• We’re currently investigating an issue related to the forum theme and styling that is impacting page layout and visual formatting. The problem has been identified, and we are actively working on a resolution. There is no impact to user data or functionality, this is strictly a front-end display issue. We’ll post an update once the fix has been deployed. Thanks for your patience while we get this sorted.

Court: 'Under God' In Pledge Is Constitutional

Page 5 - Seeking answers? Join the AnandTech community: where nearly half-a-million members share solutions and discuss the latest tech.
Where do we get our mores, tenets and atmospherics? I mean whats to stop someone from strangling you on whim? Or why do we care about anything? Why do we treat others as we wish to be treated? Not a question for the pubs of course just in general...

I'm agnostic and caustic but i'd say I was influenced by GOD as a derivative of society in which I live..
 
I find it amusing watching the godless squirm over this ruling.

😀

You're short sighted enough to find it 'funny' to find the principle of a secular government trashed when you are in the group getting treated better than equal.

So if the President and Congress were to further erode the principle, you would find it hilarious, presumably.

If they started putting religious symbols and phrases - of your religion - into official government statements, symbols, policies, you are cracking up.

There's a reason the founding fathers pushed for there to be constitutional rights for individuals and minority groups that the majority could not violate.

It's because there are idiots who are happy to be the majority who will violate them - who take pleasure whether out of selfishness or lack of respect for others or other 'tyranny of the majority' mob mentality to do this all the way to the point where it's been historically that the majority can kill the 'others' - idiots who will laugh at going down this road.

There's some good reading on the history here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pledge_of_alleigance

Note the story of Jehova's Witnesses objecting to have to say the pledge in 1940 - before the religious words were added, the pledge at all - who sued for protecting their freedom of religion. Note how the Supreme Court ruled against them and said the government had the right to force them to say it in schools. Note how some idiots began acts of discrimination and violence against the Jehova's Witnesses over this legal challenge.

You would have been laughing wildly. The Supreme Court reversed itself a year later. I guess that wasn't too funny for you.
 
Last edited:
I'm always amazed that "under God" is the only sticking point people ever seem to have with the pledge when "indivisible" is not only offensive to anyone who subscribes to a doctrine of consensual union, but is also patently false.

Excellent point. I actually have some issue with the entire idea of children pledging to anything, but in those cases where someone wanted to say it I at least want them to have the option of doing so without falsifying their own morals and beliefs.
 
Excellent point. I actually have some issue with the entire idea of children pledging to anything, but in those cases where someone wanted to say it I at least want them to have the option of doing so without falsifying their own morals and beliefs.

I think the word 'indivisible' is a bit vague in its meaning.

I did a little checking and didn't find a clear answer, but first, I figured, if it redated the civil war, the odds go up it wasn't about secession. Bingo, it was created in 1892.

But it was written by a socialist, and intended for any nation to be able to use - pretty much completely undermining the phrase being relevant to the sovereignity of states.

It was a pledge designed to promote a sense of social unity (rightly or wrongly), and THAT'S the sense of indivisible - the unity as a nation of people, not about states.

Now, I have my own opinions about the excesses of such unity and nationalism - when it's 'care about others', great, when it's used by a demagogue to stir the people to support launching aggressive war or other such things, that's another matter. I don't like, as you don't, the idea of kids being indoctrinated this way, no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes the grownups feel when they're busy being a mob. (Hello, 'Hitler Youth'.)

When you reference childrens' 'own morals and beliefs', I question how legitimate such notions are (I suspect you have at least some agreement).

But there's the adult issue as well, the pledge was made the national pledge for all ages.

As I wrote in a draft post I didn't post on this:

"Americans are pretty much free to support any policy they want anyway, leaving this as an act with no real effect - just a feel good tribalism.

It seems a throwback to the days of serfs and knights swearing allegiance to this king or that, which even then could be pretty fluid."

The daughter of the pledge's author objected to the adding of the religious words to the pledge - it violated his intent.

But there was a cold war on, and the recently converted-to-conventional-Christianity Eisenhower, spurred by a preacher he watched who gave a sermon and encouraged exactly this change, was happy to obglige - ironically, considering his upbringing was Jehova's Witness, the group who had objected to the pledge.

How further ironic is it that this change came about when religious leaders - notably the Knights of Columbus - began adding the words when they said it and the trigger was Eisenhower hearing this sermon and pushing for the change as a result, while today's court used a tortured claim to say that the phrase is 'not religious'.

