Court sets new rules for taser use

[jlee]

At that point I'll pursue legal action to my fullest extent, and dedicate my life to getting them removed from public trust. There is NO excuse for that. Force can only be used to counter force, not to coerce compliance. Of course, I wouldn't be in that situation either because I would have just laid down and put my hands behind my back already.

Your first paragraph illustrates that you do not understand the use of force laws in my state.

627:5 Physical Force in Law Enforcement. –
I. A law enforcement officer is justified in using non-deadly force upon another person when and to the extent that he reasonably believes it necessary to effect an arrest or detention or to prevent the escape from custody of an arrested or detained person, unless he knows that the arrest or detention is illegal, or to defend himself or a third person from what he reasonably believes to be the imminent use of non-deadly force encountered while attempting to effect such an arrest or detention or while seeking to prevent such an escape.

Force can absolutely be used for compliance.

In fact, that would be the BEST the officer could hope for. ANYONE (officer or not) uses more force than basic hands on when I'm not being a threat and I'll consider it an unlawful attack on my person, which I will respond to with escalating violence as necessary to protect myself. Since I'm every bit as armed, and every bit as well trained, as any law enforcement officer, that could have some dire consequences.

Your second paragraph indicates that you are an idiot. You're also cocky and arrogant. "Basic hands on" is force, and making assumptions such as yours might get you killed someday. You also don't make the decision on what's excessive force. The side of the road is not your own personal court system, and you are not the judge.

This guy was handcuffed and in the back of my car. He did not attack or threaten either myself or my partner, however he was (obviously) actively not compliant. Would you say that we were not justified in spraying him when he refused to get his upper body back in the car? At what point do you think we should escalate beyond soft hand control when no immediate physical threat to our safety is present?

 

[Zebo]

I need to wear this to the next FOP golf tourney, I think the guys would get a kick out of it... do they have it with a collar?

 

[Zebo]

OC spray is garbage just pisses people off puts them in berserker mode... Taser immobilizes and cause major attitude adjustment from my experience. Yes I have been hit with both.

 

[jlee]

OC spray is garbage just pisses people off puts them in berserker mode... Taser immobilizes and cause major attitude adjustment from my experience. Yes I have been hit with both.

OC also cross-contaminates like a sonofabitch. However, we don't have Tasers here so there's not much else to choose from. Fortunately it worked.

 

[Zebo]

That sucks. What these kids don't understand taser is safe compared to physically restraining people. No more dislocated shoulders of suspects. No more punches in the face. No more dangerous choke holds. Not to mention officer safty. I really don't understand opposition. Unless they think criminals have the right to simply refuse to be arrested/detained.

 

[Nik]

That sucks. What these kids don't understand taser is safe compared to physically restraing people. No more dislocated shoulders of suspects. No more punches in the face. No more dangerous choke holds. Not to mention officer safty. I really don't understand opposition. Unless they think criminals have the right to simply refuse to be arrested/detained.

If cops weren't assholes about physical restraint, there wouldn't be dislocations to begin with. There's absolutely no reason to put your whole weight on your knee into a subject's back to subdue them.

Cops get away with so much bullshit because they're assholes to people who don't deserve it.

And then they wonder why the public cries out when they use proper force against someone who actually DOES deserve it.

 

[Zebo]

If cops weren't assholes about physical restraint, there wouldn't be dislocations to begin with. There's absolutely no reason to put your whole weight on your knee into a subject's back to subdue them.

Cops get away with so much bullshit because they're assholes to people who don't deserve it.

And then they wonder why the public cries out when they use proper force against someone who actually DOES deserve it.

Cops arnt the assholes people are. I was one of those asshole, wanna be thugs, till about 16 and decided to straighten up, funny since then 22 years later I've never been in the back of a police car or been tased. All it takes is being respectful and complying with what they ask (within the law) and 99% of the time they'll send you on your way unless you did something.

 

[spidey07]

If you choose not to comply you need to do so understanding that the officer has no way to discern whether or not you pose a threat to him and others around you, and he is right to react as though you are dangerous.

Decisions and actions have consequences. Not complying is a personal decision one is free to make and as such free to suffer the consequences of getting tased.

Getting tased or shot is the decision of the perp, not the officer.

