of worms, and there are a lot of complicating factors.

In fact, on that note, I had uneasy feelings about this article

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin | Anonymous

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had jab, says an NHS consultant

www.theguardian.com

I mean, I guess it's just human nature, but ultimately, if your job is to care for the sick, just get on and do what you are paid for. Leave the moral judgementalism for your spare time. (Especially if, as here, you were trained to do that job at public expense)

 

[K1052]

I can't say I agree. It opens up a whole can of worms, and there are a lot of complicating factors.

In fact, on that note, I had uneasy feelings about this article

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin | Anonymous

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had jab, says an NHS consultant

www.theguardian.com

I mean, I guess it's just human nature, but ultimately, if your job is to care for the sick, just get on and do what you are paid for. Leave the moral judgementalism for your spare time. (Especially if, as here, you were trained to do that job at public expense)

I think there is maybe a difference between caring for the sick and being forced to witness what is essentially a mass suicide day after day after day. Just a thought for consideration.

 

[fskimospy]

I can't say I agree. It opens up a whole can of worms, and there are a lot of complicating factors.

In fact, on that note, I had uneasy feelings about this article

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin | Anonymous

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had jab, says an NHS consultant

www.theguardian.com

I mean, I guess it's just human nature, but ultimately, if your job is to care for the sick, just get on and do what you are paid for. Leave the moral judgementalism for your spare time. (Especially if, as here, you were trained to do that job at public expense)

I hear you and in the end I agree, but there’s a good argument to ask why society should move heaven and earth to help people who won’t do even the smallest thing to help themselves.

 

[pmv]

I think there is maybe a difference between caring for the sick and being forced to witness what is essentially a mass suicide day after day after day. Just a thought for consideration.

Yeah, but people are anti-vaxx for a wide variety of reasons (not everyone is from an educated middle-class background for one thing, and of course there's the already noted specific negative experiences that black people have had with the medical profession) and also it reminds me of the extreme lack-of-sympathy I have heard that people with mental health issues who self-harm I have known can often get when they turn up at A&E. I've had enough bad experiences with supercillious or judgemental medics myself, as it happens. They tend to be from certain class backgrounds, and I sometimes find myself remembering that when dealing with them.


I mean, obviously medics have the same human weaknesses as the rest of us, and can't always help what they feel/.think...But I really don't think such judgements should be formally part of the system. Next it will be 'no treatment for heart problems if you had a bad diet'.

 

[fskimospy]

Yeah, but people are anti-vaxx for a wide variety of reasons (not everyone is from an educated middle-class background for one thing, and of course there's the already noted specific negative experiences that black people have had with the medical profession) and also it reminds me of the extreme lack-of-sympathy I have heard that people with mental health issues who self-harm I have known can often get when they turn up at A&E. I've had enough bad experiences with supercillious or judgemental medics myself, as it happens. They tend to be from certain class backgrounds, and I sometimes find myself remembering that when dealing with them.


I mean, obviously medics have the same human weaknesses as the rest of us, and can't always help what they feel/.think...But I really don't think such judgements should be formally part of the system. Next it will be 'no treatment for heart problems if you had a bad diet'.

One thing to note is that the system doesn’t have to be about judgment, it can be about incentives.

 

[K1052]

Yeah, but people are anti-vaxx for a wide variety of reasons (not everyone is from an educated middle-class background for one thing, and of course there's the already noted specific negative experiences that black people have had with the medical profession) and also it reminds me of the extreme lack-of-sympathy I have heard that people with mental health issues who self-harm I have known can often get when they turn up at A&E. I've had enough bad experiences with supercillious or judgemental medics myself, as it happens. They tend to be from certain class backgrounds, and I sometimes find myself remembering that when dealing with them.

I mean, obviously medics have the same human weaknesses as the rest of us, and can't always help what they feel/.think...But I really don't think such judgements should be formally part of the system. Next it will be 'no treatment for heart problems if you had a bad diet'.

