Court OKs Firing Over Confederate Flag

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Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
10,597
0
0
Chobits

If a large percentage of Southerns owned slaves I might agree with you that the main item of contention of the Civil War was slavery. Very few southerns owned slaves, they did believe that some far off people(federal government) should not tell them how to run their state.

As for the flag on the tool box, it should have been removed just as the Rigid tool calenders and such were removed and for the same reasons.

 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,404
8,575
126
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: przero

You people forget there are AS MANY black racist today as white!!!

Was that a Gallup poll?

gallup's methods are suspect at best and the reporting is downright criminal
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: przero
Nope, that was a "I am out in the real world every day" poll.

Ah. Statistics? Margin of error? I didn't think so. Sorry, but I think you're full of it.
 

przero

Platinum Member
Dec 30, 2000
2,060
0
0
Thank you for such insight. Now go outside in the real world and LISTEN to different people and how they treat others around them. the problem with people like you is that you believe polls and media and never investigate things for yourself. By the way I'm not impressed by the "elite" title. thought you people were a little more thoughtful. Guess I was wrong.
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: przero
Thank you for such insight. Now go outside in the real world and LISTEN to different people and how they treat others around them.

I have, and do. People being hostile to one another doesn't constitute racism.

the problem with people like you

On the topic of racism/stereotypes ... "you people"? Lovely.

is that you believe polls and media and never investigate things for yourself.

Is that so? Thanks for telling me, I was looking for someone to analyze me better than myself, and you filled the spot. To whom do I make out the check?

By the way I'm not impressed by the "elite" title.

Me neither, really. You're just grasping for argument now.

thought you people were a little more thoughtful. Guess I was wrong.

Indeed. Now shoo.

 

AndrewR

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
11,157
0
0
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: przero
Nope, that was a "I am out in the real world every day" poll.

Ah. Statistics? Margin of error? I didn't think so. Sorry, but I think you're full of it.

Racists exist in every race, not just the white one. There are certainly people in this country who are racist. Else there wouldn't be a pejorative meaning to the word "gaijin".
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: przero
Nope, that was a "I am out in the real world every day" poll.

Ah. Statistics? Margin of error? I didn't think so. Sorry, but I think you're full of it.

Racists exist in every race, not just the white one. There are certainly people in this country who are racist. Else there wouldn't be a pejorative meaning to the word "gaijin".

I don't disagree, but przero suggests that there are as many black racists as white. That's, a) his subjective opinion, to which I do not subscribe, and b) false, in my subjective opinion.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: przero
Nope, that was a "I am out in the real world every day" poll.

Ah. Statistics? Margin of error? I didn't think so. Sorry, but I think you're full of it.

Racists exist in every race, not just the white one. There are certainly people in this country who are racist. Else there wouldn't be a pejorative meaning to the word "gaijin".

I don't disagree, but przero suggests that there are as many black racists as white. That's, a) his subjective opinion, to which I do not subscribe, and b) false, in my subjective opinion.

Yet, you have nothing to discredit him with.
 

ElFenix

Elite Member
Super Moderator
Mar 20, 2000
102,404
8,575
126
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: AndrewR
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Originally posted by: przero
Nope, that was a "I am out in the real world every day" poll.

Ah. Statistics? Margin of error? I didn't think so. Sorry, but I think you're full of it.

Racists exist in every race, not just the white one. There are certainly people in this country who are racist. Else there wouldn't be a pejorative meaning to the word "gaijin".

I don't disagree, but przero suggests that there are as many black racists as white. That's, a) his subjective opinion, to which I do not subscribe, and b) false, in my subjective opinion.

well based on the fact that in the US at least theres something on the order of 6x as many white people i do find it hard to believe, but i bet the percentages are similar.
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Yet, you have nothing to discredit him with.

99% of the people in your town hate Munster cheese. I've been there, I know.

You don't agree? No statistic to prove me wrong? I must be right.

Please.

 

calbear2000

Golden Member
Oct 17, 2001
1,027
0
0
Originally posted by: Chobits
The Civil War had little to do with Slavery. State's rights my friend.


Not necessarily. The intial rift was between states and federal rights and this is seen as early as the convention to create a ratify the constitution where those in the North favored a strong National Government (Federalists) while the Anti-Federalists, including Thomas Jefferson [to think a man of his calibur would be arguing for slavery toward the end of his life], were concentrated more in the South. Even look at some of the most prominent writings of the time - the Virginia and Kentuky Resolutions basically screamed "We love state's rights"

Sure of course there were issues that didn't deal with state's rights that went to the courts (and considering John Marhshall was the justice the Federal Government always won. Go Marshall Go!) but the issue that nagged the most was SLAVERY. I'm not saying that the North, or even a lot of abolishonists were not racist (quite the contrary they were! Very few abolishonists were like William Lloyd Garrison) but they realized that slavery was holding back the south from an economic perspective and the North was advancing and building things everywhere (The fact that the North had a super super majority of the Railroads helped it) while the south was stuck in this self defeating pattern thanks to Eli.