 

[Nik]

Cops arnt the assholes people are. I was one of those asshole, wanna be thugs, till about 16 and decided to straighten up, funny since then 22 years later I've never been in the back of a police car or been tased. All it takes is being respectful and complying with what they ask (within the law) and 99% of the time they'll send you on your way unless you did something.

Non-compliance doesn't justify officer over reaction.

 

[M0RPH]

Oh no. Does this mean that cops can no longer tase 10 year old girls who are on the ground having a temper tantrum and refusing to comply when asked to take a bath by their mother?

Most cops are a-holes. Nuff said.

 

[lykaon78]

I don't carry a Taser either but I have taken the ride, damn things a bitch. At any rate if you get out of your car and start walking towards me when I have told you to stay in the car, your going to have a bad day. By statute we can order you to remain in the vehicle, if you don't I take it as a threat and will handle you accordingly. In this day in age you can't afford to give someone the benefit of the doubt, you have to assume the worse. I am going home at the end of my shift, period. Better to be tried by twelve than carried by six.

I tend to give all police officers the benefit of the doubt. Like boomhower said, I want my cops going home at night.

However, I want elected officials that put a strong police chief in place that makes sure all use of force is adequately reviewed, justified, and appropriate actions are taken against police officers that abuse their power.

Stories like this are what I'm looking for:
http://news.cincinnati.com/article/20090823/NEWS01/308230013/Chief--Taser-use-violated-procedure

Cops like the one in this story and the unions that back them give all other police a black eye.

 

[SarcasticDwarf]

That sucks. What these kids don't understand taser is safe compared to physically restraining people. No more dislocated shoulders of suspects. No more punches in the face. No more dangerous choke holds. Not to mention officer safty. I really don't understand opposition. Unless they think criminals have the right to simply refuse to be arrested/detained.

It is not safe compared to it, it is merely a different tool. The problem that people and officers have is that it is UNLIKE any other tool previously used. It is less deadly than a nightstick, but more deadly than restraint by hand. Unfortunately, it also kills outwardly healthy people with heart/neurological issues. At the same time officers have few restrictions on its use.

 

[Cdubneeddeal]

Oh no. Does this mean that cops can no longer tase 10 year old girls who are on the ground having a temper tantrum and refusing to comply when asked to take a bath by their mother?

Most cops are a-holes. Nuff said.

Is your statement from personal experience or your simply going off what you see on the internet?

Sure, some police officers have attitudes. Imagine getting bitched out for just trying to do your job? I would be unhappy as well but every officer that I have ever dealt with has been cordial. You know why? Because I understand the fact they have a job to do. Do unto others as you would have them done unto you.

 

[Zebo]

Non-compliance doesn't justify officer over reaction.

Cops are human and make mistakes. And get fired over it. But they still have a right to MAKE you comply with FORCE if necessary in all 50 states. Anyone who has a problem with that is usually a social misfit who has a problem with authority, or hardened criminals.

I am biased too - I come from the some people need a good killin' school so pretty much anything they do is okay with me.

 

[ShawnD1]

Oh no. Does this mean that cops can no longer tase 10 year old girls who are on the ground having a temper tantrum and refusing to comply when asked to take a bath by their mother?

If it's the same story I'm thinking of, the mother should have been tased just for being a terrible parent.

 

[Zebo]

It is not safe compared to it, it is merely a different tool. The problem that people and officers have is that it is UNLIKE any other tool previously used. It is less deadly than a nightstick, but more deadly than restraint by hand. Unfortunately, it also kills outwardly healthy people with heart/neurological issues. At the same time officers have few restrictions on its use.

Every study shows taser safest. No ones EVER died from taser despite outlandish claims by human rights groups in OP. It simply does not work attacking heart instead it impacts sensory motion and the motor control not internal organs.

Has it occurred to you a druggie or heart patient may die in custody regardless of taser use? Sure it happens all the time. Stress, it's just that time, OD, whatever people die. Even Amnesty admits their stats are clueless hyperbole, not based on science.

Rigorous, independent, impartial study of their use and effects is urgently needed to determine what role Tasers may have played in the 351 deaths and to determine appropriate guidelines for future Taser use.