But people with heart disease and people with terminal COVID complications don't impact the system or people who staff it in the same way. The evidence of that is pretty clear at least here in the US with the extremely high level of healthcare quits we are seeing. At a certain point a lack of qualified and willing staff is going to be a concern for the entire system.

 

[WelshBloke]

I mean we will still treat them because that's what we do up they are putting a lot of vulnerable people at risk by being admitted into hospital when they could have avoided being ill in the first place.

We do our best but it's just impossible to stop an airborne virus being transmitted in a hospital when we are snowed under. And, yeah, most people are vaccinated and will be ok but there's a bunch of immunocompromised patients in hospital who won't be fine if they come into contact with it.

What do we do? Stop treating COVID patients? Stop treating immunocompromised patients?
Just try to do our best and know that people are dieing through the selfish acts of others?

Its fucking wearing. I'm tired of it.

 

[K1052]

What do we do?

Elsewhere in Europe looks like basically lock the unvaccinated out of everywhere non-essential and probably impose general vaccination mandates.

 

[Fenixgoon]

I mean we will still treat them because that's what we do up they are putting a lot of vulnerable people at risk by being admitted into hospital when they could have avoided being ill in the first place.

We do our best but it's just impossible to stop an airborne virus being transmitted in a hospital when we are snowed under. And, yeah, most people are vaccinated and will be ok but there's a bunch of immunocompromised patients in hospital who won't be fine if they come into contact with it.

What do we do? Stop treating COVID patients? Stop treating immunocompromised patients?
Just try to do our best and know that people are dieing through the selfish acts of others?

Its fucking wearing. I'm tired of it.

like K1052 said, force people's hands. don't want to get vaccinated? great, but you can't do basically anything. ohhhhh sure people will bitch and moan how they're losing their freedoms, except they have a choice. get vaccinated, and live free and interact with society. don't get vaccinated, and don't interact with society.

 

[fskimospy]

Elsewhere in Europe looks like basically lock the unvaccinated out of everywhere non-essential and probably impose general vaccination mandates.

Like I was saying in the other thread, pull an NYC - make it very hard for the unvaccinated to participate in public life. If they can't go to shows, bars, restaurants, etc., people will suddenly lose a lot of their 'hesitancy'.

 

[Greenman]

Just my small and smelly opinion, but there you have it. You shouldn't be allowed medical for something you are in denial for. Also, the medical Hippocratic oath should include mandate to get all vaccines or be in denial of said oath and employment therein. Getting vaccinated is a choice, but there should be consequences for any choices in life.

I'll agree with this, as long as it's applied across the board. Get an STD, tough luck, should have used that rubber. Car accident that you caused, blead out on the street buddy, you made your bed. Type 2 diabetes, should have had a better diet, go away.

 

[K1052]

I'll agree with this, as long as it's applied across the board. Get an STD, tough luck, should have used that rubber. Car accident that you caused, blead out on the street buddy, you made your bed. Type 2 diabetes, should have had a better diet, go away.

Lot of people end up on vents and ECMO from STDs in the average year?

 

[pmv]

Elsewhere in Europe looks like basically lock the unvaccinated out of everywhere non-essential and probably impose general vaccination mandates.

Yeah, seems as if, as ever, as with most things, the answer is a mixture of persuasion/social pressure and modest legal restrictions. "No admission to nighclubs if unvaccinated" I'm fine with. "No medical treatment" is going too far.

 

[MrSquished]

I don't think they should be denied care, but they should be a lower priority than others. A few months ago people died because they couldn't get into hospitals full of the unvaccinated. And the people that died didn't even have COVID, they need to get into a hospital for non COVID reasons. They should have kicked out a non vaxxed COVID patient and saved those other lives

 

[Greenman]

Lot of people end up on vents and ECMO from STDs in the average year?

It's the manual vent that sometimes causes the problem.