Look at legislation/rulings/bills/laws/whatever from the time period. The most important/ most talked about (sorry if I can't draw more specific examples. Its been a year since I've really studied US History) dealt with slavery. The Missouri Compromise, Fugitive Slave Law (where the North chose not to adhere to Federal Laws), Dred Scott Case, Uncle Toms Cabin, the Republic of Texas, Bleeding Kansas, and more highlighted the time period. Also during this time the South was on its cotton high exporting millions of tons of cotton (which proved to hurt itself in the longrun as once war started places in Britian had huge surplus of cotton that workers for a while didn't have to worry about losing their jobs. That and they would rather lose cotton than wheat from the breadbasket of the north) which further ingrained slavery into their society

In order to protect slavery the South maintained its position that it was state's rights and even went as far as creating an image that a slave in the south was much happier resting and fishing on the banks of a river thant it would be in the north earning subsistence wages (the key would be in the North they were free and were actually paid money. If they chose they could leave. True most lived with menial paying positions but at least they had the option to leave and that in itself is a huge principal) and they began to spew their crap.

With the beginning of the civil war with the attack on Sumter the South IMMEDIATELY lay their cause behind the State's Rights issue. By doing this it would make their cause seem palpable so that they could attract help from European Nations. If they could just stay on their turf and get help they were absolutely fine (though even had they won chances are they would have quickly fallen apart as internal strife was already building up)

Lincoln, a sympathizer to the "cause", knew NOT to intially make the issue over slavery because as states ceded he needs those on the Ohio river - kentucky, tennesee, maryland becuase they were key states and had he immediately declared the war as a war on slavery they would've also ceded. He even said something to the effect of, "If I could free the slaves and save the Union I would. If I could keep slavery as is and save the Union I would" to show in the beginning that his trump was the Union (this is also when the USA began to be refferred as "That IS the USA" not "They ARE the USA") By the time of the Emanciptation the North got the victory it wanted (well...somehwat wanteD) and Lincoln made the smartest move he coud -he issued the emancipation proclamation. While it is true that it freed slaves only in rebellious states the key factor is that by issuing that he made sure that the war was a war on slavery; Southern States were hiding their true cause behind the veil of State's rights. True there is merit to that but most of the complaints lead to the establishment of slavery. By doing this he cuts off any European support they MIGHT have gotten (they got some British help) because in Europe by now Slavery was dead and no leader of a European country wanted to be seen as interveneing on the side of slavery.

After the war ended the next three amendments, 13th (which banned slavery...ironically though before the break of the war there was a revision that would keep slavery but not allow it to expand) 14th and 15th delt specifically with slavery and the black man further enforcing the idea that the war was a war over slavery.

The rest as they say, is history.


Let me repeat one more time: The South used the idea of State's rights in order to maintain slavery which was their key goal. They did complain over other issues and very vocally but if you study what was going on much of it revolved around slavery.

Hell I have a friend who was in Georgia during her 10th grade year and it seems they don't study US History there...they study "State History"

Thank god slavery is gone, and I would easily vote in favor of the employer.

Though I never understood with the longing desire of the "old [racist] south" and stuff such as Civil War Re-enactments.

Kiss it goodbye. The issue of state's rights is LONG dead and it will never ever be a factor anymore. If you cannot realize that you are a person in need of great help


Good post Chobits.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: calbear2000
Originally posted by: Chobits
The Civil War had little to do with Slavery. State's rights my friend.


Not necessarily. The intial rift was between states and federal rights and this is seen as early as the convention to create a ratify the constitution where those in the North favored a strong National Government (Federalists) while the Anti-Federalists, including Thomas Jefferson [to think a man of his calibur would be arguing for slavery toward the end of his life], were concentrated more in the South. Even look at some of the most prominent writings of the time - the Virginia and Kentuky Resolutions basically screamed "We love state's rights"

Sure of course there were issues that didn't deal with state's rights that went to the courts (and considering John Marhshall was the justice the Federal Government always won. Go Marshall Go!) but the issue that nagged the most was SLAVERY. I'm not saying that the North, or even a lot of abolishonists were not racist (quite the contrary they were! Very few abolishonists were like William Lloyd Garrison) but they realized that slavery was holding back the south from an economic perspective and the North was advancing and building things everywhere (The fact that the North had a super super majority of the Railroads helped it) while the south was stuck in this self defeating pattern thanks to Eli.