 

[Nik]

Cops are human and make mistakes. And get fired over it. But they still have a right to MAKE you comply with FORCE if necessary in all 50 states. Anyone who has a problem with that is usually a social misfit who has a problem with authority, or hardened criminals.

I am biased too - I come from the some people need a good killin' school so pretty much anything they do is okay with me.

Get fired over it? HA. Once in a blue moon. Meanwhile, it happens all the time. Hell, watch COPS and see five cops tackle one guy who's running away from them and they practically beat the shit out of him for running. Completely unnecessary.

 

[PrinceofWands]

Your first paragraph illustrates that you do not understand the use of force laws in my state.

Force can absolutely be used for compliance.

Your second paragraph indicates that you are an idiot. You're also cocky and arrogant. "Basic hands on" is force, and making assumptions such as yours might get you killed someday. You also don't make the decision on what's excessive force. The side of the road is not your own personal court system, and you are not the judge.

This guy was handcuffed and in the back of my car. He did not attack or threaten either myself or my partner, however he was (obviously) actively not compliant. Would you say that we were not justified in spraying him when he refused to get his upper body back in the car? At what point do you think we should escalate beyond soft hand control when no immediate physical threat to our safety is present?

I wasn't describing the law, I was offering my opinion on the morality. It's how I believe things 'should be', and the perceptions which I operate under. While I can get into trouble for acting on those opinions when they differ from established law, nothing can keep me from holding those ideals.

There is a world of difference between pulling someones arm back to put on the bracelets and hitting them with a taser to make them stand up, or spraying them with oc for legally demonstrating without threats or violence just because someone doesn't want them to. Of course you have to be restrained if you're being arrested. You have no choice but to be held, patted down, cuffed, and put into the car. You bet. But you are under NO requirement to assist with the process, as long as you don't resist. And when you don't resist there is NEVER a reason for the police to actively inflict harm (ie holding a joint at a lock point during the pat down is reasonable, choking them or twisting a joint to the point of active pain is not).

You are incorrect that I don't make the decision on what is excessive force. EVERY human being makes that decision for themselves and you just bloody well have to deal with the consequences. It's a check/balance on your power, and that's the way it is. The person may get into trouble after from the courts, but that doesn't take away their God given right to do it (it just punishes them for the choice, right or wrong). Every being decides how far they will allow themselves to be pushed before they fight back. Law is empty and meaningless...only morality/justice/ideology matter and they are wholly subjective.

Kicking out a window (or headbutting, or shoulder charging, or whatever) is an act of violence. Destruction of property is an act of violence. These things are certainly reasons to respond with escalated force. Refusing to give your name is not. Demanding to be arrested rather than signing a citation is not. Refusing a field sobriety test is not. Etc.

 

[PrinceofWands]

OC spray is garbage just pisses people off puts them in berserker mode... Taser immobilizes and cause major attitude adjustment from my experience. Yes I have been hit with both.

It works often enough to warrant carrying it. I'm DAMN glad I've had mine on many occasions. It's also totally failed to help a few times, and lost me valuable time and position in the process, but *shrug*. In my opinion OC is far lower force than tasers, and therefore fulfills a different role.

 

[Zebo]

It works often enough to warrant carrying it. I'm DAMN glad I've had mine on many occasions. It's also totally failed to help a few times, and lost me valuable time and position in the process, but *shrug*. In my opinion OC is far lower force than tasers, and therefore fulfills a different role.

You think so? Have you tried? Not me. I'd much rather get hit with taser given a choice, it's over in seconds vs. hours of pain.

 

[theflyingpig]

At that point I'll pursue legal action to my fullest extent, and dedicate my life to getting them removed from public trust. There is NO excuse for that. Force can only be used to counter force, not to coerce compliance. Of course, I wouldn't be in that situation either because I would have just laid down and put my hands behind my back already.

In fact, that would be the BEST the officer could hope for. ANYONE (officer or not) uses more force than basic hands on when I'm not being a threat and I'll consider it an unlawful attack on my person, which I will respond to with escalating violence as necessary to protect myself. Since I'm every bit as armed, and every bit as well trained, as any law enforcement officer, that could have some dire consequences.

