Court: 'Under God' In Pledge Is Constitutional

[Sclamoz]

Another thing about Heaven, you'll be sharing it with fucks like Jerry Falwell among many. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.

I've always thought if these wackos are actually right then hell is the place to be anyways. and eternity of sex, drugs, gambling and good music vs. evangelicals Mormons and shitty christian rock. Not exactly a hard decision.

 

[kage69]

Confidence will always expose the weakness in others

Incorrect, although facts can indeed have that effect. I don't consider you weak, just indoctrinated enough to not be bothered by common sense and logic. That you do it in a manner that hints at a superiority complex just makes it all the more laughable, particularly when you take into account the concept of humility present in the ethos you claim to follow. Don't worry though, I'm quite used to seeing that. Separation of church and state is the issue here, not your fair-weather piety.

I am certain about what I know.

You can be certain about observable things, sure, but if we're still talking about your previous statement that I quoted, no, you're not. You can believe it, fine, but you don't know. You can attempt to revise the definitions of English to fit your conclusions in the same manner as you've done with American History, but you're really not fooling anyone save those who share your ideological affliction. Sorry.

Are you?

Am I certain about you not possessing omniscient powers that can see beyond the grave? Absolutely. Am I certain that you are missing the difference between the terms "believe" and "know"? Why yes, yes I am.

 

[kage69]

Another thing about Heaven, you'll be sharing it with fucks like Jerry Falwell among many. Doesn't sound like a good time to me.

Presuming you believe in such a construct, I would have a hard time believing that Jerry would be going there. Limbo would be as far as he'd make it I'd wager.

 

[Perknose]

Our country was founded by unselfconsciously religious men. There doesn't appear to have been an atheist among them.

Nevertheless, they passionately and specifically did not want the state and religion to mix, and feared the consequences thereof.

Therefore, "God" does not appear once in our entire Constitution.

Even in our Declaration of Independence, these entirely religious men
intentionally kept the word "God" out, substituting the word "Creator" so as to be more inclusive.

But the cold war excesses of McCarthyism brewed up a toxic mix of right-wing anti-communist xenophobes which, combined with the organizational "pressure group" know-how of the conservative Catholic "Knight's of Columbus" saddled our curency and our pledge with "God."

It's now a political and social fait accompli.

The less hysterical and parochial of us will simply have to continue to put up with it, here in this often militantly "religious" and knee-jerk xenophobic country.

 

[Toe Poe Gee Joe]

Separation of church and state is the issue here, not your fair-weather piety.

Separation of Church and State is a concept created by the godless. The fact is that, as a Christian, I will bring my Church (and my faith) into any activities of State that I participate in.

The Constitution prohibits me from passing a law requiring you to believe as I do.

And remember, "In God we Trust" is in your pocket. Sweet!

 

[Harvey]

As of March 9, 2010, 4,382 American troops have died in the war of lies started your mercifully EX-Traitor In Chief and his criminal cabal.

And where again did Bush do this for God's greater glory?

Since you asked, as reported by "The Guardian" (U.K.), at Sharm el-Sheikh in 2003.

George Bush: 'God told me to end the tyranny in Iraq'

President told Palestinians God also talked to him about Middle East peace

The Guardian, Friday 7 October 2005

George Bush has claimed he was on a mission from God when he launched the invasions of Afghanistan and Iraq, according to a senior Palestinian politician in an interview to be broadcast by the BBC later this month.

Mr Bush revealed the extent of his religious fervour when he met a Palestinian delegation during the Israeli-Palestinian summit at the Egpytian resort of Sharm el-Sheikh, four months after the US-led invasion of Iraq in 2003.

One of the delegates, Nabil Shaath, who was Palestinian foreign minister at the time, said: "President Bush said to all of us: 'I am driven with a mission from God'. God would tell me, 'George go and fight these terrorists in Afghanistan'. And I did. And then God would tell me 'George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq'. And I did."

Mr Bush went on: "And now, again, I feel God's words coming to me, 'Go get the Palestinians their state and get the Israelis their security, and get peace in the Middle East'. And, by God, I'm gonna do it."

Nobody's dumb ass deity has any place in the official instruments and literature of our nation founded on the separation of church and state.

Except for your deity, evidently.

Since I'm an atheist, exactly what deity would that be?

You are a hypocrite, Harvey. Your scathing hatred of religion, while conveniently giving no weight to its benefit to civilization, is nothing more than the face of precisely the ignorant and intolerant dogmatic hate you claim to oppose.

That's a load of self-serving bullshit. I don't "hate" religion. I know and respect its historical roots and purposes, but I see no need for it in an age informed by scientific observation and near-instantaneous worldwide communication.

Simply being non-religious doesn't exempt you from the capacity for cruelty, close-mindedness, and barbarity inherent in our species, Harvey, and your method of argument is proof of it. If God were removed from all consciousness, we'd still be killing each other, we'd still be intolerant, and the KKK would find reasons to hate black people.

Neither does being religious exempt people from the capacity for cruelty, close-mindedness, and barbarity. As I said, earlier, you're welcome to your beliefs... UNTIL those of any one religion try to use the laws of the land impose and enforce their beliefs on others. That is the specific reason the Constitution mandates the separation of church and state.