Look at legislation/rulings/bills/laws/whatever from the time period. The most important/ most talked about (sorry if I can't draw more specific examples. Its been a year since I've really studied US History) dealt with slavery. The Missouri Compromise, Fugitive Slave Law (where the North chose not to adhere to Federal Laws), Dred Scott Case, Uncle Toms Cabin, the Republic of Texas, Bleeding Kansas, and more highlighted the time period. Also during this time the South was on its cotton high exporting millions of tons of cotton (which proved to hurt itself in the longrun as once war started places in Britian had huge surplus of cotton that workers for a while didn't have to worry about losing their jobs. That and they would rather lose cotton than wheat from the breadbasket of the north) which further ingrained slavery into their society

In order to protect slavery the South maintained its position that it was state's rights and even went as far as creating an image that a slave in the south was much happier resting and fishing on the banks of a river thant it would be in the north earning subsistence wages (the key would be in the North they were free and were actually paid money. If they chose they could leave. True most lived with menial paying positions but at least they had the option to leave and that in itself is a huge principal) and they began to spew their crap.

With the beginning of the civil war with the attack on Sumter the South IMMEDIATELY lay their cause behind the State's Rights issue. By doing this it would make their cause seem palpable so that they could attract help from European Nations. If they could just stay on their turf and get help they were absolutely fine (though even had they won chances are they would have quickly fallen apart as internal strife was already building up)

Lincoln, a sympathizer to the "cause", knew NOT to intially make the issue over slavery because as states ceded he needs those on the Ohio river - kentucky, tennesee, maryland becuase they were key states and had he immediately declared the war as a war on slavery they would've also ceded. He even said something to the effect of, "If I could free the slaves and save the Union I would. If I could keep slavery as is and save the Union I would" to show in the beginning that his trump was the Union (this is also when the USA began to be refferred as "That IS the USA" not "They ARE the USA") By the time of the Emanciptation the North got the victory it wanted (well...somehwat wanteD) and Lincoln made the smartest move he coud -he issued the emancipation proclamation. While it is true that it freed slaves only in rebellious states the key factor is that by issuing that he made sure that the war was a war on slavery; Southern States were hiding their true cause behind the veil of State's rights. True there is merit to that but most of the complaints lead to the establishment of slavery. By doing this he cuts off any European support they MIGHT have gotten (they got some British help) because in Europe by now Slavery was dead and no leader of a European country wanted to be seen as interveneing on the side of slavery.

After the war ended the next three amendments, 13th (which banned slavery...ironically though before the break of the war there was a revision that would keep slavery but not allow it to expand) 14th and 15th delt specifically with slavery and the black man further enforcing the idea that the war was a war over slavery.

The rest as they say, is history.


Let me repeat one more time: The South used the idea of State's rights in order to maintain slavery which was their key goal. They did complain over other issues and very vocally but if you study what was going on much of it revolved around slavery.

Hell I have a friend who was in Georgia during her 10th grade year and it seems they don't study US History there...they study "State History"

Thank god slavery is gone, and I would easily vote in favor of the employer.

Though I never understood with the longing desire of the "old [racist] south" and stuff such as Civil War Re-enactments.

Kiss it goodbye. The issue of state's rights is LONG dead and it will never ever be a factor anymore. If you cannot realize that you are a person in need of great help


Good post Chobits.

It is revisionist history so it is not a good post.
 

Mill

Lifer
Oct 10, 1999
28,558
3
81
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Yet, you have nothing to discredit him with.

99% of the people in your town hate Munster cheese. I've been there, I know.

You don't agree? No statistic to prove me wrong? I must be right.

Please.

He lives in the US just like us. He has his experience to count on. Since you have never been to my town you have no experience. Boy you suck at debating.
 

konichiwa

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
15,077
2
0
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: konichiwa
Yet, you have nothing to discredit him with.

99% of the people in your town hate Munster cheese. I've been there, I know.

You don't agree? No statistic to prove me wrong? I must be right.

Please.

He lives in the US just like us. He has his experience to count on. Since you have never been to my town you have no experience. Boy you suck at debating.

Come on, you're splitting hairs. Do we need to do this over again?

99% of the people in the US are xenophobic and prejudiced against foreigners. I live here, I know.

You don't agree? No statistic to prove me wrong? I must be right.

Please.