You're the best case scenario for any cop who likes to use excessive force. You know why? I'll tell you why. When you start escalating violence you'll get shot. You only think you're well armed. You only think you're well trained. None of your training will matter when you're facing two cops. Because they will be operating in pairs. You will escalate against one, the other will see your weapon, he'll draw down on you, you'll do something stupid and end up dead. Thats what will happen to you PrinceofWands. You'll get shot dead, and the cops will get away with it. All because of your foolish attitude. People like you always end up beaten down or dead because you can't keep your mouth shut. I can tell already that you talk a lot of shit. One of these days you're gonna meet someone like me, who wont stand for it. You're gonna get hurt. Bad. Everyone knows this.

 

[SunnyD]

Disagree. The overwhelming majority of use will not result in death. Hitting someone with a police baton in the head is more likely to kill them and baton strikes aren't even considered deadly force. The courts have all carefully considered and articulated the level of force a taser represents and I agree with where they place it in the spectrum.

Hey, I agree that you guys have a tough job out there with all the loons running around. Hell, I feel that most of them shouldn't even get a court date, since all it will do is tie them up in the system until they eventually get released and do it again anyway.

What I don't agree with is the notion that cops have to be in the mindset that they're going to need to take down each and every person they encounter. That is the reason these court cases are happening, and that's the same reason cops are getting their elitist mentality these days. I'm sorry, a badge does not give you the right to fire on me preemptively unless I am a clear and obvious threat (eg: firing a gun, coming at you brandishing a deadly weapon, etc.). Tasers are simply too deadly to be used in the way most cops are currently using them. And as I said, out here, pretty much every cop I see has backup, even just to write a speeding ticket. All the added stress does is just turn cops into evil, suspicious people with stress issues. Not the kind of people I want patrolling our streets or being my neighbor, thanks.

 

[waggy]

In fact, that would be the BEST the officer could hope for. ANYONE (officer or not) uses more force than basic hands on when I'm not being a threat and I'll consider it an unlawful attack on my person, which I will respond to with escalating violence as necessary to protect myself. Since I'm every bit as armed, and every bit as well trained, as any law enforcement officer, that could have some dire consequences.

While i agree that there are many times that officers fall to the tazer to fast (the 10 yr old girl, the guy trying to commit sucide on the ledge etc) but this is just silly.

you are a idiot. you escalate something with the cops you are going to get shot and the cop is going to go home.

just comply and get in the damn car. there is plenty of time after to sue and fight back.

 

[jlee]

Hey, I agree that you guys have a tough job out there with all the loons running around. Hell, I feel that most of them shouldn't even get a court date, since all it will do is tie them up in the system until they eventually get released and do it again anyway.

What I don't agree with is the notion that cops have to be in the mindset that they're going to need to take down each and every person they encounter. That is the reason these court cases are happening, and that's the same reason cops are getting their elitist mentality these days. I'm sorry, a badge does not give you the right to fire on me preemptively unless I am a clear and obvious threat (eg: firing a gun, coming at you brandishing a deadly weapon, etc.). Tasers are simply too deadly to be used in the way most cops are currently using them. And as I said, out here, pretty much every cop I see has backup, even just to write a speeding ticket. All the added stress does is just turn cops into evil, suspicious people with stress issues. Not the kind of people I want patrolling our streets or being my neighbor, thanks.

How many of the thousands of Taser uses do you know in-depth details for? Or, are you basing your opinion on the isolated incidents that happen to hit the mainstream media?

I find it ironic how you're telling me what my mindset would be, when you're not the one who would be calling my family to tell them I'm dead.

If I ever stop you, I will be polite, cordial and respectful until you give me reason to change my demeanor towards you. You'll never see my self-preservation side unless you deserve it...so I'm not sure what your problem is. Just because you have backup doesn't mean everything is hunky-dory. Did you forget about the four officers murdered in connection with a single traffic stop earlier this year? Or the four officers in the coffee shop?

 

[SunnyD]

If I ever stop you, I will be polite, cordial and respectful until you give me reason to change my demeanor towards you. You'll never see my self-preservation side unless you deserve it...so I'm not sure what your problem is.

That's all I ask for. There's absolutely no reason for you to be approaching me with your hand wrapped around a weapon. If the case dictates it, then yes. But when someone is passively resisting, you have no right to abuse them.