If you want an example of "cruelty, close-mindedness, and barbarity" in the name of religion, you need look no further than Sacrilege's reply to me, earlier in this thread:

I think we can all agree, if non-believers were put to death, America would be a greater nation.

I'm a non-believer so as long as "all" includes me, I take it as a direct statement that "America would be a greater nation" if I were put to death.

I don't recall ever stating that "America would be a greater nation" if believers were put to death.

He may have intended that as sarcasm, but I have no way of knowing that, and I know for sure that there are those who would kill and have killed others in the name of one deity or another, including here in the United States of America.

 

[kage69]

Separation of Church and State is a concept created by the godless.

So you're saying the Founders were godless? That's simply not true. Do you have any points to present that aren't pure opinion mixed with christian revisionism?

The fact is that, as a Christian, I will bring my Church (and my faith) into any activities of State that I participate in.

I suppose that's your prerogative, no matter how badly it reflects on you as an informed American. Your participation from the bottom however (as a voter), is an entirely different thing than the operation of government from the top, and thus no real explanation for denying the basis of separation as envisioned by the Founders.

The Constitution prohibits me from passing a law requiring you to believe as I do.

The absurdly irrelevant nature of that statement makes me think you're done here.

And remember, "In God we Trust" is in your pocket. Sweet!

I rest my case.

 

[Sclamoz]

Separation of Church and State is a concept created by the godless. The fact is that, as a Christian, I will bring my Church (and my faith) into any activities of State that I participate in.

The Constitution prohibits me from passing a law requiring you to believe as I do.

And remember, "In God we Trust" is in your pocket. Sweet!

Gentlemen

The affectionate sentiments of esteem & approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist association, give me the highest satisfaction. my duties dictate a faithful & zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more & more pleasing.

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man & his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, thus building a wall of separation between church and state. [Congress thus inhibited from acts respecting religion, and the Executive authorised only to execute their acts, I have refrained from presenting even occasional performances of devotion presented indeed legally where an Executive is the legal head of a national church, but subject here, as religious exercises only to the voluntary regulations and discipline of each respective sect.] Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect & esteem.

(signed) Thomas Jefferson
Jan.1.1802.


Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

From the treaty of Tripoli.

 

[kage69]

"Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Danbury Baptist Association, CT., Jan. 1, 1802



Edit: Dang, Scalmoz beat me to it.

 

[Toe Poe Gee Joe]

So you're saying the Founders were godless? That's simply not true. Do you have any points to present that aren't pure opinion mixed with christian revisionism?

Not at all. I'm saying that free lance god haters are promoting this concept.

I suppose that's your prerogative, no matter how badly it reflects on you as an informed American. Your participation from the bottom however (as a voter), is an entirely different thing than the operation of government from the top, and thus no real explanation for denying the basis of separation as envisioned by the Founders.

Your gratuitous slam notwithstanding, my grasp of the information needed to be an effective American will be overlaid by my faith. (aka my church)

The absurdly irrelevant nature of that statement makes me think you're done here.

Are you quitting already? The First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Me and mine are prohibited from establishing a religion and forcing you to believe it.

I rest my case.

I declare victory.

 

[kage69]

And remember, "In God we Trust" is in your pocket. Sweet!

As long as you remember when and where it came from. There's no doubt in my mind when comparing Jefferson to McCarthy, who is closer to "godlessness." Might have something to do with witch hunts not being the most patriotic or religiously sensitive of past times.

We differ on the taste test though, as I find unaltered genuine articles to have a profound sweetness all their own.

 

[kage69]

Not at all. I'm saying that free lance god haters are promoting this concept.

Free lance god haters like... Thomas Jefferson. No, your just maligning those who don't share your particular flavor of religion and the revisionist agenda it sees as necessary. The christian victim syndrome and the insecurity that comes with it rears it's ugly head yet again...

Your gratuitous slam notwithstanding, my grasp of the information needed to be an effective American will be overlaid by my faith. (aka my church)

It's not a slam if you go on to prove my point, but the word I used was 'informed,' not 'effective.' Of course you hold your church up as the preeminent and superior institution, your weak grasp of and contempt for American History has already communicated this. The question is, can you represent that position without the christian revisionism, or does your church mandate what is in essence just religious propaganda?

Are you quitting already? The First Amendment states, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion". Me and mine are prohibited from establishing a religion and forcing you to believe it.

Heavens no! You did, by offering up a hypothetical situation where you can both make laws, and actually force people to believe what you do. You and yours are really struggling here.

I declare victory.

Unfortunately for you, that's about as accurate as your other declarations in this thread.

 

[ericlp]

Our country was founded by unselfconsciously religious men. There doesn't appear to have been an atheist among them.

Nevertheless, they passionately and specifically did not want the state and religion to mix, and feared the consequences thereof.

Therefore, "God" does not appear once in our entire Constitution.

Even in our Declaration of Independence, these entirely religious men
intentionally kept the word "God" out, substituting the word "Creator" so as to be more inclusive.

But the cold war excesses of McCarthyism brewed up a toxic mix of right-wing anti-communist xenophobes which, combined with the organizational "pressure group" know-how of the conservative Catholic "Knight's of Columbus" saddled our curency and our pledge with "God."

It's now a political and social fait accompli.

The less hysterical and parochial of us will simply have to continue to put up with it, here in this often militantly "religious" and knee-jerk xenophobic country.

Amen Brother.... Well said.