The point here is that once you start down the path of deigning medical care based on vaccine status you can apply it to just about anything that's a choice. I know we want to punish those stupid people for being stupid, but allowing them to die isn't the answer.
There are also a few around like me. I had an unpleasant and long lasting reaction to the vaccine, so I won't be getting a booster unless a variant comes along that's extremely dangerous. Am I to be deigned medical care? I'll also note that there is no qualifier in my medical insurance that requires vaccination.

I don't know how to get through to the folks that believe the vaccine is some grand conspiracy. I chat with a few and it's disheartening to hear the absurd logic they believe.
There are a few that simply don't trust big pharma, they've made mistakes in the past and will in the future. Those weigh the odds of being hospitalized against what they consider an experimental vaccine and elect not to take it. I get that, I'm going to be really pissed off if the vaccine makes my dick fall off in five years. That risk seems pretty low so I went with the jab.

 

[K1052]

Yeah, seems as if, as ever, as with most things, the answer is a mixture of persuasion/social pressure and modest legal restrictions. "No admission to nighclubs if unvaccinated" I'm fine with. "No medical treatment" is going too far.

Austria, who is having a horrible outbreak, has imposed mandatory vaccination on the population starting early next year. Germany probably going to do the same.

 

[dank69]

When I thought this same thing back when the vax first arrived, it was pointed out to me that a much better solution would be to jack up medical insurance rates for those who refuse to be vaccinated for non-medical reasons. There is already precedent for this, they jack up rates for smokers. Additionally, anti-vaxxers tend to be the same people that opposed universal healthcare. Make them pay for their poor decisions. Refusing service is a bad road to go down, although in cases where hospitals are at or near capacity, non-vaccinated people suffering from covid should be at the very bottom in terms of priority.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

Yeah, but people are anti-vaxx for a wide variety of reasons (not everyone is from an educated middle-class background for one thing, and of course there's the already noted specific negative experiences that black people have had with the medical profession) and also it reminds me of the extreme lack-of-sympathy I have heard that people with mental health issues who self-harm I have known can often get when they turn up at A&E. I've had enough bad experiences with supercillious or judgemental medics myself, as it happens. They tend to be from certain class backgrounds, and I sometimes find myself remembering that when dealing with them.


I mean, obviously medics have the same human weaknesses as the rest of us, and can't always help what they feel/.think...But I really don't think such judgements should be formally part of the system. Next it will be 'no treatment for heart problems if you had a bad diet'.

Vaccination status should be the first tiebreaker once hospitals start getting to triage situation again with the only exception being the tiny minority of people who cannot safely be vaccinated.

 

[K1052]

The point here is that once you start down the path of deigning medical care based on vaccine status you can apply it to just about anything that's a choice. I know we want to punish those stupid people for being stupid, but allowing them to die isn't the answer.

None of those other lifestyle choices puts a debilitating strain on the healthcare system that puts the lives and health of everybody else at risk for lack of capacity. Unvaccinated COVID patients are pushing their risk onto the rest of the population without our consent. I haven't, yet, made the case that they should be denied treatment but we should be very clear eyed about the consequences of their poor decisions and that everybody else is paying a price for it and how that choice isn't the same as others.

There are also a few around like me. I had an unpleasant and long lasting reaction to the vaccine, so I won't be getting a booster unless a variant comes along that's extremely dangerous. Am I to be deigned medical care? I'll also note that there is no qualifier in my medical insurance that requires vaccination.

You are presently considered fully vaccinated. Even if future variants are problematic total erosion of your protection is unlikely. You might get sick but you're much less likely to end up taking up a hospital bed assuming you don't have other risk factors.

I don't know how to get through to the folks that believe the vaccine is some grand conspiracy. I chat with a few and it's disheartening to hear the absurd logic they believe.
There are a few that simply don't trust big pharma, they've made mistakes in the past and will in the future. Those weigh the odds of being hospitalized against what they consider an experimental vaccine and elect not to take it. I get that, I'm going to be really pissed off if the vaccine makes my dick fall off in five years. That risk seems pretty low so I went with the jab.

The short answer is you probably can't. Disinformation and misinformation travels too widely and quickly now and a lot of people are isolated from reality in those bubbles. Until it happens to them it is fake and even then they might not believe it.