Not to mention the fact that I have, on many occasions, been to Birmingham, AL. I suck at debating? You haven't been able to back up your original assertion so far...yet you're the self-titled debater. Okie-dokie.
 

calbear2000

Golden Member
Oct 17, 2001
1,027
0
0
Originally posted by: Millennium
Originally posted by: calbear2000
Originally posted by: Chobits
The Civil War had little to do with Slavery. State's rights my friend.


Not necessarily. The intial rift was between states and federal rights and this is seen as early as the convention to create a ratify the constitution where those in the North favored a strong National Government (Federalists) while the Anti-Federalists, including Thomas Jefferson [to think a man of his calibur would be arguing for slavery toward the end of his life], were concentrated more in the South. Even look at some of the most prominent writings of the time - the Virginia and Kentuky Resolutions basically screamed "We love state's rights"

Sure of course there were issues that didn't deal with state's rights that went to the courts (and considering John Marhshall was the justice the Federal Government always won. Go Marshall Go!) but the issue that nagged the most was SLAVERY. I'm not saying that the North, or even a lot of abolishonists were not racist (quite the contrary they were! Very few abolishonists were like William Lloyd Garrison) but they realized that slavery was holding back the south from an economic perspective and the North was advancing and building things everywhere (The fact that the North had a super super majority of the Railroads helped it) while the south was stuck in this self defeating pattern thanks to Eli.


Look at legislation/rulings/bills/laws/whatever from the time period. The most important/ most talked about (sorry if I can't draw more specific examples. Its been a year since I've really studied US History) dealt with slavery. The Missouri Compromise, Fugitive Slave Law (where the North chose not to adhere to Federal Laws), Dred Scott Case, Uncle Toms Cabin, the Republic of Texas, Bleeding Kansas, and more highlighted the time period. Also during this time the South was on its cotton high exporting millions of tons of cotton (which proved to hurt itself in the longrun as once war started places in Britian had huge surplus of cotton that workers for a while didn't have to worry about losing their jobs. That and they would rather lose cotton than wheat from the breadbasket of the north) which further ingrained slavery into their society

In order to protect slavery the South maintained its position that it was state's rights and even went as far as creating an image that a slave in the south was much happier resting and fishing on the banks of a river thant it would be in the north earning subsistence wages (the key would be in the North they were free and were actually paid money. If they chose they could leave. True most lived with menial paying positions but at least they had the option to leave and that in itself is a huge principal) and they began to spew their crap.

With the beginning of the civil war with the attack on Sumter the South IMMEDIATELY lay their cause behind the State's Rights issue. By doing this it would make their cause seem palpable so that they could attract help from European Nations. If they could just stay on their turf and get help they were absolutely fine (though even had they won chances are they would have quickly fallen apart as internal strife was already building up)

Lincoln, a sympathizer to the "cause", knew NOT to intially make the issue over slavery because as states ceded he needs those on the Ohio river - kentucky, tennesee, maryland becuase they were key states and had he immediately declared the war as a war on slavery they would've also ceded. He even said something to the effect of, "If I could free the slaves and save the Union I would. If I could keep slavery as is and save the Union I would" to show in the beginning that his trump was the Union (this is also when the USA began to be refferred as "That IS the USA" not "They ARE the USA") By the time of the Emanciptation the North got the victory it wanted (well...somehwat wanteD) and Lincoln made the smartest move he coud -he issued the emancipation proclamation. While it is true that it freed slaves only in rebellious states the key factor is that by issuing that he made sure that the war was a war on slavery; Southern States were hiding their true cause behind the veil of State's rights. True there is merit to that but most of the complaints lead to the establishment of slavery. By doing this he cuts off any European support they MIGHT have gotten (they got some British help) because in Europe by now Slavery was dead and no leader of a European country wanted to be seen as interveneing on the side of slavery.

After the war ended the next three amendments, 13th (which banned slavery...ironically though before the break of the war there was a revision that would keep slavery but not allow it to expand) 14th and 15th delt specifically with slavery and the black man further enforcing the idea that the war was a war over slavery.

The rest as they say, is history.


Let me repeat one more time: The South used the idea of State's rights in order to maintain slavery which was their key goal. They did complain over other issues and very vocally but if you study what was going on much of it revolved around slavery.

Hell I have a friend who was in Georgia during her 10th grade year and it seems they don't study US History there...they study "State History"

Thank god slavery is gone, and I would easily vote in favor of the employer.

Though I never understood with the longing desire of the "old [racist] south" and stuff such as Civil War Re-enactments.

Kiss it goodbye. The issue of state's rights is LONG dead and it will never ever be a factor anymore. If you cannot realize that you are a person in need of great help


Good post Chobits.

It is revisionist history so it is not a good post.

Please post your non-revisionist history version.

I didn't read through all the flaming in this thread but I don't think I've seen anyone counter his points