How Orwellian can they get, that those two words are not religious?

It seems that the 'it's ceremonial, not religious' is a popular 'argument' for gutting the secularization of the government in a concession to the religious 'mob'.

Some are more equal than others indeed.

It's about as credible as claiming that Sharia Law is based on ceremony, not religion.
 
Wait and see how many of them remain godless on their deathbeds.


I know holy rollers love that line, but it doesn't carry the weight it used to. These days it's more common to go "godless" after spending decades struggling with the logical inconsistencies of being "godly." I won't go into the multitudes of people out there (myself included) that fall into this category, but suffice to say if someone like Mother Theresa ends up a doubter, then your comment is decidedly less poignant.

Fear of dying and the regrets it produces are not a foundation for proof of a supreme being.
 
You're short sighted enough to find it 'funny' to find the principle of a secular government trashed when you are in the group getting treated better than equal.

Ours is not a secular government. It is a government that will not force individuals to worship God. Look at you. I assume you are godless, yet you enjoy the same freedoms in America that I do.


Wait and see how many of them remain godless on their deathbeds

You and I both know what their future holds. No need to state it here because they won't listen. No man leaves this earth not believing in a living God.

🙂
 
You and I both know what their future holds. No need to state it here because they won't listen. No man leaves this earth not believing in a living God.

I know several who did..and who told me as much on their deathbeds. I'll be one as well. I was dead for 13.7 billion years before I was alive and it didn't bother me in the slightest. There is nothing to fear in death. Wishful/fearful thinking about an afterlife just takes away from the dignity of a life well lived.
 
I think the word 'indivisible' is a bit vague in its meaning.

I did a little checking and didn't find a clear answer, but first, I figured, if it redated the civil war, the odds go up it wasn't about secession. Bingo, it was created in 1892.

But it was written by a socialist, and intended for any nation to be able to use - pretty much completely undermining the phrase being relevant to the sovereignity of states.
The simple fact is that the word means what it means to the people who are saying it today. Whether it had anything to do with sovereignty historically is only one of a few issues that layer the meaning of the word in the pledge as people read it today.

I think if you asked 100 people on the street what they thought indivisible meant in the pledge you wouldn't find many who thought that the idea of a unified self-image was the most significant connotation of the word. Of course that's blind conjecture on my part so it's barely worth the pixels it's rendered on but I think it's a decent conjecture as conjectures go.

The history is a very interesting point though and I'm glad you looked into it. I do find it interesting that the language predates the civil war, but that doesn't necessarily mean that it never had anything to do with sovereignty. If it was penned by a socialist then it seems legitimate that it was primarily ideological but their strongly statist ideology would have the anti-sovereignty meaning nestled not far beneath the surface.
It was a pledge designed to promote a sense of social unity (rightly or wrongly), and THAT'S the sense of indivisible - the unity as a nation of people, not about states.

Now, I have my own opinions about the excesses of such unity and nationalism - when it's 'care about others', great, when it's used by a demagogue to stir the people to support launching aggressive war or other such things, that's another matter. I don't like, as you don't, the idea of kids being indoctrinated this way, no matter how warm and fuzzy it makes the grownups feel when they're busy being a mob. (Hello, 'Hitler Youth'.)
I go one step further than you on this score. After wrestling with conflicted feelings about group identity (which is a very good place to be) I decided I didn't have much used for group identity insofar as it is compelled by institutions. I LOVE certain group identities, but only ones built on totally free consent which is grounded on individual liberty flowing from individual apprehension of objective reality (that live in the house that Jack built).

It seems a throwback to the days of serfs and knights swearing allegiance to this king or that, which even then could be pretty fluid."
The particular sentiments may have been fluid, but the intent was always the same: to create a group identity which could be used a s a tool to subjugate the individuals.

The daughter of the pledge's author objected to the adding of the religious words to the pledge - it violated his intent.
I don't much like the religious content of "under God" (judges' opinions to the contrary be damned), but if the pledge is truly a national token of identity then one person's intent shouldn't really have that much bearing on the discussion. If it's about group identity (ugh!), then the group gets what the group wants.
...[Jehovah's Witness anecedote]...
It seems that the 'it's ceremonial, not religious' is a popular 'argument' for gutting the secularization of the government in a concession to the religious 'mob'.