 

[SteveGrabowski]

The point here is that once you start down the path of deigning medical care based on vaccine status you can apply it to just about anything that's a choice.

Disagree with this slippery slope argument. Other personal choices aren't overwhelming our hospitals and forcing them into triage standards. You're comparing apples to grapefruits here. Smoking, diabetes, STDs, etc aren't blowing up in exponential waves that no health system can be prepared for.

I know we want to punish those stupid people for being stupid, but allowing them to die isn't the answer.

I'd rather punish the antivaxxers than punish the doctors/nurses. You have to pick one and right now you're picking punishing the doctors/nurses.

 

[balloonshark]

What about the people not going to the emergency room or doctor's appts because they don't want to mingle with folks who could be infected? I just had my Dr. appt. last week and they do covid testing in the building. I had to go since my Dr. was leaving and I needed to know if he was starting his own practice, moving, etc. I was breathing the same air as those coming in and getting tested. I don't take that risk in my personal life so why should I continue to be ok with it when I'm seeing my doctors? Hell, I need new glasses and won't even set up a appt. to see an optometrist. Next week I have a transesophageal echo to determine if I need my 3rd open heart surgery. Procedures and surgeries are pushed way back because of covid and things would be better if everyone just got the damn vaccine. My freedom has been on hold because others are enjoying their freedom to spread around a mostly manageable disease.

See these hospitalizations. When they hit 1000 our hospitals were are the breaking point and they are headed back up without a break. This is what 50% fully vaxxed looks like.

 

[WelshBloke]

Elsewhere in Europe looks like basically lock the unvaccinated out of everywhere non-essential and probably impose general vaccination mandates.

I mean I agree with you but we don't get to make that choice in the hospital. And it's us dealing with the fallout.

 

[fleshconsumed]

I can't say I agree. It opens up a whole can of worms, and there are a lot of complicating factors.

In fact, on that note, I had uneasy feelings about this article

ICU is full of the unvaccinated – my patience with them is wearing thin | Anonymous

Most of the resources we are devoting to Covid in hospital are being spent on people who have not had jab, says an NHS consultant

www.theguardian.com

I mean, I guess it's just human nature, but ultimately, if your job is to care for the sick, just get on and do what you are paid for. Leave the moral judgementalism for your spare time. (Especially if, as here, you were trained to do that job at public expense)

I think anti-vaxxers are akin to drunk drivers. They not only endanger themselves but everybody else around them as well. And it's not just that, they also advocate everybody else drive drunk. Because it's safer for some dumbass reason. If I was a medical professional I would be pissed if I had to refuse care to ordinary folk because hospital beds were filled to capacity with people like that.

It's the manual vent that sometimes causes the problem.

The point here is that once you start down the path of deigning medical care based on vaccine status you can apply it to just about anything that's a choice. I know we want to punish those stupid people for being stupid, but allowing them to die isn't the answer.
There are also a few around like me. I had an unpleasant and long lasting reaction to the vaccine, so I won't be getting a booster unless a variant comes along that's extremely dangerous. Am I to be deigned medical care? I'll also note that there is no qualifier in my medical insurance that requires vaccination.

I don't know how to get through to the folks that believe the vaccine is some grand conspiracy. I chat with a few and it's disheartening to hear the absurd logic they believe.
There are a few that simply don't trust big pharma, they've made mistakes in the past and will in the future. Those weigh the odds of being hospitalized against what they consider an experimental vaccine and elect not to take it. I get that, I'm going to be really pissed off if the vaccine makes my dick fall off in five years. That risk seems pretty low so I went with the jab.

You're using the same argument as to why we cannot tax the rich - because what happens if they start taxing upper class next, then middle class, and then you.

Bullshit.

You do what makes sense. Whether it's taxing the rich, or using vaccination status in triage considerations. I don't think antivaxers should be denied care, but taking into account vaccination status when triaging is absolutely the right thing to do.