Some are more equal than others indeed.

It's about as credible as claiming that Sharia Law is based on ceremony, not religion.
Well that depends on what your definition of "based on" is based on - or something like that. 😛 (Just to be clear, I agree wholeheartedly with you on this one.)
 
Last edited:
Where do we get our mores, tenets and atmospherics? I mean whats to stop someone from strangling you on whim? Or why do we care about anything? Why do we treat others as we wish to be treated? Not a question for the pubs of course just in general...

I'm agnostic and caustic but i'd say I was influenced by GOD as a derivative of society in which I live..

Read the works of Locke, Rousseau, and Hobbes - they don't use God to justify morality and the origins of civil society.
 
Ours is not a secular government. It is a government that will not force individuals to worship God. Look at you. I assume you are godless, yet you enjoy the same freedoms in America that I do.




You and I both know what their future holds. No need to state it here because they won't listen. No man leaves this earth not believing in a living God.

🙂

Troll, troll, troll your boat....

PS
WWYBYWB?
 
You and I both know what their future holds. No need to state it here because they won't listen. No man leaves this earth not believing in a living God.

Here's one of your problems right here: the pompous, arrogant certitude you use to label, judge, and deride those of us who have the nerve not to see things your way. And you guys call liberals elitists, heh.

You may believe, but you certainly don't know. It's troubling that an adult can't figure out the difference. You should consider this, and while you're at it read up on the influence of the Masons on the creation of this country. The founding fathers spoke often and explicitly on the evils of the European systems, and specifically molded our nation to avoid them. Separation of church and state is a foundation of this country, no matter what you christian revisionists do or say.
 
Too bad the seven virgins your God set aside for you when you enter heaven will go to waste.

Really tho... What good will seven do you? So... I'm wondering do the woman also get seven male virgins...

What do you do with them? I mean... are you suppose to go to sex heaven? What if you thought 5 of them were ugly? Could you tell God to replace them with some cute ones? .... So, what if you got em all pregnant who's gonna pay for the child care? What if you had 500 kids in 'heaven' and you decided you didn't want to be a dad...

Can you be a dead beat dad in heaven? What if you hated your kids? Would heaven then be just hell?

Oh yeah... Heaven would be so boring with out the internet and computers and cars to drive around... And you gotta live up there "FOREVER" I think heaven is HELL. You would be bored out of your frigen mind. If that's heaven then no thanks....

Good luck to the rest of you.
 
Really tho... What good will seven do you? So... I'm wondering do the woman also get seven male virgins...

What do you do with them? I mean... are you suppose to go to sex heaven? What if you thought 5 of them were ugly? Could you tell God to replace them with some cute ones? .... So, what if you got em all pregnant who's gonna pay for the child care? What if you had 500 kids in 'heaven' and you decided you didn't want to be a dad...

Can you be a dead beat dad in heaven? What if you hated your kids? Would heaven then be just hell?

Oh yeah... Heaven would be so boring with out the internet and computers and cars to drive around... And you gotta live up there "FOREVER" I think heaven is HELL. You would be bored out of your frigen mind. If that's heaven then no thanks....

Good luck to the rest of you.
Another thing about Heaven, you'll be sharing it with fucks like Jerry Falwell among many. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.
 
pretty much been my take on it. they try to make the case that saying "under god" some how forces religious beliefs on someone, but if you don't believe in god, then it's really meaningless so who gives a fuck? it doesn't even define a God. It doesn't say "One nation under the God of Israel" it doesn't say "One nation under the God Zeus." Hell how many fucking atheists have you heard say "jesus christ" or "oh my fucking god" a goddamn shitload including myself.
Agreed; basically, I see it as a deistic "God."

They could say "one nation under our Creator", I guess.

Still, this is up for the states to decide.
 
Unless there was a law forcing you to recite the pledge under penalty if you don't it's really no big deal. Just leave out the Bullshit God part if it bothers you.
 
Agreed; basically, I see it as a deistic "God."

They could say "one nation under our Creator", I guess.

Still, this is up for the states to decide.

I always thought the Universe was god.. or the Sun... So... They could substitute that withe In universe we trust. Maybe In the Universe we trust? Hmmm I wonder if that would just piss off the religious mind fucks around here?

Oh well...

They could say "one nation under our Universe ... Sounds pretty good to me tho. 😉
 
Back
Top